Author Topic: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.  (Read 13238 times)

twyacht

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Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« on: May 29, 2009, 04:37:18 PM »
What are the thoughts about this decision? Dangerous precedent maybe unfolding.

Here's the video and article:

http://feeds.newsok.tv/services/player/bcpid1681694480?bctid=24432794001


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gTNvdhj4jgG6QSuzxN5K1Y527XxQD98G3DRG0

Oklahoma druggist arrested for killing holdup man

By TIM TALLEY – 2 hours ago

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Confronted by two holdup men, pharmacist Jerome Ersland pulled a gun, shot one of them in the head and chased the other away. Then, in a scene recorded by the drugstore's security camera, he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into the wounded teenager as he lay on the floor.


Now Ersland has been charged with first-degree murder in a case that has stirred a furious debate over vigilante justice and self-defense and turned the pharmacist into something of a folk hero.

Ersland, 57, is free on $100,000 bail thanks to an anonymous donor. He has won praise from the pharmacy's owner, received an outpouring of cards, letters and checks from supporters and become the darling of conservative talk radio.

"His adrenaline was going. You're just thinking of survival," said John Paul Hernandez, 60, a retired Defense Department employee who grew up in the neighborhood. "All it was is defending your employee, business and livelihood. If I was in that position and that was me, I probably would have done the same thing."

District Attorney David Prater said Ersland was justified in shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker once in the head, but not in firing the additional shots into his belly. The prosecutor said the teenager was unconscious, unarmed, lying on his back and posing no threat when Ersland fired what the medical examiner said were the fatal shots.


But many of those who have seen the video of the May 19 robbery attempt at Reliable Discount Pharmacy have concluded the teenager in the ski mask got what he deserved.


Mark Shannon, who runs a conservative talk show on Oklahoma City's KOTV, said callers have jammed his lines this week in support of Ersland, who wears a back brace on the job and told reporters that he is a disabled veteran of the Gulf War.

"There is no gray area," Shannon said. One caller "said he should have put all the shots in the head."


Don Spencer, a 49-year-old National Rifle Association member who lives in the small town of Meridian, 40 miles north of Oklahoma City, said the pharmacist did the right thing: "You shoot more than enough to make sure the threat has been removed."

Barbara Bergman, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and a professor at the University of New Mexico School of Law, likened the public reaction to that of the case of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker who shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob him when they asked for $5 on a subway in 1984.

Goetz was cleared of attempted murder and assault but convicted of illegal gun possession and served 8 1/2 months in jail.

Bergman said those who claim they used deadly force in self-defense have to show they were "in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury."

The pharmacy is in a crime-ridden section of south Oklahoma City and had been robbed before.


The video shows two men bursting in, one of them pointing a gun at Ersland and two women working with the druggist behind the counter. Ersland fires a pistol, driving the gunman from the store and hitting Parker in the head as he puts on a ski mask.

Ersland chases the second man outside, then goes back inside, walks behind the counter with his back to Parker, gets a second handgun and opens fire.

Irven Box, Ersland's attorney, noted the outpouring of support for the pharmacist, including $2,000 in donations, and said: "I feel very good 12 people would not determine he committed murder in the first degree."

Under Oklahoma's "Make My Day Law" — passed in the late 1980s and named for one of Clint Eastwood's most famous movie lines — people can use deadly force when they feel threatened by an intruder inside their homes. In 2006, Oklahoma's "Stand Your Ground Law" extended that to anywhere a citizen has the right to be, such as a car or office.


"It's a 'Make-My-Day' case," Box said. "This guy came in, your money or your life. Mr. Ersland said, `You're not taking my life.'" The gunman "forfeited his life."

Box said that another person might have reacted differently, but he asked: "When do you turn off that adrenaline switch? When do you think you're safe? I think that's going to be the ultimate issue."

If convicted, Ersland could be sentenced to life in prison with or without parole, or receive the death penalty.

The second suspect in the holdup, a 14-year-old boy, was arrested Thursday and faces attempted armed robbery charges.

Ersland is white and the two suspects were black. Anthony Douglas, president of the Oklahoma chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called a news conference to praise the district attorney for bringing the murder charge. But he said the organization has taken no position on Ersland's guilt or innocence.


"We want the system to do its job," Douglas said.

Parker's parents also expressed relief that Ersland faces a criminal charge.

"He didn't have to shoot my baby like that," Parker's mother, Cleta Jennings, told TV station KOCO.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

MikeBjerum

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 04:41:49 PM »
Sick sucker that I am I can't let this go by without remembering the gal in Texas that killed her husband (ran him over with an SUV I believe, then ran him over again) that was cheating on her.  When the judge sentenced her he told her it wasn't the revenge they frowned on in Texas ... It is the victory laps they don't allow.
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twyacht

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 04:46:10 PM »
Just to follow up, When is the threat to your life over? After one round? Six rounds? Ten rounds, a reload, and five more?

How many of you in DRTV land were trained to shoot, not once, but until all doubt of a critical threat is over?

I know my answer.  This is in a crime ridden part of OK. Store has been robbed before.  I hope Rob P. can chime in and others regarding this.







Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government. That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants."
Col. Jeff Cooper.

shooter32

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 04:51:43 PM »
Just to follow up, When is the threat to your life over? After one round? Six rounds? Ten rounds, a reload, and five more?

How many of you in DRTV land were trained to shoot, not once, but until all doubt of a critical threat is over?

I know my answer.  This is in a crime ridden part of OK. Store has been robbed before.  I hope Rob P. can chime in and others regarding this.











Talking with LEO friends of mine they all have said shot until the threat is over!!!
A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ~ Gerald Ford - August 12, 1974

Ichiban

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 04:53:42 PM »
The threat had been stopped and was over for quite some time
It looks like an execution to me.

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:34:41 PM »

Big Frank

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2009, 04:57:19 PM »
If in fact he shot the guy 5 times while he was lying on the floor, then it was probably murder. But I wouldn't want to say so if I was on a jury. People do stupid things when their full of adrenaline. He probably wasn't thinking straight.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

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tt11758

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 04:58:33 PM »
Hey, if it's worth doing once...............................................    ;D
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blackwolfe

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 04:58:42 PM »
"He didn't have to shoot my baby like that," Parker's mother, Cleta Jennings, told TV station KOCO.


Her frickin baby was an armed robber putting people in fear of their lives.  He lost.
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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 04:59:32 PM »
This fella turned his back a few times to the threat.  It doesn't look like he felt threatened in the least after he came back into the store.  

I wasn't there but that evidence is hard to refute....tough call....

tt11758

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Re: Self Defense? or Overkill? Pharmacist Charged.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2009, 05:01:03 PM »
All kidding aside, I think what will be important in this case is which shot the medical examiner determines to be the cause of death.  In other words, if he was already dead from the first (justified) shot, then the others can hardly be termed "murder".  Abuse of a coprse, perhaps, but not murder.

I suspect that chargingt this guy before the investigation is complete is an effort to calm racial tension.

But then, what the hell do I know?
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