5.7 for Self Defense

[Magnum]

Don't mean to drift off, but does anyone know what caliber the BG was hit with by the Police???
He took four hits, and I was just curious. I realize there any MANY variables to these situations, but I was just curious about the calibers involved in this tragedy.

[Timothy]

No way to know and I'm sure it's not going to become public, but whatever that brave young woman was shooting, it wasn't enough!  The POS is still alive!

[tombogan03884]

Probably a 9MM It was a Male officer arriving to back her up that actually brought down the BG in the linked article he says

"Todd said he fired his Beretta at Hasan. Hasan flinched, Todd said, then slid down against a telephone pole and fell on his back."

Since they are Army employees I would assume they are carrying M9's

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_officers

[Pathfinder]

Just read an article - from the AP - that indicated her backup was using a Beretta, so 9mm.

Military base = military hardware? 9mm ball then. Just a guess.

Same article indicated the terrorist had a laser sight on the 5.7mm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_officers

[Timothy]

Munley is a civilian police officer with the Department of the Army and serves as a SWAT team member and firearms instructor for the department, Medley said. He said she joined the police force in January 2008 after serving in the Army.

Medley said the Army police department had been doing ‘active shooter training’ as a precautionary measure since the 2007 mass shooting at Virginia Tech University in which a student killed 32 others before taking his own life.

“When you have an active shooter hurting people, our protocol is to move to the threat and eliminate it. That takes some courage and skill,” he said. “If there was a person there to respond, Kim Munley is the one we would want to be there.”

Some of Munley’s training in how to respond to a mass shooting came from instructors from a Texas State University-San Marcos program called Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training.

The program, known as ALERRT, teaches police officers and first responders how to engage “active shooters,” gunmen whose only intention is to kill.

Commander Terry Nichols of the San Marcos Police Department, who is also an ALERRT instructor, said Munley was part of a group of U.S. Department of the Army police officers who were trained by ALERRT instructors in Killeen. He said Munley attended a class in San Marcos as well.

“First responders have to be ready to engage the shooter, that’s what she did,” Nichols said of Munley. “She almost sacrificed her life to save others.”

ALERRT has trained about 20,000 officers in building entry techniques and rescue and survival strategies, how to deal with explosive devices and in other methods to take on active shooters.

Patrol officers are taught the kind of tactics usually given only to SWAT and the military, including how to get past a barricaded door safely and how to work in low light. Part of the training simulates what it’s like to be fired upon in combat — something many police officers never encounter until it’s actually happening,

The idea behind the training was to teach patrol officers how to to take on such shooters or at least minimize the damage until SWAT teams arrive. The methods were developed by members of the Hays County Sheriff’s Department, who joined with Texas State in 2004 for research support.

ALERRT has a training facility near the San Marcos Municipal Airport. Officers take classes, fire weapons at a shooting range, practice breaching various types of doors and train in a makeshift house, complete with old furniture and wall decorations. Tuition for the two-day, 16-hour basic course in San Marcos is free, thanks to grant money.

“The training we started in San Marcos was able to help this police officer stop violence, we’re very proud of that,” Nichols said.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2009/11/06/officer_who_shot_fort_hood_gun.html

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[PegLeg45]

Dynamics and variables are things that change from one incident to another.

I know a guy who was shot by a 30-06 hunting rifle and lived........he was pretty effed-up after the ordeal, but he lived. I also personally knew an individual who was killed by a .22lr bullet fired from a Stevens single-shot bolt action rifle.

The only thing you can count on is that you can't count on things to always go the way the statistics and 'rules' say they should go.
Anything can happen on any given day.

As always, YMMV.

 

[twyacht]

Whether its a .22 or a .50 Desert Eagle, the human body is amazingly tough. Yes the .22LR can kill a 13 year old girl 2 hours later, after being shot once in the back at a Fl. school and walk herself to the ambulance. 11/08.

As a BG can take multiple shots from LEO's and still survive with a larger caliber. 9mm, 40, etc,...from shooters with training.

The mindset is "My 1911 would have dropped his a**, with JHP's does not always happen in reality."

BUT it did STOP the assault. In those situations, caliber really doesn't matter. BG was hit 4 times and stopped shooting. That is the goal right?

Remember Ayoob recalling a BG shot at point blank range with an Ithaca 12g at 10 feet. Blew a hole the size of your fist through his chest,.. still took 4 officers to handcuff him, yes the BG died minutes later, but was still fighting until the end.

[Rastus]

I was sitting at dinner last night and said : "I wonder which one of the internet guys will use this an example of how "ineffective" the 5.7 is... Completely missing the issues of capacity and recoil management that likely contributed to the high hit percentage and large number of wounded and dead in a short time."......

Agreed Mr. Pincus.  Eventually there will be some information on where the victims were struck by the idiot.  That type of information is necessary for a real evaluation.

Whether its a .22 or a .50 Desert Eagle, the human body is amazingly tough. Yes the .22LR can kill a 13 year old girl 2 hours later, after being shot once in the back at a Fl. school and walk herself to the ambulance. 11/08.  ...........

LEO's I know are really fearful of the 22 LR.  They say it enters and bounces around...early time not much impact on the physiology but deadly after time.   True or false...I don't know, but I know officers and instructors who swear the 22 is more deadly than centerfire ball...I have a hard time with that but have an open mind.   Any comments from people who work ER rooms or who are LEO's or trainers?

I'm still keeping the 5.7 by the beside because the bullet construction and speed causes it to bleed energy and fall apart through walls.  I don't want to hurt one of the boys sleeping or hiding behind a wall...they are all supposed to go to ground but you can never be certain......

[Magnum]

Thanks All for the info.....Not to rehash, but, did MB say the BG's second handgun (Not Used) was a 357 revolver???
I hadn't heard that anywhere else......

[tombogan03884]

 The Article I linked to in my last post mentions that Officer Munley was hit in the legs.
To bring this back on topic, I will mention that the .223/5.56MM was developed using the same thought process as the 5.7, small high velocity round, and troops have been cursing them as barely adequate at best for the past 40+ years.
Every person with experience that I have listened to said they did not remember hearing the gun go off nor did they remember the recoil, so while those may be of interest on the range or plinking squirrels they seem irrelevant in a self defense weapon.
And when addressing the 20 round capacity, I just read a quote from Walt Rauch "If you can't solve the problem with 5 rounds, what makes you think five more (in this case 15 ) will do it".
Then of course there is plain old common sense, assuming effective hits, bigger holes bleed faster.
I may someday own a 5.7, but it will be for squirrels and targets, I'll trust my LIFE to bigger rounds.