"Should" versus "Could"

[gorknoids]

The net result of 5 pages of discussion being..... There is no hard/fast/one-size-fits-all solution. The going-over of all these considerations gives everyone a much firmer grasp on the variables of such scenarios, and hopefully time won't be spent pondering them should the go/no-go situation arise. 
     Locally last year, a young man was in the back of his house watching TV one night when the police started staving his front door in.  A couple days prior, the police had sent a CI to the property to verify that the guy had a few pot plants in his garage, and the CI broke in and stole them.  The subject of the investigation, thinking that he was about to experience a home invasion, fired one shot, killing a young police officer.  A father.  A husband.  A son.  It was, and still is, f*cking tragic. 
     I don't smoke dope, and I don't support it, and I'm not trying to place blame, simply highlight the fact that ultimately, the trigger pull is yours, and your alone, and you can't take bullets back.   

[tombogan03884]

The net result of 5 pages of discussion being..... There is no hard/fast/one-size-fits-all solution. The going-over of all these considerations gives everyone a much firmer grasp on the variables of such scenarios, and hopefully time won't be spent pondering them should the go/no-go situation arise. 
     Locally last year, a young man was in the back of his house watching TV one night when the police started staving his front door in.  A couple days prior, the police had sent a CI to the property to verify that the guy had a few pot plants in his garage, and the CI broke in and stole them.  The subject of the investigation, thinking that he was about to experience a home invasion, fired one shot, killing a young police officer.  A father.  A husband.  A son.  It was, and still is, f*cking tragic. 
     I don't smoke dope, and I don't support it, and I'm not trying to place blame, simply highlight the fact that ultimately, the trigger pull is yours, and your alone, and you can't take bullets back.   

Did he call 911, or warn the "intruders he was armed ? Did he wait till the door actually gave way to identify what/ who he was shooting at ?
If he HAD called 911 would they have told him "don't shoot you are being raided"?

[Robin]

Did he call 911, or warn the "intruders he was armed ? Did he wait till the door actually gave way to identify what/ who he was shooting at? If he HAD called 911 would they have told him "don't shoot you are being raided"?

Unfortunately none of those questions would really make a difference. While I don't know the specifics of that incident I can give the following generalities:

1. There probably wasn't time to talk to 911. When police make dynamic entry they attempt to control territory as quickly as possible.
2. Even if homeowner had talked to 911 the dispatcher may not immediately recognize the caller's location as a raid target. Numerous factors like size of the jurisdiction, communication equipment and even dispatcher (in)attentiveness to the board could play into this.
3. If the police announced themselves, homeowner could still think it's a home invasion by impersonators. The same applies to any visual cues like uniform or gear carried by the officers.
4. Most homeowners in that situation will react to movement and fire before making a full visual ID. They mentally program themselves to quickly shoot anyone who enters. Even when you tell yourself you need to ID before shooting it still takes lots of practice to do it correctly.
5. If the homeowner said, "I have a gun!" that won't necessarily stop or slow down the officers from clearing rooms.
6. No mention was made if the officers fired any shots. If they did shoot the homeowner would have a strong disposition to return fire.

So as you can see there are too many "what-ifs" to draw any conclusions based on what gorknoids related.

[tombogan03884]

Unfortunately none of those questions would really make a difference. While I don't know the specifics of that incident I can give the following generalities:

1. There probably wasn't time to talk to 911. When police make dynamic entry they attempt to control territory as quickly as possible.
2. Even if homeowner had talked to 911 the dispatcher may not immediately recognize the caller's location as a raid target. Numerous factors like size of the jurisdiction, communication equipment and even dispatcher (in)attentiveness to the board could play into this.
3. If the police announced themselves, homeowner could still think it's a home invasion by impersonators. The same applies to any visual cues like uniform or gear carried by the officers.
4. Most homeowners in that situation will react to movement and fire before making a full visual ID. They mentally program themselves to quickly shoot anyone who enters. Even when you tell yourself you need to ID before shooting it still takes lots of practice to do it correctly.
5. If the homeowner said, "I have a gun!" that won't necessarily stop or slow down the officers from clearing rooms.
6. No mention was made if the officers fired any shots. If they did shoot the homeowner would have a strong disposition to return fire.

So as you can see there are too many "what-ifs" to draw any conclusions based on what gorknoids related.

All true enough, not really enough information.
One thing I'm curious about though, all things being equal, WOULD a 911 operator say " Don't worry, It's a real raid." or words to that effect ? Would they even have access to that information ?

[gorknoids]

Did he call 911, or warn the "intruders he was armed ? Did he wait till the door actually gave way to identify what/ who he was shooting at ?
If he HAD called 911 would they have told him "don't shoot you are being raided"?

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away".
    All this guy knew was that he'd recently been burglarized, and now someone was reaching through a hole they'd smashed in the door.  As I understand it, the officer shot was backing up the breaching team.  The guy reaching through the door was not shot.  Some say it was a warning shot gone wrong....Two witnesses the police called were both career criminals, one of whom testified that the guy bragged about being a cop-killer while in jail.  Did he really?  Would a jailbird lie?  Would the police make a deal to help their case?  They have video of the guy crying like a baby and puking in the detention cell after the raid. 
     Calling 911 while someone is breaking your door down simply ensures that the police have a recording of you being killed, in my opinion.  That's why I am such an ardent supporter of the 2nd Amendment.  It's not my friend's job to be my personal body guard.  Unfortunately, that unrealistic expectation has been held up as the standard in localities where firearms ownership has unconstitutionally been denied the law-abiding, like Washington DC, New York City, Chicago, etc.....
     Police officers are our eyes and ears, but they can't be our guardian angels. 

[Sponsor]

[Rob Pincus]

While  a dispatcher could confirm a real raid to someone who was barricaded (safe room, etc), they generally could not do so on the fly... especially in a big city.

Personally, if heard "Big City PD, Big City PD, Open Up!" and the door came crashing in, I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

-RJP

[Frisco]

While  a dispatcher could confirm a real raid to someone who was barricaded (safe room, etc), they generally could not do so on the fly... especially in a big city.

Personally, if heard "Big City PD, Big City PD, Open Up!" and the door came crashing in, I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

-RJP

Yeah, but that is a white hot branding iron there.  You are damned if you do, and could well be damned if you don't.  If you are a law abiding good guy...it WILL be sorted out.  Do what the nice officers tell you, and no matter how angry you are...keep your pie hole shut.  It WILL be worked out in the end.

On the other hand, if you are a law abiding good guy, who knows you have done nothing wrong, and there is no good reason why PD would be at your door....see where I am going here??

This is where being alert and aware just might save your butt.

If a knock comes to my door, and someone is demanding entry with a warrant...I will inform them through the door I am the homeowner, IF I can see them through the peephole or the side window of my home.  The advantage for me, is that to gain entry to my porch, one must go through a metal security gate that creates a 4' x 4' box at my front door in which there is no place to hide.  My front flood light will be on, and I will see whomever it is.  If it is kosher, and it is the police...they can come right on in, and I will offer them coffee, and cake.  It WILL be sorted out. Once I have ascertained their identity and their purpose for being in my home...things will work out.

If it is clearly NOT the police...then I am not saying anything, and heading to the master bedroom with the kid in tow, and in a position of cover and ambush while I call the real cavalry.  I will be waiting with the M4.  Anyone who crosses into the master bedroom will be toast.

This is no easy one to wargame...it has so many variables.

[PoorSoulInJersey]

Some say it was a warning shot gone wrong....

One more instance that might confirm that warning shots are a bad idea.

[Frisco]

One more instance that might confirm that warning shots are a bad idea.

I don't believe in warning shots.  I feel, that if you feel the need to "shoot to warn" you should probably be "shooting to stop".

IMO

[tombogan03884]

I don't believe in warning shots.  I feel, that if you feel the need to "shoot to warn" you should probably be "shooting to stop".

IMO

Agreed, and if you DON'T need to shoot to stop, you don't need to shoot.