Author Topic: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle  (Read 55337 times)

Ping

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 10:22:52 AM »
Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.

I agree with FQ13 on looking at Indiana in the "rear view mirror", reminds me of a great Pearl Jam song. Going to miss the White Tail Deer though. I will have to take a look at the Savage line. I remember when I was living in Great Falls, Montana in 1991 and I saw Ruger 7mm for under $500. Can't touch that now and I did not hunt then.  :(

 

Texas_Bryan

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 10:29:38 AM »
Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.

If your a fan of dirt, move to Arizona, if you are fond of commies, move to New Mexico.  But if you love awesomeness and the greatest state in the Union than come to Texas.  Just make sure you don't move south of Austin, the Governor sent a scouting party into San Antonio last week, we haven't heard from them. ;)

shooter32

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 11:01:47 AM »
Looking and applying mainly in the Southwest. Wife wants to head to Texas. Put in for a job in Moab, Utah last night. Would love to take the Jeep out there and have a blast. I personally have been looking at Arizona or New Mexico.

I agree with FQ13 on looking at Indiana in the "rear view mirror", reminds me of a great Pearl Jam song. Going to miss the White Tail Deer though. I will have to take a look at the Savage line. I remember when I was living in Great Falls, Montana in 1991 and I saw Ruger 7mm for under $500. Can't touch that now and I did not hunt then.  :(

 
For the money the Savage is the way to go.  ;)


In 30.06 ;D
A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ~ Gerald Ford - August 12, 1974

Ping

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 01:51:30 PM »
Dirt does not bother me but I hate commies. Those who let Russia into NATO should be shot. Russia will always be communist as long as former KGB members run their nation. Guess a few people forgot that their Doctrine was World Domination. Just my two bits on that. I will have to re-consider New Mexico and take a harder look. Texas rocks and lived in San Antonio for 6 months when I was in the Air Force. Beautiful place but better if you can speak fluent spanish.

Was looking at the Springfield M1A at Gander Mountain. Had a stainless steel barrel and synthetic stock. The price was a little over $1,200. Went back to buy it and was gone.  :(

PegLeg45

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 02:02:51 PM »
I will take a 100 dollar bet on it. I'm sure.
You are right that it was a M70 though.
Wiki's wrong, you have to read the book.

I stand corrected, sir.   ;)
Glad I didn't bet, but I only bet when I'm 100% certain....and on this I wasn't certain because I have not studied up on the earlier years. I had read the article (same one that Timothy posted) a long time back but had just missed the '06.

It appears that over his career, he used several different rounds for different purposes (30-06, .308 Win, and .300 Win Mag.).





From the link Timothy posted, and worth reading:


.............. Carlos used a .22 rifle with open sights to hunt rabbits and squirrels for the table, and by the time he joined the Marines at age 17, he was already a good shot. In boot camp, his skills were refined with formal instruction, and he qualified as Expert - "which was few and far between, at that time." From there, he went to Hawaii, where he won an intramural shootoff and was picked by the Hawaii Marines rifle team. Honing his skills still further in NRA Highpower Rifle competition, Hathcock specialized in Service Rifle competition with the National Match M-1 Garand.

In 1962, upon completing his tour in Hawaii, Carlos transferred to Cherry Point, NC, where he coached on the rifle range and competed on the Wing team. Funds were limited, and Carlos began traveling to matches at his own expense, to augment the experience he could obtain through the team. What equipment were they using then? "National Match M-ls and issue Match ammo. It was a real good combination." Did the service rifle shooters ever use handloads? "Absolutely not." Eventually, Carlos began shooting 1000 yard competition, using a Winchester Model 70 Target rifle fitted with an Unertl target scope. This rifle, in cal. .300 Winchester Magnum, was accurized by the Marine Corps rifle team armorers at Quantico, Va. and his ammunition was handloaded by loading shop personnel.



Carlos Hathcock on Sniping Equipment

Carlos served in Viet Nam in 1966-1967, and again in 1969. On his first tour, he used primarily the Winchester Model 70 Target rifle in .30-06, with an 8X Unertl target scope having outside adjustments. Speaking of this combination, he noted, "I loved it. I thought it was great, at the time." Was the scope reliable in its adjustments and return to zero? "Yes, it worked well. I did take off the recoil springs, however. I preferred returning the scope to battery myself each time I shot, because then I knew it went back to the same place each time." [Readers may recall that Hathcock had extensive competitive experience with this rifle/scope combination prior to his arrival in Viet Nam.] Despite his prior exposure to handloaded target ammunition in .300 Win. Mag. for competition, Carlos commented that the accuracy of the rifle was good with issued Lake City Match ammo. and that he never used handloads to enhance accuracy. However, the Unertl target scopes did have a tendency to fog in wet weather, which hampered his effectiveness.

The later Remington M-700's in 7.62 NATO also worked well, but Carlos wasn't a fan of the issue Redfield 3-9X scopes, noting, "Heck, we had more scopes in the shop than in the field, at times. Guys were ranging back and forth with 'em, and the power adjustment would go out. I wound up telling my guys to just leave 'em on 9X. They had a rangefinder, but it would only go up to 500 yards. I kept my scopes zeroed at 700 yards!" Would a more modern rifle have made much difference in Hathcock's effectiveness? "Yes! Definitely! We had wood stocks, which didn't do very well over there - the zero kept changing. A fiberglass stock would have kept our zeros the same."

Carlos mentioned that he had not used the M-21 (accurized M-14 sniper system) while overseas. How about suppressors? "No, our noise suppressor was distance. We just shot from so far away, they couldn't tell where we were." Did Hathcock ever use night vision? "No, I never did. Now, I did use an infra-red scope one night, and I was scanning with this scope, and there was an infra-red looking back at me! Click! I turned that sucker off quick! It was an attention-getter! We never really had much night vision capability with our rifles, any how. Starlight wasn't too much good. You could kill the heck out of a tombstone, and all you gotta do is pay for it." He laughed as he explained, "McAbee did that - he saw this tombstone that looked just like one of the bad guys... he kept banging at it, but it never fell, and he had to pay for it. I didn't like them Starlights, anyway. Things were green in there, and I never could make anything out with 'em, to tell you the truth."

What was Carlos' opinion of the standard M-14 rifle in combat? "It was very reliable... very, VERY reliable. When them M-16's first came in country, man, they were killin' a lot of people - the people shootin' 'em! When I went back the second time, I would NOT let my people carry the M-16 'cause I wanted all my people to come back. And, I never lost a person over there." He laughed goodnaturedly as he went on, "Never lost nobody but me, and that wasn't my fault!" What does Carlos think of the M-16 now, with all the improvements that have been made to it since Viet Nam? "Well, I've never had much experience with M-16's. My son [SSG Carlos N. Hathcock III, USMC] seems to like it, 'cause that's what he's armed with. He shoots it in matches, and he seems to like it."

Carlos mentioned that he had kept his rifle zeroed at 700 yards while in Viet Nam. I was especially curious as to whether he might have worked out a trajectory table for his scope in clicks per 1 00 yards, in order to change his elevation zero as needed. "No, I mainly held off, and I taught my people in my platoon to hold off, too." How much wind did he encounter in Viet Nam? "it was considerable. I was shooting across a river, one time, and the wind just whistled down the river. I missed two bad guys in one day... I didn't hold enough, and hit in front of both of 'em. Then, other times, I held just right..." How about in the early mornings and late evenings? "Oh, yeah, it was calmer then, except in the monsoon season, when it was windy all the time. It was rainy... Jeez, what a time that was." Could he operate effectively during the monsoon season? "No, that's when you turned into an observer, actually."

Moving to more modern equipment, Carlos mentioned that he had helped test several scopes as part of the development of the M-4OAl USMC sniper rifle following the Viet Nam War. The winner was a new design by Unerfl. This fixed 1 OX was so tough that the final test involved using the scope to pound a tent stake into frozen ground!! Carlos' eyes lit up as he recalled the testing... not only did the scope continue to function, it wasn't even dented!! And what of sniper rifles for the police counter-sniper? "In all the schools I've given across this country, I've seen a lot of hodgepodge mess, from people who didn't know what to use, so they used all kinds of stuff," he snorted. "Light barrels... heck, after three shots, those bullets will go everywhere that you DO NOT want them to go! You will never, ever qualify on MY course with a light-barreled rifle. We recommend only the best equipment for the job. That's a Remington 700 heavy barrel, in caliber .308. We also recommend the Leupold fixed 1OX Ultra scope, and the Harris bipod - the swiveling type. Of course, they're the most expensive, but... they're good ones." Carlos still prefers fixedpower scopes over variables, due to their greater simplicity. I was curious about his preference for scope reticles. He holds that the current 3/4 mil dot reticle is now as advanced as is possible, with little room for improvement as a range-estimating aid.

When we moved to the subject of ammunition, Hathcock had definite views here, as well. "We recommend Federal Match .308, with the 168 grain hollowpoint Sierra. We've tested all the brands the department can buy, and Federal Match is by FAR the best. It's the most accurate, and the quality control is magnificent. I've been up to the company to see how they make it - there are so many quality control checks on each and every round that goes through there... Whew!!" Carlos' minimum accuracy standard for sniper rifles intrigued me. What does a master sniper consider the minimum necessary to get the job done? In his view, a military or police sniper rifle must be capable, at a minimum, of keeping 3-shot groups inside one minute of angle at 100 yards. On the subject of stocks, Carlos considers an adjustable cheekpiece and adjustable buttplate to be highly desirable options. Overall, however, his equipment preferences stress simplicity and reliability above all else. And, he should know. His preferences are based on extensive field experience, not theory. As he says, "I believe in the K.I.S.S. program: Keep It Simple, Stupid! I love that. I don't like nothin' complicated. I'm not a very learned man, but I know this job!"




http://usmcscoutsniper.org/sniperpages/Carlos.html
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #25 on: Today at 11:51:59 AM »

Timothy

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 02:08:30 PM »
'This rifle, in cal. .300 Winchester Magnum, was accurized by the Marine Corps rifle team armorers at Quantico, Va. and his ammunition was handloaded by loading shop personnel.'

Wouldn't it be great to have that facility at your disposal?

fightingquaker13

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 02:09:55 PM »
Dirt does not bother me but I hate commies. Those who let Russia into NATO should be shot. Russia will always be communist as long as former KGB members run their nation. Guess a few people forgot that their Doctrine was World Domination. Just my two bits on that. I will have to re-consider New Mexico and take a harder look. Texas rocks and lived in San Antonio for 6 months when I was in the Air Force. Beautiful place but better if you can speak fluent spanish.

Was looking at the Springfield M1A at Gander Mountain. Had a stainless steel barrel and synthetic stock. The price was a little over $1,200. Went back to buy it and was gone.  :(
Ignore the commie bit about New Mexico, its BS unless you're in Taos (which actually has the worlds best Mexican place, Paisanos {sic}  with blue corn burritos covered in green chile sauce, sorry, I was having a personal moment). The state is beautiful, has every kind of weather and terrain you could want, great food, friendly folks, lots of deer and javelina and elk, as well trout and if anyone on this board lives there and is hiring anyone to do anything, I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13

Texas_Bryan

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 02:46:19 PM »
Ignore the commie bit about New Mexico, its BS unless you're in Taos (which actually has the worlds best Mexican place, Paisanos {sic}  with blue corn burritos covered in green chile sauce, sorry, I was having a personal moment). The state is beautiful, has every kind of weather and terrain you could want, great food, friendly folks, lots of deer and javelina and elk, as well trout and if anyone on this board lives there and is hiring anyone to do anything, I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13

The great thing about Texas is we have got all that, except its better and there are no New Mexicans. ;D  Nah, New Mexicans are all right, once your waving good bye to them.

1911 Junkie

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 04:53:26 PM »
........ I'll work for damn cheap right now.
FQ13

My septic needs pumped. ;D
"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eye and shoot him with my old .45"  Hank Jr.

fightingquaker13

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Re: 30.06 vs .308 for tactical rifle
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 06:22:45 PM »
My septic needs pumped. ;D
And yet you live in Pa., pump ityourself. :-*
FQ13

 

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