Episode #9: Dealing with the Immediate Aftermath of a Use of Lethal Force

[Rob Pincus]

Well guys & gals, this is something that was being asked about since the very first episode aired. What did you all think of the way we handled it?

[Boudreaux]

Rob,
I enjoyed the show. I was glad to see that you guys showed the "no no's" of what to do after you are forced to use leathal force. I always wondered what to do with my firearm after I was forced to use it(reholster, place on the ground and backaway), so I was really happy to see you guy address that. Hopefuly sometime in the future I hope to see you guys address the same kind of situation but in a public place, How to handle other peoples reaction? What to tell other people? I was also glad to see that you guys talked about flashlights, Gun mounted V.S handheld. I never leave home with out my light (Fenix P3D) I feel that if you carry a gun, you must carry a light. They could prevent the use of a firearm in many situations.
Keep up the good work guys!
Boudreaux

[DonWorsham]

I thought it was spot on. I'd like to see you add to that with how to handle the questions by the LEO's on the scene. How much should you  say to them, which questions should you answer? Which ones to avoid?

[paramedic70002]

A good scenario, tailored to a cut and dry outcome. Perhaps a future variant could include a downed suspect who is still conscious and in possession of a firearm. Also, my wife pointed out that the shooter may have been in a better tactical position if he had stayed in the corner, so that: 1) His back was covered; and 2) There would be no accusation from witnesses that he was "looking for trouble" when he checked around the car and area. I know, I know, he was looking for threats, but her point does have some validity. I also noted that he didn't keep his attention on the downed suspect, in case she recovered and continued the assault, ditched the weapon, signaled a partner, etc. If I were in his shoes, and moved out to check the area, I would move away from her. If she is not unconscious or dead, she certainly had the opportunity to reach out and grab or stab him.

While I agree that he should not interact with her after the shooting, I must interject some variables. If she had the potential to continue the attack, I feel it would be dangerous but appropriate in some situations to kick away the weapon. Also, while I have no legal duty to act in this scenario, I am a certified Paramedic, and I'm sure a crafty attorney could make me look bad for not treating the suspect.

[gemurdock]

I thought it was spot on. I'd like to see you add to that with how to handle the questions by the LEO's on the scene. How much should you  say to them, which questions should you answer? Which ones to avoid?

+1.  I would also like to hear about what you would do in a situation where the assaulter's cohorts have not left the scene, but are lurking at a difficult distance to do something about, under cover or concealment, and the arrival of LEO is not necessarilly imminent (like some neighborhoods I can think of).

[Sponsor]

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks, Gem and Para.

Para,

I agree with some o your points.... and some of them were not addressed (or not addressed in more detail at any rate) because of practical setting and time concerns.

As to the "kick away the weapon"... I disagree entirely (and this gets to your point also, Gem). At one point is it okay to get within striking distance of that knife if you are in control:  NEVER. That logic says he should have done a roundhouse kick and knocked the weapon away in the first place if taken to its extreme. The answer is that you either leave the area (not what we wanted to show in this segment) or you stand by and respond appropriately (ie- with the gun) if she or any friends become a immediate lethal threat.
The Medical attention issue is the same answer.... you have no duty to act. Exposing yourself to danger because a lawyer might make you look bad later is not what I would recommend. It may be seen by some as a muddy moral issue, but for me it is a clear cut defensive one.


Gem,
If the friends are just standing around and heckling (a situation that is very likely an that I've witnessed in an LE capacity), you ignore them or leave (again, we didn't have time to show everything, nor did we intend to address the leaving option).

-RJP

[mnshooter]

An even more critical problem can be the assailants friends surrounding you, threatening you and demanding your firearm.
All the more reason to keep your cellphone tuned to channel 911.  If you are in a no cell reception area, most phones have a recorder function and many have live video recording.  Keeping this running as long as possible could go a long way to document your defense actions.  Fairly soon we'll probably have live video recording built in to the firearm, or added to the modular lights. 

[mnshooter]

Change "fairly soon" to "eventually", as far as video video guns/grips/lights go, since everyone has their own definition of soon.
I also forgot to say how very much I enjoyed the episode, and hope you can expand on these issues in future shows.

[paramedic70002]

Rob,

Just wanted to clarify a couple points.

I would not try to kick a knife out of someone's hand while they were up and running.

I would consider kicking a firearm away from a downed BG so that it could not be used against me after I had retreated from the immediate area.  Especially in the confines of the scenario, since he had to walk within inches of her to move around. Again, this all depends on the minutiae of the incident, like whether the firearm was still in hand, finger on trigger, etc. For me it's a judgment call. Despite what comes out of Hollywood (as I'm sure you will agree) most BGs don't have the forethought or discipline to go from attack mode to faking unconsciousness that quickly. I've gotten pretty good at knowing what dead looks like, but not everybody can do that.

A lot of variables can be factored into a situation that hasn't happened yet, like I said before, the televised scenario was pretty cut and dried. The woman could have fallen down, tossed the weapon, and said, "Oh God, they made me do it! I'm sorry! I'm dying! I'm bleeding! Help me!" Or something similar. Definitely would make the average Joe uncomfortable if there was a delayed response. But now I'm just letting my mind wander...

[TheBowhunter]

I liked very much for me  every episode is great but the 911 call details and flashlight usage are  things for me  practice with so I can protect my family and myself. Always pay attention to Detail would be great for 911 calls.
I look forward to watching every episode and if I can not you better bet I have the timer set to record it.