DEFENSIVE ACTIVE SHOOTER TRAINING -- IS IT VALUEABLE ? ?

[m25operator]

I'm not sure active shooter defense training is all that valuable to us, but if one of us is present and armed, I feel we have a duty to address the shooter if possible, this is usually the shooter shooting fish in a barrel, until someone, maybe one of us, gives resistance, but we also have to be cognizant of the officers coming to the scene. They don't know who the BG is, so even if we do the BG in, we don't  want to be confused with the BG. All appropriate protocols should be observed to allow the new on the scene LE's, to know who is who. Definitely don't have a firearm in your hand when they arrive.

[Michael Bane]

We spend a lot of time on Season 2 of TBD on active shooter scenarios. The best cases focus on GETTING YOU AND YOURS OUT OF HARM'S WAY! I realize this is a big time controversial issue in the culture, and the universe of possible solutions shifts crazily depending on which direction you look at it. If I am with family or friends, my responsibility is TO THEM — getting them out and safe — not to the larger crowd of people who when given the same choices I had made the decision to be sheep.

If I am alone, then maybe it's a different situation. From a personal standpoint, I am an excellent shot, but my eyesight is flawed...that changes my personal situation should I have the huge misfortune of being trapped in an active shooter situation.

LEO training — end the situation as quickly and as decisively as possible — may not be applicable for civilian situations. I think for one of us in such a situation, cover/concealment is critical...but having said that, there is no one "situation" that we can model. In my own mind, there's a big difference between a yard full of schoolkids and an office building full of people who could have chosen to be armed but opted to go on with their eyes closed.

One of the things I say next season is that an active shooter situation is the worst case, short of alien baby elephants parachuting in with assault rifles (tip of the hat to Jerry Pournelle on that). There is no "If A; then B" here...it is chaos, pure and simple. If there are any easy answers, I can't see them...

Michael B

[texcaliber]

There is no "If A; then B" here...it is chaos, pure and simple. If there are any easy answers, I can't see them...

Then training for it is moot and waste of time, along with any preparedness of any kind, but doing a show is not.

Please Mr. Bane put me in my place if i miss understood you I am not following exactly .

[Michael Bane]

Sigh...I am not and have never been "Mr. Bane." At least, I don't think I am...

I didn't say that at all. What I said is that LEO training for active shooter scenarios isn't necessarily applicable to civilians. We have different missions.

Training is never moot, but it can be wrong-headed. "Active shooter" covers a staggering range of possibilities, the most complex shooting situations possible. There isn't a 3-day class that prepares your or I for being trapped in such a situation...there can't be, because too many factors, too many variables, are acting on the system.

One trains by as much as possible breaking the complex system down and focusing on the elements — awareness and avoidance (I don;t spend a lot of time hanging around malls or large crowded places, and when I do my necessity I know where my OUT is); understanding the relationship(s) between movement and target; concealment, cover and bullet backstops; complex shots with lots of "no-shoots." And none of this stuff is easy.

Hope this clarifies my thoughts a bit...

mb

[texcaliber]

OOOOOOOh. Why didn't ya say so.

Upon rereading the first post I should of seen where you were coming from. I thank you for the clarification and I will do my best to read twice and respond once from now on.


Also about the "Mr. Bane" thing sorry I will kick my on arse and use MB from this post hence.

Seriously my apologies.   

[Sponsor]

[Pathfinder]

MB's (the alleged "Mr. Bane") comments reminded me of the old Zen adage - Train for nothing so you are prepared for anything.

It does not mean literally never train (or train for nothing), it means keep your training fluid and not focused on a single threat. If you do, you will miss the threats - and attacks - that come from areas you have not trained for. Through fluid training, you are better prepared to deal with any threat ("anything").

Bruce Lee as one example was a wonderful practitioner of this philosophy. From what I have seen, some of the training methods at Gunsite et al. also try to approach this mindset.

[Rastus]

I ask this question, because I don't have the experience nor have I done research to know. 

What are the elements common to being in an Active Shooter situation where someone is bent on mass killing compared to being in a robbery, home invasion, etc?  Now, what elements are specific to an Active Shooter based on mass carnage that don't generally exist in other situations?  That is what I would want to train defensively for....hit the relevent, meaningful points of like and dislike actions....if they do in fact exist.

I would think there are elements common to the Active Shooter that are common to other events....is the druggie who pulled a 38 on me on the beach (I'll never know how he got those 2" diameter bullets in that cylinder) when I was 15 any more or less dangerous to me than someone wanting to kill a lot of people and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time?  Is there something different about the events that would be key in helping survive?

My perception is that there is something helpful here.  I have been known to be wrong.

[tombogan03884]

One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in "Gun Free Zones".

[PegLeg45]

I ask this question, because I don't have the experience nor have I done research to know.  

What are the elements common to being in an Active Shooter situation where someone is bent on mass killing compared to being in a robbery, home invasion, etc?  Now, what elements are specific to an Active Shooter based on mass carnage that don't generally exist in other situations?  That is what I would want to train defensively for....hit the relevent, meaningful points of like and dislike actions....if they do in fact exist.

I would think there are elements common to the Active Shooter that are common to other events....is the druggie who pulled a 38 on me on the beach (I'll never know how he got those 2" diameter bullets in that cylinder) when I was 15 any more or less dangerous to me than someone wanting to kill a lot of people and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time?  Is there something different about the events that would be key in helping survive?

My perception is that there is something helpful here.  I have been known to be wrong.

I would certainly think that one commonality would obviously be the threat itself and the desire to remove ones self from the danger of the threat. Therein lies the rub because each threat is different.

You take a case of home invasion where an armed thug breaches your home and threatens you by wielding an 870 pump. In that situation, the single point of focus of the threat is on you (and loved ones if present) directly.
You take the same thug and plop him down in the local mall where he has suddenly and violently taken exception to Ed's Taco Emporium for screwing up his order and he decides to come back and vent his frustrations, with the same 870 pump, on the center food court at the mall. If you are in the mall, technically the treat is the same as at home, but the point of focus is broader.
The threat is the same but the variables are different.

*In the home, you are kind of automatically the direct focus of the assault.
*In the mall, you may or may not be in the direct focus of the assault, largely dependent on your location to the threat, and that is what would dictate your course of action from that point forward.
*In the home, you probably would be cornered with no option but to fight.
*In the mall, you might have multiple options dependent on the actions and movements of the shooter.

The only thing that is certain, is that nothing is certain.

Like MB said, there ain't no easy answers.........

But at least maybe a lot of folks are thinkin'.

[Big Frank]

One thing that is common to most mass shooting incidents is they happen in "Gun Free Zones".

So try to avoid gun-free zones just like you should avoid high crime areas.