Snubby Question

[CDR]

Hi,

Michael if you are reading this, I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoy Shooting Gallery each week.  I record every episode and  I particularly enjoyed your episode with Walt Rauch and the snubbies....great stuff.   I think I watched it 10 times so far...he's a great character and has great insight and, most importantly, common sense.  Following that show, you put me over the top on which gun to carry day in and day out and I have decided to go with a snubby for pocket concealed carry here in New York State in a pocket holster.  Talk about a challenge, getting a CCW in New York State has to be experienced to be believed.  They make it as difficult and discouraging as possible as you know.

The difficulty I am having is trying to make a choice in snubby.  I have it narrowed down between the S&W 340 PD (scandium frame with titanium cylinder) or the newly announced S&W 340 M&P (scandium frame with blackened stainless steel cylinder).  I know the difference in weight is about 1.3 ounces favoring the titanium, but my main difficulty in finalizing my decision has more to do with the  front sights than the negligible difference in weight.  The new M&P snubbie comes factory equipped with the XS standard dot front sight as opposed to the 340 PD which has the choice of traditional red ramp or the Hi Viz fiber optic.  I don't know which is best never having tried an XS sight (I am near sighted in my late 40s by the way so front sight pickup is important and challenging). The M&P 340 snubby also has the option of having factory installed Crimson Trace Laser grips as an added advantage, albeit quite expensive.  I am leaning toward that option, however, but as I can also have the laser grips installed on the 340 PD (which is about $100 more expensive than the M&P model due to the titanium cylinder) it again comes down to which model option offers the superior front sight.

Michael, or anyone else, if you can offer a recommendation based on personal experience with these models or sights I would appreciate it.  Both scandium snubbies will be expensive, but only marginally more with the 340 PD, so I want to go with the best option.  Probably with the Crimson Trace Laser grips with either model (I know how highly you think of these grips Michael), as I know you can also add the laser grips to the 340 PD.

Lastly, would you recommend carrying the .357 magnum load (I know it will kick like heck and I would practice with .38 and .38+P and finish up with a few .357 magnum loads) but the reason I ask is that a lot of the data seems to show that ballistically the advanages of the .357 magnum load might not be that much more than the .38+P load when you take into account the negatives of recoil, getting back on target quickly and muzzle flash that is affiliated with the scandium snubbie.  I routinely practice at the range with my Smith and Wesson 686 4 " .357 magnum but agree with what you said Michael in the Walt Rauch episode, i.e. if the gun is too big and too heavy, you wont carry it all the time.  That's the point. you'll always carry a snubbie.  Like Walt said, "Its not a sometime gun, it's an all the time gun."  For me it will always be in my front pocket in a pocket holster.....just which one??

Thanks everyone for your recommendations and thanks again Michael for a  really wonderful show and website.  I'm pulling for you for a renewed contract with the Outdoor Channel.  The best of luck.

[Walt Rauch]

As to what to buy, first off you need two; a lightweight for carry and a steel gun for practice. If you are financially strapped, get the lightweight only. Regardless use light .38 loads for practice.and practice often.  You can also "cheat" by putting on larger grips on for the practice session as what you, I think, should be learning is the DA trigger and acquiring reflexive familiarity with the gun.

As far as sights and aging eyes, the XS Dot, which I have on my travel Model 642, works well for all but making nice groups on small bullseye targets (and you can do this  too after you get familiar with them.)

I have no more than casual experience using "Tru-Glo" and "Hi-Viz" sights and this only in bright daylight; not a balanced evaluation. 

Don't be too concerned about wearing out the gun you can always buy another one. Think of the Snubby in terms of insurance. Each  year you pay auto and homeowners and get nothing for your money  but piece of mind. With a gun you get this as well as a gun to shoot.
Regards;
Walt

[CDR]

Hi Walt,

Wow, I never expected to receive a response directly from you.  I must say it is indeed an honor and I appreciate you taking the time to provide your very valuable advice....thank you. 

I had planned to practice with my 686 4" and scandium snubby during each range visit, figuring that the double action mode that exists on both revolvers would be similar. I was planning to practice with the lighter .38 load in the snubby session and finishing up with either .38+P or .357 Magnum loads (still not sure about that one as I don't look forward to catching Nolan Ryan's fastball barehanded).  I had been debating on getting a 640 instead of the scandium, but my local gunshop advised me that the 640 is too heavy for all day pocket carry.  He said by the end of the day I would be leaning to one side.  My thought was to go for a scandium model Smith and Wesson as the frame is somewhat stronger than the all aluminum Airweight and would holdup better through many rounds of practice.  Besides, Smith and Wesson provides a lifetime warranty should the frame crack or any other major disaster occur, so I don't even worry about wear and tear on any of their products.

As the scandium option snubby with laser grips approaches $1,000 I am now wondering given what you said about buying a steel snubby as well, if I am better served getting an Airweight and a 640 for about the same money, and probably less?  Or should I stay with the 340 M&P or 340 PD model and get the 640 later on?

As for loads, are you recommending just to stay away from .357 Magnum loads and simply carry .38+P for the lightweight snubby?

Thanks again Walt.  I appreciate your response.

[Walt Rauch]

OK, let's see what we have here;
Trigger actions of  L and J frames differ so much that you will not get J frame skills by shooting an L frame.

640 too heavy for all day carry? 20 some ounces v 12?  I don't think so. But then you might be six feet tall and weight under 100 pounds. As such you might be more prone to "tip over" than is normal.(grin!)

Shooting more than one cylinder full of  magnums in a "no weight" J frame? Before doing so, find a cracked baseball bat and do some batting practice. If you like what you feel, then by all means go ahead. Seriously, tolerating the .357 magnum recoil in lightweight guns varies  I T&Ed one of the first in J frame; did not like the experience and will not do again unless it is a test gun.

Choice of guns and models, you have to make the call. The nice part of buying the wrong gun is you get a "do over" and can buy another one.

My last snubby purchase was a 9mm Model 940. It's pleasant enough for me to be able shoot a box or two of standard velocity 9mm (thanks in no small part to the rubber grips; here Uncle Mikes).  If you look at  9mm velocities, most standard loads are the same as +P .38s.

OK, now that I beat around the bush, what do I recommend? Get a plain Jane steel J frame , a good pocket holster or two from any of the name holster makers and a case of .38 remanufactured wadcutters from Black Hills or any other firm of equal quality ammo. Carry the gun and shoot the ammo up. I bet at the end of this you'll have the answers to your questions.

[Michael Bane]

Nicely done, Walt!

You can pick up older steel J-frames for kibbles and bits (I've paid as little as $150 for 'em with the finish pretty much rubbed off...of course, on one that I got that cheap the barrel sort of unscrewed on its own and fell out!).

I also would like to point out that I carry a BORING Taurus Ultra-Lite Total Titanium in .38 Special a lot of the time. I shoot standard pressure .38 Specials in it (infrequently...it does bark); when I practice with a snub, I use one of theheavier  J-frames.

You wanna shoot .357s, get a little Ruger SP-101...the ergonomics of a brick bat, but sturdy little beasts! I'd rather stick my hand in a blender than shoot the ultralight .357s!

Michael B

[Sponsor]

[CDR]

Walt and Michael,

Thanks very much for your insight and recommendations, it is very much valued and appreciated.  I've shot .38 and .38+P loads out of a friend's Airweight 442 model but never tried .357 loads as the snubby was rated to .38+Ps.  I didn't have a problem with either load but then I only shot about 10 of each just to see what the gun was like.  It seems to be unanimous that unless one is a complete masochist, the .357 magnum load is verboten.  Besides, who wants a bloody pulp for a right hand?  I just never realized that the difference between the +P loads and .357 magnum loads is that significant.  Now I know.

I have tried a model 60 in my pocket at my local gun shop to see what it felt like and found it was fine (I'm under 6 feet and over 220 lbs so no chance of me toppling over anytime soon Walt...:-))  What I have heard though is that with a stainless steel, 23 ounce snubby (like the 640 Centennial model) in your front pocket that the issue is when you walk or run (another rarity) as the weight of the gun and its greater momentum tends to swing in your pocket.  Otherwise, that is the model I originally started with in my mind, the 640 in a Robert Mika holster. I only started looking at the S&W scandium snubbies because of this moving weight issue.  I would prefer to carry .357 loads for personal protection as the effectiveness of this load is outstanding.  Given the inability to practice sufficiently with that load in a lightweight snubby, however, and the consequential reduced confidence that comes with less practice, I am now thinking differently and thinking about going back to the 640 for pocket carry and range practice. The 640 does appear to have a larger grip and slightly longer muzzle so I don't know if that negatively effects pocket carry in any way, but I know it assists in holding on to the revolver (I've got large hands) and probably in muzzle flash and muzzle velocity.

Michael, I know you mentioned you carry the Taurus with its relative brick bat weight, but for pocket carry, would you think the 640 would work in a Mika holster?  I'm guessing you carry the Taurus holstered as it would have to be too much in your pocket, no?  Walt, I think you feel that the 640 would work.  Could either of you let me know if you would rate this model as my best choice or is there any other J frame you would recommend.

Thank you again gentlemen for being so accessible.  This is really a wonderful site Michael......I'm already in for the Brue Gray 1911.    Good decision making the drawing on April 14th.  This means we can actually look forward to income tax day.

Regards

[MaSIGshooter]

Awesome to get these tips from the experts !
I own and carry a 340PD with the red-ramp front sights and am a big fan of this gun.
I frequently shoot moderate .38's out of it (Winchester Winclean is my favorite practice round) and do not find the recoil excessive with these - I generally shoot a box of 50 every  month or so. 
I will occasionally shoot some .357 Magnums out of it (shot a handful today actually). It can be painful - but making sure you have the "web"  of your hand way up on the gun helps a lot.
For carry, I DO fill it up with Speer Gold Dot "Short-Barrel" .357 magnums and carry a Bianchi Speed Strip or two of extra rounds - usually .38 Federal Hydrashocks or Winchester Silvertips.
There is no question this is an expensive gun. Adding the Crimson Trace Lasergrips is a good idea but you can always do it later...
I have had fiber-sights break before, and given what this gun could go through, I think the plain old red-ramps work just fine.

[Michael Bane]

Amazingly, I'm working on a video (which should go up mid-week, BTW) on pocket pistols in general and why they shoudl always be holstered. For the J-frames, I use a DeSantis Nemesis...cheap, fits everything. For my .380 Mustang...forgive me, world, but my favorite pocket pistol for years...I use a Pcpket Concealment Systems holster. PCS are the best pocket holster makers in the world, with one for every pocket ever conceived of...

I'll have all the contact material up with the video...and I'm looking forward to getting Walt out to Colorado for more filming (it has to thaw first!)

Michael B

[CDR]

Can't wait  to see the video Michael.  Just watched Part 1 on concealed carry...nice job.  Really looking forward to the pocket carry segment and certainly any new feature you plan to film with Walt.  Great stuff!!!

Thanks!!

[DonWorsham]

I had been debating on getting a 640 instead of the scandium, but my local gunshop advised me that the 640 is too heavy for all day pocket carry.  He said by the end of the day I would be leaning to one side. 

I carry a Taurus M605 (24oz unloaded) in my pocket all day. I forget it is there! I work in an office. No one knows, no one notices. I wear dockers or when allowed, jeans (the pockets are larger than most jeans). I like the weight. I also have carried a S&W 642 (16 oz??). Uncle Mike's pocket holster or DeSantis.

I"d give the 640 a try.