Handloading for assult rifles

[Badgersmilk]

Anybody developed or found some good consistant shooting loads out there???  Any caliber.

From my tinkering and experimenting with AK's and SKS's I've come up with this one and found it to be the most consistantly accurate of all the rounds I've tried in my rifles.

Winchester brass, Federal match primers, Speer 123gr. soft points, 29 grains of H4895.  Yes, its a compression load, which makes it REAL easy to see that your powder measure is right!  It fills the case right to the top, then I squish it down to a total length of 2.200", and crimp it with a Lee "factory crimp die", lower the press, turn the shell about 1/4 turn and crimp again (eliminates the pinch marks on the case for a smooth neck). 

Never seen any signs of high pressure in any gun with it as yet.  Shoots VERY consistant groups at 100 yards (only range I've tested it at).  (I dont own a chrony, so no info there.)

There's been times in the past I wondered why I'm hand loading this cartridge when its so cheap to buy, but that "cheap to buy" is changing, and its even getting harder to find!  Plus when you make comparisons in reliabilty and accuracy between what you get in the store and the hand loads...  WOW!  At least in my experiments it was like getting a whole new gun!

[Badgersmilk]

For the .308 I've found:

Winchester brass, Federal match primers, CT Balistic silver tip 168gr, 43 grains of H4895, total length set at 2.82" (a little long, but I've never had feed problems of any kind in an AR10, or M77 target rifle, and it puts the bullit that much closer to the threads).  I use a medium radiused crimp (not REAL heavy, but not a light one either because the recoil in the AR).  To date its easily beat any factory ammo I've tried from either rifle (16" barrel on AR, 26" on M77).  And that puppies cook'in fast!.  Should do well at longer ranges.  Over 300 yards I have yet to test.  Variations at those ranges are more dependant on outside conditions than the round being fired IMO anyway.

Anybody done testing between a 168 grain vs a 175 grain???

[Badgersmilk]

Come'on now!  Half the posts I see on here say their shooting consistant 10 rings at 600 yards plus, anything smaller than a .308 isnt fit to be used at all, and nobody's using handloads...

Mmmm, Hmmm

[tombogan03884]

Military style semi auto's it's best to stick around the bullet weight the action was designed for. In fact several manufacturers say NOT to exceed certain bullet weights, such as 150 grain for .308. even if it does not ruin the rifle due to excessive pressure it makes the sight adjustment calibrations useless by shifting the point of impact at various ranges in relation to the range calibrations of the rear sights.

[Badgersmilk]

Good point, plus to light of a load will lead to cycling problems of all sorts. 

I'm wanting to say the initial development (by the military) was with 168 grain in the .308 caliber though.  They later went to lighter 150 grain to lessen recoil (among other things).  Pretty sure it was developed around 168 though.

A lot of the looonng range shooters like the 175 because it carries its energy better than the 168 I'm told...  VERY curious if anybody has done any testing they could share knowledge of!

I just looked up what I could find on the .308.  Everything I can find in print is saying the above is correct (developed around a 168 grain bullit, and lowered to 150 along with powders and primers being changed in some cases to lower chamber pressures and recoil for full auto).  The M118 "long range round" can now be found in both 168 and 175 grain.

Below info. is cut from a military tech manual for full "machine guns" using 7.62X51.  This is the "standard miltary surplus" rounds you'll find cheap.  Intended for full auto use, a little poopy for high accuracy long range though.  Hence, the M118 still being available for semi-auto's and bolts.

Use:
Machine Guns, 7.62mm, M60 and M219; and
Rifle, 7.62mm, M14. The cartridge is intended for use
against personnel and unarmored targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a
plain bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC........................ 1305-A143
UNO serial number ..... 0012
UNO proper shipping
name ....................... Cartridges for
weapons, inert projectile
Weight ........................ 393 gr
Length.......................... 2.8 in. (71.1 mm)
Tracer .......................... NA
Primer ......................... NA
Fuze ............................ NA
Explosive:
Type ......................... NA
Weight ...................... NA
Incendiary:
Type ......................... NA
Weight ...................... NA
Propellant:
Type ........................WC 846
Weight ..................... 46 gr
Projectile:
Weight ...................... 150.5 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure ....... 50,000 psi
Velocity ....................... 2750 fps, 78 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ......................... 1.4S
Storage code ............... Class V
DOT shipping class ..... C
DOT designation ......... SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number .......... 7553702

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[Badgersmilk]

Wanna see somthin REALLY cool???

Give it a minute to load, but Check it!

http://www.amsd.ch/products/ammunitions/tm%2043-0001-27.pdf

[kmitch200]

For the .308 I've found:
Winchester brass, Federal match primers, CT Balistic silver tip 168gr, 43 grains of H4895, total length set at 2.82" (a little long, but I've never had feed problems of any kind in an AR10, or M77 target rifle, and it puts the bullit that much closer to the threads).  I use a medium radiused crimp (not REAL heavy, but not a light one either because the recoil in the AR).  To date its easily beat any factory ammo I've tried from either rifle (16" barrel on AR, 26" on M77).  And that puppies cook'in fast!.  Should do well at longer ranges.  Over 300 yards I have yet to test.  Variations at those ranges are more dependant on outside conditions than the round being fired IMO anyway.
Anybody done testing between a 168 grain vs a 175 grain???

A couple of things jump out at me in your load data.

1. If you have powder up to the top of the case, you need a powder drop tube, you have the wrong powder or too hot of a load. Some compression is no big deal but if you literally have powder up to the top of the case, you are in danger of bullet creep and changing your OAL without a strong crimp. You do crimp so a may never be an issue. Have you tried another powder?

2. Your 7.62x39 load EXCEEDS HODGDON SPECS.
Hodgdon load data is warm to hot in my experience. You have gone past that. 
Shooting that load out of a semi auto is going to trash it - whether it has an op-rod or not.

3. quote: "And that puppies cook'in fast!."
Without a chronograph you have NO IDEA what speeds/pressures you are dealing with.  Beg, borrow or steal one or ask someone at the range to shoot your gun through their chrono. (I don't let people shoot through my chrono. If it gets shot to shit, it's going to be by me)
They cost about $100 for a Shooting Chrony. I spent way more on components the last time I went shopping. Get one!!!

That said.....
My pet 308 Win load for my Rem (DPMS) R-25 is:
168gr Sierra Match King
Nosler brass
Fed 210m primer
H-4895  40.0gr
2.800 OAL
Speed is 2458fps average.
42gr of H-4895 clocked at 2553fps and I stopped there because the groups started to look like factory ammo groups.
Factory Federal Gold Metal Match 168SMK chronos at 2560fps out of my gun. Other factory hunting loads run faster.

My pet load will outshoot factory Fed GMM by 1/3 to 1/2 the group size. It is 1gr less than the *starting* load on Hodgdon's website, yet is only about 100fps slower than factory Fed GMM.

Your 43gr load will never be shot out of my gun. Once I reach factory speeds in a modern cartridge, I STOP!!
If you want 30-06 velocities get a 30-06. Don't beat up a gun just because you can - it doesn't make any sense.

*Note blanket disclaimer* - all guns are different. These loads are safe in my guns. If you load them in your guns you're on your own.

[Badgersmilk]

Your right about the loads being Warm...  But not hot.  Both the 7.62X39, and .308 loads are below "max load" listings in the Lee loading book.  Actually the 7.62x39 load doesnt "exist" with a 123 grain bullet.  It exists as a max load with a 125 grain, and with the SLIGHTLY lighter bullet chamber pressures DO drop a bit, putting it under the max load for 123.  I've always checked ALL my cases and primers VERY closely on every round fired as well.  I've never yet found any signs of being close to high pressure in any of them (Federal primers are known for being a bit soft anyway, so they'd show high pressure signs quickly.  I use them for their consistancy between rounds though). 

The 7.62X51 round I say is "cook'in fast" because the same load with .5 grains more is listed again as a max load in a couple load manuals I've got (plus the bullets have a coating the is actually known to aid in dropping pressures a wee bit), and rated at just over 2700FPS. 

Again, their both warm, but not hot, or max loads, and I carefully worked up to them to find they shoot VERY clean, and show NO signs of high pressure at all (its VERY evident when you know what to look for).  I not only use a measure on EVERY load, but then hand weigh every round to + or - 1 to 2 individual peaces of powder (yes, +/- 1 to 2 TINY little particles for EVERY load).  I also ONLY shoot these loads in my own guns.  No telling what may be wrong with a gun I'm not familiar with, so if its going in somebody elses gun I go to "starting load" specs, and if they want hotter than that I tell them buy the equipment and load them themselves!

The load you mentioned sounds as it'd be great for accuracy (often lighter loads WILL prove most consistant shooting).  Nosler brass is well know for its quality too!  I spend WAY WAY WAY more time than I'd like preping the Winchester stuff for first time use!  Ever see problems with the necks being dented up with Nosler?  I dont know if I should fault Winchester, or the retailers for that kind of thing though.  Have you tried chamfering the flash holes???  I found it makes a marked improvement in long range patterns.

Gotta love the H4895!  The stuff can be used in half the calibers out there, and is at the top in performance nearly everytime!  Shoots SUPER clean as well.

The Chrony wont tell you anything about chamber pressures, only help you verify the consistancy of your rifle, shooting conditions, & rounds, and chart their end performance.  VERY helpfull for shooting competitions where ranges may not be known factors.  COULD prove helpfull in hunting applications if your actually concerned with +/- .5" at 100 yards on game...  OR you could make a card for your gun and the loads your using when your at the range, laminate it and keep it with you.  A Chrony'd be fun, but more of a pain than anything to drag it along with everything else to the range to me.  Again, if your mapping the gun / round...  Their GREAT!  I just have no practical use for one as yet.

[1911 Junkie]

It's BULLET

[kmitch200]

Your right about the loads being Warm...  But not hot.  Both the 7.62X39, and .308 loads are below "max load" listings in the Lee loading book.  Actually the 7.62x39 load doesnt "exist" with a 123 grain bullet.  It exists as a max load with a 125 grain, and with the SLIGHTLY lighter bullet chamber pressures DO drop a bit, putting it under the max load for 123.  I've always checked ALL my cases and primers VERY closely on every round fired as well.  I've never yet found any signs of being close to high pressure in any of them (Federal primers are known for being a bit soft anyway, so they'd show high pressure signs quickly.  I use them for their consistancy between rounds though).
 
The 7.62X51 round I say is "cook'in fast" because the same load with .5 grains more is listed again as a max load in a couple load manuals I've got (plus the bullets have a coating the is actually known to aid in dropping pressures a wee bit), and rated at just over 2700FPS. 
Again, their both warm, but not hot, or max loads, and I carefully worked up to them to find they shoot VERY clean, and show NO signs of high pressure at all (its VERY evident when you know what to look for). 

You realize that when you SEE excess pressure signs you have already exceeded them right? The "rating" doesn't mean a whole lot unless you are shooting the same gun they tested the loads in. Not a similar one - THE SAME GUN!

I missed the 125gr bullet listed on Hodgdon's site. You're right, I thought it was 123gr. I blame the beers!  Note though that Hornady & Nosler's load books list the same data for 165 & 168gr bullets. You may not be getting much of a difference with only 2gr diff in bullet weight.

The load you mentioned sounds as it'd be great for accuracy (often lighter loads WILL prove most consistant shooting).  Nosler brass is well know for its quality too!  I spend WAY WAY WAY more time than I'd like preping the Winchester stuff for first time use!  Ever see problems with the necks being dented up with Nosler?  I dont know if I should fault Winchester, or the retailers for that kind of thing though.  Have you tried chamfering the flash holes???

The Nosler brass is already done. You can pull it out of the box and load it. (Lapua too) I have a couple hundred pieces of Rem brass that is still in the bag because it is a PITA to prep it. You know the drill..... 
I may not even bother with flash holes for the 308 because it has the factory barrel still. In my custom built 3006 you probably could see a difference, on a plain jane barrel it may not be worth the bother. About 25-30 rounds of each should tell me if it's worth it or not.

The Chrony wont tell you anything about chamber pressures, only help you verify the consistancy of your rifle, shooting conditions, & rounds, and chart their end performance.

Sorry, you are mistaken.The only way to increase velocity is to increase pressure.

Many, (most?) factory loads are loaded to the max for safe use in guns in that caliber. For 3006 the factory loads can't blow up a 100 year old gun. The exact same case in a 270 is loaded to higher pressures because the 270 doesn't have 100+ yrs old guns chambered for it.
If you exceed factory load velocity you have exceeded factory load pressures.
It doesn't matter if you know what a load is "rated for" because in your gun the printed speeds are almost meaningless. Two guns pulled off the same assembly line will shoot different and prefer different loads/bullets/speeds.

They're kinda like women....

One 3006 (factory barrel/chamber) I have shoots slow. A "max" load in that gun hasn't created the pressures needed for "max" velocity. I can *start* at the middle/top third of the recommended load range without a care and go up from there.
My other 3006 has a Shilen barrel on it. If I go over *midpoint* of the load data with that barrel, I will have primers flatter than a pancake and velocities WELL over factory speeds even after taking into account the longer than standard barrel length. My 308 shoots faster - creates higher pressure - than the Hornady manual says it should with a given powder charge.

Again, if your mapping the gun / round...  Their GREAT!  I just have no practical use for one as yet.

I reloaded for about 20 years before I had a chronograph. I realize now that I WAS RELOADING BLIND.  No wonder my actual, real life drops at long range didn't correspond to the load books.
All I'm saying is that just because *one* loading manual says *one* load is OK, doesn't mean you aren't running on the ragged edge.
Max in the book may be over max in your gun.

Hey it's your gun and a free country, do what you want. Just be aware!