Author Topic: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)  (Read 61298 times)

USSA-1

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Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« on: October 11, 2007, 08:00:41 AM »
For Warhawke...

Time to offer up you choice for a real battle rifle.  No 223's, 6.5's, or 6.8's.  30 cal. minimum.

For me, it's a difficult choice between the M1A and the FAL.  I've had both and I like both, but in the end, it would probably be a FAL (18" Congo model.)  Handling and ergonomics win out for me.  Optics can replace to poor sights on the FAL.  The trigger?....well that's another story.

What say you and why?

Erik
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Bidah

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 09:31:48 AM »
I really like my FAL.  My main complaint is that I am still working on not flexing the barrel, at least too much, when shooting prone at those long distances.  Wrecks the hitting the target portion of the equasion. Yes, I have hunted with it, and it has taken game.  :)  The sights do leave something to be desired, but they do work.   This year I took on one of the Appleseed shoots to get better, and in the end figured out that maybe the FAL is not the rifle for me.  So, I am out shopping for a new weapon.  My wife a month ago bought me an AR-10 to try out (Anniversary present), based on her bugging some friends and what they use.  So far I like it, but I know it is low on the list for a lot of people.  No comments needed, I am still testing it.  It looks promising, and it is nice to have the same manual at arms as my other AR's.  Of course those $50 mags... ouch!!  Maybe I should try a COBB next... .308 and G3 mags... hmmm..

Erik, you can fix that FAL trigger.  Get the TPR kit from Falcon Industries, smooth up the contact faces, and it doesn't come out too darn bad.  It does make a world of difference.  I have sold a number of others on this kit, and I have not run into an unsatisfied person yet. 

Also, depending on which model you have, I highly recommend you get the L1A1 style safety if you have a STG-58 model.  These can be had from DSA and make a big difference to that area as well.
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”  The Doctor

2HOW

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 01:52:46 PM »
Has to be a 762x39 varient , and Im not even choosy about which 1 AKS, AK47, AK74 etc.
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redstone_on_warpath

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 04:55:11 PM »
Has to be a 762x39 varient , and Im not even choosy about which 1 AKS, AK47, AK74 etc.


they are heardy guns and a nice shoot but are they really a prime choice for a awsome battle rifle hummmm i  am a huge fan of ak and i like the style but id like summin like ar-50   ;D primo choice 1 shot 1 kill

bluesman001

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 04:57:47 PM »
Springfield M1A

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #5 on: Today at 06:35:46 AM »

warhawke

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2007, 05:01:28 PM »
It would depend;

In a survivalist situation, where I and my family and friends were surviving after TSHTF and our concern was the occasional groups of looters;

M-1 'Tanker' Garand in 7.62 NATO w/ Flash suppressor

This is a handy reliable weapon with excellent iron sights. It provides modest firepower with minimal training, and surprisingly high firepower in the hands of an expert. One of the best features for a survivalist is the 8 shot en-block clips which can be kept loaded indefinitely without damage and which are far less susceptible to damage in use. Anyone who has bought surplus magazines knows to check the floorplate for damage from the previous user banging it on the ground going into the prone. I'd go for the 7.62 as opposed to the 30-06 because it is better suited for the shorter barrel, and it is more available now, still being a military issue round.

In a military situation, where I and my friends are fighting ravening hordes of invading whoever's;

Modified FN-FAL, with A2 Hampton rear sight ( http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=US061A2H ), 18" barrel, Styer flash suppressor, L1-A1 magazine release and safety, forward assist cocking handle, sand-cut bolt carrier and scope mount top cover. I would also add the stripper-clip top cover ( http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=620ASCM ) if I expected to operate without support for long periods.
I would also like to see a comparison of the Paratrooper bolt and the standard "Rat-tail" bolt for reliability. The Para bolt should, in theory, be more reliable as the rat-tail running down the stock is a probable point-failure source if it gets filled with dirt and debris, although the Para bolt-carrier is lighter and might therefore be slightly more susceptible to D&D in the action. Either way I would like the full stock, folders tend to loosen with use and are more likely to be damaged if you go around busting people in the chops with them. A bayonet lug would be mighty nice too, I would like to mount an Extrema Ratio bayonet ( http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/inglese/military/fulcrum_bayonet.htm ), what can I say, I'm old fashioned.

While the M-14 is more accurate and somewhat lighter and the H&K-91 is a bit more reliable under harsh conditions (a PTR-91 with a CETME trigger group and a Brugger & Thomat low-mount optic rail would be my #2 choice), the FN is easier to repair then the former and more user friendly than the latter. The Hampton lower gives you an M-16A2 rear sight, which will go a long way towards improving accuracy with iron sights. The forward assist cocking handle is a nice bit of insurance against failures to close. The L1-A1 mag release and safety are quicker than the metric versions. While the sand-cut bolt carrier significantly improves reliability in sandy and dusty conditions. I want a scope-mount top cover, not so much for the optic, but because they are far harder to damage. I tend to shy away from optics because, even though newer units designed for combat, like the Elcan, are very robust, they are still more easily damaged than well designed iron sights. I would probably mount an ACOG or Elcan if I had the chance but personally I can't afford one and I'm to cheap to pay the cost of 4 cases of 7.62 or a good mid-range 1911 for a scope. 

In a combat environment the higher firepower afforded by the 20 round magazine of the FN can be critical. Infantry wants to close with the enemy in order to avoid heavy weapons. Therefore you want to be able to get the maximum number of rounds downrange quickly and the 8 count "Feed Me bell" of the M-1 becomes a liability. At longer range you want to shoot and scoot before it starts raining steel. Either way you don't want to have to worry as much about getting your weapon reloaded on the fly. If I were operating without support I would include the stripper-clip top cover as FN magazines are fairly heavy and it makes more sense to carry 7 magazines and a few hundred rounds on strippers than to hump an extra 3 or 4 pounds of steel, after all one pound in the morning is ten pounds by nightfall. If, on the other hand, I was operating from a vehicle or base-camp I would simply carry more magazines and reduce the weight I carry in other areas.

To Bidah, the problem with the FN is not usually "Barrel Flexing" but the play between the upper and lower receivers, especially using the iron sights as the rear is on the lower receiver and the front is attached to the upper (this is why you shouldn't use a "Hasty Sling" on an FN either). I've gotten better results by simply putting my weak hand at the toe of the butt-stock and thus reducing the pressure on the receivers. You can also shim the lower to provide maximum tension against the frame locking lever, but this will cause higher wear on the lever.

Lastly, If I were to find myself in a place where the 7.62 NATO was not abundant I would go with a Romanian PSL or Yugoslavian M-76 sniper rifle in 7.62x54r. These are NOT SVD's, though they do look like it. They are enlarged AK's that use SVD magazines and fire the '54r round. They, like the SVD, would not even count as sniper rifles in the west, but rather as Designated Marksman Rifles. I would replace the muzzle-break on the PSL with a flash suppressor (as the M-76 has already) and I would have a butt-load of magazines (unfortunately no one makes a 20 round mag) and I would try to get a 4x scope, but otherwise I would leave it as is and concentrate on getting good ammo and practicing with it.
"Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem"
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DRat_in_VA

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 05:08:50 PM »
My vote is for the M1A due to its excellent sights and trigger.

Bidah

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 06:23:42 PM »

To Bidah, the problem with the FN is not usually "Barrel Flexing" but the play between the upper and lower receivers, especially using the iron sights as the rear is on the lower receiver and the front is attached to the upper (this is why you shouldn't use a "Hasty Sling" on an FN either). I've gotten better results by simply putting my weak hand at the toe of the butt-stock and thus reducing the pressure on the receivers. You can also shim the lower to provide maximum tension against the frame locking lever, but this will cause higher wear on the lever.

Thanks Warhawke.  That was something that I knew, but did not equate with my issue of flexing..  That is like turning on a beacon.. sheesh, why did I not think of that... dang it...  hmmm.. now what do I tell the wife... hmm..  :)  So really, to overall fix my problem I would need to move the sight to the top cover, which would mean going to an optic.

-Bidah
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”  The Doctor

warhawke

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 08:20:02 PM »
A scope will help, but mostly you need to adjust your shooting style to reduce the tendency to shift the receivers apart. Just get prone, lightly grip the pistolgrip, place your face lightly in your stock weld and grasp the toe of the stock with your weak hand (either in front of the sling swivel or behind it, whichever is better for you). Too many people bear down on the weapon like it's going to escape, you don't need to, let the bipod take the weight and the recoil, unless it's some lightweight POS aftermarket, in that case get a real bipod like the STG-58 unit. DSA has the STG bipod for $50 bucks.

http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=624 
"Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem"
(The one hope of the doomed is not to hope for safety)
Virgil

m25operator

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Re: Battle rifles (223 need not apply)
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 08:51:31 PM »
The M1a is my favorite, Excellent sight picture and excellent adjustments that do not need tools, even bullets to make those adjustments. Trigger is completely usable. ( I had an m25 whitefeather with the Rader trigger at 1.5lbs, wow!!! but no more) Excellent accuracy, excellent reliability. Built as an improvement on the M1 I think it accomplished it's task.  Excellent stock design, it points like a good shotgun with the standard military stock, gentle recoil, I've shot mine in a tee shirt many times.

Positive features.
1) Excellent sights, repeatable, hand adjustable for windage and elevation past 1,000 meters.
2) 20 round capable as issued.
3) stripper clip feedable as it comes from the factory.
4) Reliable with military ammo, in the jungle, desert or arctic environment.
5) points very well.
6) with a 200 yard zero, no practicle holdover is required up close.
7) accurate to 600 meters as issued with military ammo. 2 minutes of angle or better.
8) low recoil.
9) 2 stage trigger is repeatable and dependable, pretty darn good as it comes from the factory.
10) meant to be used with a sling, carried and fired, with no shift of zero.
11) bayonet and butt stroke capable.
12) as any good military rifle, you can break it down into it's components for detailed cleaning without tools.
13) elegant is not a mechanical feature but I think they look that way.

Negatives.
1) It's heavy.
2) unless you pay big bucks, optictal mounting is iffy at best ( I'll address this again later ).
3) a little long for my taste in close encounters, but shorter ones are available.


Now I have an m1a scout config.  l liked it the way it came with an aimpoint comp m2 and fiberglass  stock, but I purchase the Troy industries modular chassi, to convert it to an AR type platform with full length 1913 rail on top, and rails at 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. The stock is technically lighter, but it changes the balance dramatically, I have not shot it yet and will with hold comment until I do so. Scope or any optic mounting problems are solved, and the magwell is bigger. I've got a collapsible car15 stock on it now, but if it performs well, will go with and ace SOPMOD 4 OR 5 STOCK. Looks cool, but race paint don't make a race car.

There are many M1a's, BUT THIS ONES MINE, HER NAME IS MYRNA.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after my mother.
Like my Mother, she has NEVER let me down, For any of you who shoot US service rifle, I got my first leg points with this rifle, I shot a 464 out of 500 with issue match ammo and no sighter shots. The course of fire was out to 600 yards. At the 200 yard standing course, I can't remember my total score, but out of 20 shots, the last 12 were 10's and x's. With this rifle I truly believe, If I can see it, I can hit it.!!!

Sorry for the long post, Elvis has left the building.


" The Pact, to defend, if not TO AVENGE '  Tarna the Tarachian.

 

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