Terrorist attack in Mumbai India - What to do?

[1776 Rebel]

Let me put the following question/invitation for comment in a personal context.

I narrowly missed being caught up in the World Trade center hell of 9/11. I and my colleagues had many customers die in that inferno. I watched as the smoke from the pile burned that day. The acrid smell is still lodged in my brain. Terrorism struck close to me. I fear that at some point I or my loved ones will encounter it again.

I am situationally aware. Try to be proactive when possible and have some training in martial arts and certainly enjoy shooting and guns for all my life. I make no pretense of being a ninja or a SEAL. At my age and condition I would be lucky to get one or two blows in a physical confrontation before being overwhelmed by a younger stronger man. I haven't dropped the hammer on anyone. I don't really enjoy the thought of such. But with all the above I do think about things.

I am sitting here as I write this, watching the terrorist attack take place in Mumbai India. A large modern city. Many killed and injured. Unlike the WTC it looks to be an ongoing, multiple incident, multiple BG situation. Hostages are taken. Not a good scene to be in or near.

This could certainly happen to us. Pure luck of the draw. It could be at your company Christmas party at some hotel. It could be while your on a date with the wife. You could have just parked at the hotel to catch a movie or play. Heck it could be while you are at a movie or play  (remember Moscow?). You catch my point.

Two of the sites are high end hotels. So here. If caught up in such a situation, what is the check list that you go thru your head as you are engulfed by the events. Certainly this would have many variants. One would be if this happened in a city in the US. Another would be if you were overseas. The latter almost certainly means you are without a firearm. Even here you might not be armed when you and destiny meet up.

I assume the first thing as the boy scouts say is remain calm. Second in my book, is the last part of "fight of flight". I would try to get the heck out of there asap. I always like to seperate myself from whatever the majority of folks are doing. So if everyone is barricading themselves in their rooms I probably would be looking for exits. But what if there are active shooters? Multiple active shooters. They have fully auto AK's, lots of ammo, grenades, and a death wish. This is not your Columbine kid, mad at the world cause someone made fun of him. It isn't some criminal who wants my wallet or car. I'd be quite happy to give those to anyone if it means avoiding an escalation.

Again I have no intention, nor funds, to spend the next six months at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. I don't think about killing and shooting folks all day long. I am just a regular non descipt working guy who has barely enough time or energy to mow the lawn regularly (just being honest). How do you guide yourself thru the thousand decisions that would occur from minute to minute? This might be a great topic to cover on Best Defense in fact.

[MikeBjerum]

1776,

First of all I'm glad you missed out on 9/11, and I feel for you with the mixed feelings you must live with both because of it happening and because you were spared.

I believe that I live much like you have described:  Not that I can't afford to get high end training, but I choose to spend in other ways (personal choice - good, bad or otherwise);  I try to be prepared, aware of surroundings and situations, and try to avoid panic by thinking through things on a lowered level of urgency (kinda like the old gunfighter that described being a good gunfighter as taking your time to make an accurate shot and do it quickly); and I try to pick up all the information I can from those that know by listening to them, reading and watching (demonstrations, tv, dvd's, etc.).

The main thing I have done is that I think about where I am going and why every time I get ready to leave home.  I analyze what the setting will be, who will be there, and what could happen.  I attire and arm myself appropriately, think through what I know of the setting on the way and how I will "scope it out" when I arrive, and when I arrive I get the lay of the land and plan where I want to be in any given setting while there.

I will not go to the metro area unarmed, unless I'm going to a setting where you are not allowed to carry.  I actually got frisked three weeks ago  It amazed me how not having a gun kept my mind constantly thinking of what if whenever I shifted to a new setting (not dwelling, but passing thought in every new setting that was more than usual).

Fight or Flight ... No one ever knows what they will do until faced with the situation.  I have decided that if I am ever on the receiving end of a cooperate or you will die threat I am probably going to die anyway, so why not go out fighting.  If I'm not in the place of immediate danger controlled evacuation or hiding of loved ones and self would be in order.  If in an outside position with the chance to enter and intervene I'm thinking that I'm not the Lone Ranger and would either want more support or a damn good reason to charge in.

I pray that I don't ever need to use my preparations, but I fear that in today's world and our incoming administration that we stand as good a chance as ever as needing to defend ourselves.

[1776 Rebel]

Some photos of the nighttime attacks. Car bombs, shootings, fire etc...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081126.windiagallery1126/PhotoGallery01?slot=1

[Rastus]

Listen to Michael's podcasts...he has some real gems in there.  Get ready for Best Defense...it's gonna be a big help.  Buy training if you can afford it.  Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, USSA...somewhere.  USSA has an advanced concealed carry class that is not expensive and could help...geting to Tulsa would be a problem if you don't have frequent flyer miles.  All the training programs are good for your head (instructors always pass on gems) and you learn a lot even if it is an intro to pistol or rifle class ($200+/- with Ammo).  Go to www.usshootingacademy.com and just read their course outlines that are in pdf...that will help.

Get a concealed carry if you can....there is some state out west that I think will issue to non-residents if you have problems where you are.  Keep a gun and ammo nearby in the car at all times.  Being aware is the big thing...I watch for out-of-the-ordinary hoping it will be enough.  Like MB said, "...in queasy times queasy things happen."  If something is going down somewhere avoid the cities as best you can.  During 911 I was 650 miles from home in Baton Rouge, had flown through three airports the day before....my wife was to hunker down with the boys and avoid contact with the outside (right!) and I stayed away long enough that some virus had time to show up....one scenario is for sick terrorist to fly around passing it to us.  Get some food....enough to stay in for at least 3 weeks....go to Sams, buy a sack of sugar, beans, rice, flour, etc. for what is really cheap and store it....you might not like it but it will go a long way.   At least 5% of the professionals I know are doing these things consistently over the last few years.....

Heck...I'm just rambling.  MB had a great podcast a few weeks ago about bug-out preparations...that would be a good podcast to listen to if you haven't heard it...which one is it guys?

[1776 Rebel]

Rastus. Not rambling, good thoughts. I did listen to MB's podcast. Good but off my premise a bit.

But let me focus back on my original scenario. This is a situation that is not preparation dependent. Stockpiling food and water isn't going to get you out of a multiple shooter nest. In fact I don't know if returning fire is even a good thing. I remember the old military saying in Viet Nam that if you receive automatic fire that is good enough to call in artillery. So the act of returning fire when it won't specifically save you or loved ones may actually attract a freaking hand grenade. Not to be flip but I don't think Gunsite trains for that. Some of the courses that I think might have some relevance here (CQB) are restricted to LE or Military. Basic CCW stuff we can assume is a given.

 I am in a hotel or public place and it explodes in automatic fire and explosions. Today proves that this is not some abstract thought exercise but reality. So are there even rules to follow? What should my goals be? How do I maneuver? How do I use my environment to help me? If I am armed what makes sense in terms of use of that firearm? Is this more relevant to Les Stroud than Clint Smith and Pincus? Matter of fact Rob Pincus is on this forum now. I would love to hear what he has to say. Also I forget the gentlemans name but USSA-1 is a trainer also.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Rastus. Not rambling, good thoughts. I did listen to MB's podcast. Good but off my premise a bit.

But let me focus back on my original scenario. This is a situation that is not preparation dependent. Stockpiling food and water isn't going to get you out of a multiple shooter nest. In fact I don't know if returning fire is even a good thing. I remember the old military saying in Viet Nam that if you receive automatic fire that is good enough to call in artillery. So the act of returning fire when it won't specifically save you or loved ones may actually attract a freaking hand grenade. Not to be flip but I don't think Gunsite trains for that. Some of the courses that I think might have some relevance here (CQB) are restricted to LE or Military. Basic CCW stuff we can assume is a given.

 I am in a hotel or public place and it explodes in automatic fire and explosions. Today proves that this is not some abstract thought exercise but reality. So are there even rules to follow? What should my goals be? How do I maneuver? How do I use my environment to help me? If I am armed what makes sense in terms of use of that firearm? Is this more relevant to Les Stroud than Clint Smith and Pincus?

Get the hell OUT. If you can't, hide, if found by any of the threats do what ever it takes to stop the immediate threat to you hit 'em with a chair, bottle, bite their throat out if that's what it takes, but continue to get as far from the center of the action as possible, using anything that comes to hand as a weapon to destroy any one who poses a threat to you along the way. You know you can stab someone to death with a pencil or pen. in this situation remember, humans are animals, act like one. If you are close enough to a guy with a rifle to strangle him, his rifle is of very little use if you think about it, he needs room to get the barrel in line with you, use things like that to aid your escape.

[Rastus]

Get the hell OUT. If you can't, hide, if found by any of the threats do what ever it takes to stop the immediate threat to you hit 'em with a chair, bottle, bite their throat out if that's what it takes, but continue to get as far from the center of the action as possible, using anything that comes to hand as a weapon to destroy any one who poses a threat to you along the way. You know you can stab someone to death with a pencil or pen. in this situation remember, humans are animals, act like one. If you are close enough to a guy with a rifle to strangle him, his rifle is of very little use if you think about it, he needs room to get the barrel in line with you, use things like that to aid your escape.

I think Tom is on the mark here.  My deal about the food, etc..was to stay out of harms way if things got squirrely I got off the subject...sorry my rant. 

First I think maybe rethink what you believe is needed for training.  It's not just about we as the head of the house can do but how each family member reacts.  Family members need to know to do something productive...which I think, at a minimum, means they need to know themselves how to lessen their exposure, take a look here:  http://www.usshootingacademy.com/viewFile.aspx?id=30  it's a course for the family not exactly on your scenario but I think it would be of tremendous benefit.  For instance...you are at the mall, the world goes boom, and a little girl stands straight up in the open in the mall crying with bullets flying...as opposed to dropping to the ground and looking for concealment or cover...big difference and just maybe all the difference between life and tragedy.   

Dirgressing again because this is desireable but not necessarily practical for heads of all households to attend....my next inclination to train for your scenario is to train like a protection force:  http://www.usshootingacademy.com/training_course.aspx?id=29  ...this one is 12 days with prerequisites.  I couldn't hack it just because I am terribly out of shape.

I think I'm settling on some very basic training for the family.  Not to be expert gun handlers, but how to recognize harm using that SECURE protocol that's in the first link or something similar.  Next, as head of the house more training for you so that you will know and can "push" that down to the wife, older children, etc.  More training doesn't just mean going to classes.  For instance, when I go out shooting now I shoot steel or dispersed targets and try to incorporate moving and "getting off the X" like we've seen in some Shooting Gallery shows. 

Shooting Gallery has been incredibly helpful for incorporating techniques that really make a difference beyond standing in one place shooting.  Heck, when I look back at what I did not know just before I got turned on to Shooting Gallery vs. what I now know just by watching and going to a couple of classes at USSA it's unbelievable what I picked up....I look at my compadres I used to shoot with who haven't done that sort of thing, reflect on their abilities and processes....then I catch a chill just thinking about what I don't know and what I could learn with more training....that didn't come out real well but I think you will know what I mean.

Shoot some IDPA and USPSA for recreation. 

But, I also think, besides just moving to get out of the way, to be more complete by learning the things Janich, Rausch, Pincus, etc. teach to include, say, ..... when not to use the gun are what I need the most of...that and losing 60 lbs.

I'm here to learn so I don't mind getting straightened out for having wrong thinking and bad ideas...these are the things I'm thinking right or wrong.   So, some of you guys with millitary experience and real life training...I'd appreciate your thoughtful comments on what to do also and where my thinking goes awry.

[PegLeg45]

Get the hell OUT. If you can't, hide, if found by any of the threats do what ever it takes to stop the immediate threat to you hit 'em with a chair, bottle, bite their throat out if that's what it takes, but continue to get as far from the center of the action as possible, using anything that comes to hand as a weapon to destroy any one who poses a threat to you along the way. You know you can stab someone to death with a pencil or pen. in this situation remember, humans are animals, act like one. If you are close enough to a guy with a rifle to strangle him, his rifle is of very little use if you think about it, he needs room to get the barrel in line with you, use things like that to aid your escape.

Got to go with Tom here.
And, like 1776, I do think of this stuff a lot.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am not 'tactically mobile'. Basically, if the building ain't burning down around me, I'll stay put and hope the fight passes me by. And if it don't pass by, I hope I'll fight as hard as I can to stop the threat.
I always go armed everywhere that it is legally possible. Every time my CCW pistol slips into it's holster, I pray it will stay there until I return home. But I also pray that if needed, I will be able to do what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, effectively. If that means using one round or every round, or jiggin' the SOB in the goozle pipe with my Gerber, or beating the piss out of the bad guy with my cane, or as Tom put it "do whatever it takes" to stop the threat, then so be it.

Good Topic, guys.

[1776 Rebel]

Well this dust up (and I mean no disrespect with that term. It clearly is a MAJOR military action) is going into its third day. Around five hundred dead and wounded. I have been riveted by the coverage. Finally the Indian gov't just told the broadcasters to shut down their live coverage (a wise move that should have been done 2 days ago). Here are a couple of thoughts I am walking away with so far. I certainly could be wrong but they are my impressions. I invite discussion please. Thanks so far to everyone for good ideas !

First I think this is a sea change in terrorist actions. So I have to expect/plan for this coming to a neighborhood near me. Terror groups are not stupid. They learn from their actions. I can honestly say that I have been expecting this for a long time. I remember listening as a kid to Barry Farber on the radio with a reporter Dan Brigham (for the old NY Journal American back in the 1960's) who said with 20 well trained guys he could close down Manhattan island. I guess he was right. (By the way the life story of Dan Brigham was quite unbelievable. Including escaping from SS goons in Germany before the war in a high speed chase to the  Swiss border and covering like 30 wars afterward. But that for another day.)

Second is that I am more conscious of being BETWEEN opposing forces. Pretty much all here on the forum and with MB shows etc are YOU vs BG. And it is a clearly defined BG. Here is a clear case of being in quite a different situation. You are trapped or trying to evade BOTH sides of a conflict. You might have been sound asleep with the wife and kids. It could be that I have a night job in some place that is a target. And then all hell breaks loose (I heard this several times on the TV so far).  Like being down range on the line at Camp Perry ! Not good. Heard one story of a westerner being shot at one of the hotels then making it to be evacuated to a local hospital. GUESS WHO SHOWS UP at the freaking hospital? The BGs. Yikes !!!

I am wrestling with the concept here of trying to stay out of the line of fire from both sides. THIS IS THE CLASSIC – CIVILIAN CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR – situation. I guess it really sucks. A friend of mine is Lebanonese. He as a teenager was caught up in that country’s civil war. He told he that basically your fate was out of your control most of the time. So if you are in your hotel room HOW DO YOU SIGNAL TO THE GGs that  you are not a threat? When the GGs  toss in a flash bang and the stack of guys come in WHAT DO YOU DO? Especially if you DON’T KNOW WHO IS COMING INTO YOUR ROOM? It could be the BGs. If armed do you shoot, shout, cry or grovel?

Third, a REALLY BIG bail out bag is now MANDATORY when traveling. But does its contents change? I had mentioned my experience on 9/11. In the weeks afterward, as lower Manhattan repopulated, I knew folks that had purchased coils of mountaineering rope to keep in their offices. I doubt if they knew how to repel out their windows but it gave them a sense of DOING SOMETHING. Of gaining control back. So do I throw a white flag in the bail out bag now? How about a spray paint can to mark my window? Just a thought. But I really wouldn’t want a SWAT team using my room as a point of entry for a major assault. How about ear plugs? That ain’t a joke. Seriously. Ear plugs might be quite useful.

Fourth, a couple of stories I heard, had people being asked for passports or ID to identify if they are Americans. Hmmm…that one REALLY scares me. I don’t like  being a hostage. How do I behave if I’m a hostage? Do I toss in the bail out bag some sort of alternate ID? Just as an aside, my adult children made me aware that European countries are experiencing a decline in population. As a result they are making it easier to get citizenship from them. Basically it is really easy if your heritage goes back to say Italy or Germany or Scandinavia. They are looking into it. Paperwork needs to be done and it takes 6 months but like a CCW it is that extra something that most folks don’t have. At minimum how about printing out on my printer a set of business cards that make it look like I am from some neutral (?) country?

Fifth, I heard the authorities turned off the cell phone network. Now I can’t call out. I wasn’t prepared for that. They also lost power and water in the hotel complex. Geeze it just keeps getting more and  more complex.

Ok just some thoughts like I said. I really would like it if MB or Pincus chimed in on this. Has anyone with military experience been in urban combat situations? I know it is tangential to guns per se, but in the broader sense this encompasses self protection. Tom is dead on with the GET OUT NOW approach. I just wish I could call on Scotty to Beam Me Up ! Now that would be perfect !!!

You know the saying about “when seconds count the cops are minutes away”. Well it might have to be revised to “the GGs are DAYS away”.

[Rastus]

I'd like to hear something from the experts as well...but I gotta say # 2 really hit home with me.  Maybe 1st thing is to not appear as a threat (as the BG's & GG's are concentrating on each other) then conceal/cover?

White flag...I'm throwing one in the travel bag...I think that is a good idea.  Electronic ear muffs (and plugs) travel with the extra mag & ammo in my bag...the electronic ear muffs will be a definite edge if the people shooting don't have ear protection...I suspect despite threat physiology their ears will be ringing and they won't even know it...at least that's what I'm hoping for to gain an edge in appraising my surroundings.