Author Topic: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight  (Read 8364 times)

Hazcat

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Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« on: October 11, 2009, 07:52:17 AM »
Oct 11, 8:28 AM (ET)

By RICHARD LARDNER


WASHINGTON (AP) - In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html
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tombogan03884

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 10:29:06 AM »
I saw this as well, I noted that failures happened after long periods of full auto fire.
FTA:
The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot.

 "My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot,

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed

It sounds like the problem is a lack of fire discipline among the troops, not a problem with the weapons.

Hazcat

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 10:33:23 AM »
Tom,

ASSUMING McKaig is correct about the number of mags and the time frame it works out to 12 rounds per minute ( i figured it using 30 round mags).

Also, do you think an AK could fire 12 30 round mags without jamming due to heat?
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tombogan03884

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 10:46:12 AM »
Tom,

ASSUMING McKaig is correct about the number of mags and the time frame it works out to 12 rounds per minute ( i figured it using 30 round mags).

Also, do you think an AK could fire 12 30 round mags without jamming due to heat?

He said 12 mags in about 30 minutes = 12 rounds per minute
Cyclic rate for an M 16 is about 15 RPM

 It sounds like they were slapping in a mag, holding the trigger down till it went click then repeating, an AK MIGHT stand up to that due to the loose tolerances. Look at it this way, start your car, leave it in Park, put your foot to the floor, how long will the engine last ?
This is why machine gunners USED to be taught to use SHORT bursts . In the "Spray and Pray thread you yourself pointed out what an ineffective waste of bullets this was.

Hazcat

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 11:01:30 AM »
He said 12 mags in about 30 minutes = 12 rounds per minute
Cyclic rate for an M 16 is about 15 RPM

 It sounds like they were slapping in a mag, holding the trigger down till it went click then repeating, an AK MIGHT stand up to that due to the loose tolerances. Look at it this way, start your car, leave it in Park, put your foot to the floor, how long will the engine last ?
This is why machine gunners USED to be taught to use SHORT bursts . In the "Spray and Pray thread you yourself pointed out what an ineffective waste of bullets this was.

WHAT?  The cyclic rate of fire for the m4 (and m16) is around 600 rounds per minute.
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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:48:57 AM »

Harmony Hermit

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 11:20:02 AM »
Same tired argument comes up every time there is a major fight. Been going on since Viet Nam.

The AR is probably the most studied and modified individual weapon ever fielded by any army. 90% of the troops say they have no complaints about the AR's.

But like everything else the AR has it's detractors, and they get press when they complain.

Of course the AK never jams (Their owners seem to die in greater numbers in every fight however).

long762range

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 11:47:41 AM »
I will not second guess men in the heat of battle.  Perhaps they did not use proper fire control but they were receiving very intense fire from an enemy which numbered over 100. 

All weapons will eventually fail.  They are after all only machines.

Even the M-1 Garand has it limits:

He fought gallantly on the Villa Verde Trail, Luzon, Philippine Islands. With 2 companions he occupied a position on a ridge outside the perimeter defense established by the 1st Platoon on a high hill. At about 3 a.m., 2 companies of Japanese attacked with rifle and machinegun fire, grenades, TNT charges, and land mines, severely wounding Pfc. Atkins and killing his 2 companions. Despite the intense hostile fire and pain from his deep wound, he held his ground and returned heavy fire. After the attack was repulsed, he remained in his precarious position to repel any subsequent assaults instead of returning to the American lines for medical treatment. An enemy machinegun, set up within 20 yards of his foxhole, vainly attempted to drive him off or silence his gun. The Japanese repeatedly made fierce attacks, but for 4 hours, Pfc. Atkins determinedly remained in his fox hole, bearing the brunt of each assault and maintaining steady and accurate fire until each charge was repulsed. At 7 a.m., 13 enemy dead lay in front of his position; he had fired 400 rounds, all he and his 2 dead companions possessed, and had used 3 rifles until each had jammed too badly for further operation. He withdrew during a lull to secure a rifle and more ammunition, and was persuaded to remain for medical treatment. While waiting, he saw a Japanese within the perimeter and, seizing a nearby rifle, killed him. A few minutes later, while lying on a litter, he discovered an enemy group moving up behind the platoon's lines. Despite his severe wound, he sat up, delivered heavy rifle fire against the group and forced them to withdraw. Pfc. Atkins' superb bravery and his fearless determination to hold his post against the main force of repeated enemy attacks, even though painfully wounded, were major factors in enabling his comrades to maintain their lines against a numerically superior enemy force.


God bless all the brave young men who serve and protect us.
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous.  If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for."

Texas_Bryan

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 01:04:18 PM »

All weapons will eventually fail.  They are after all only machines.

God bless all the brave young men who serve and protect us.

+1

12 mags in a half hour is a lot.  Maybe a gas piston system could have helped, couldn't even charge it because of the heat.  After 12 mags on a piston system it'd be hot but perhaps still manageable?  May not solve all the problems of the AR, but after you listen to most it seems like the best fix.

tombogan03884

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 01:19:48 PM »
I was taught that Cyclic rate for the M 16 A1 was 650 RPM
Wikipedia has it listed as 750 - 900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

The number of attackers is irrelevant, Despite it's full auto capability, an M16/M4 is NOT a "machine gun". While it is capable of full auto bursts it is not designed for the sustained fire role, attempting to use it in that manner only wastes ammo and ruins weapons.
The WWI machine guns that WERE designed for sustained fire were slower (550 - 600 RPM ) were water cooled, and still needed a replacement barrel on hand.
 That one individual fired 360 rounds in 30 minutes, how many hits did he get ?
Fast misses don't win fights.

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Re: Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 01:40:59 PM »
Why I don't claim to be a expert when it comes to the M4, but, if the gun is so hot you can't touch it... chances are its not going to work, no matter what it is.  Lets not forget this was not a guy at the range, that could not touch it, but a guy in combat. 
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

 

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