Author Topic: Interesting take on Sniping  (Read 18644 times)

tombogan03884

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Interesting take on Sniping
« on: November 24, 2009, 03:53:24 PM »
http://warriortalk.com/

From Gabe Saurez :

The Guerrilla Sniper - Kalashnikov Sniper
 
Recently we have been in on discussions about the concept of the Kalashnikov Sniper. This has been partly due to discussion of the Tabuk, and partly because of the availability of the Romanian PSL, and the long barrelled Saiga 308, as well as the availability of the inexpensive optics.
 
But immediately we seem to get bogged down into definitions. What is a sniper? Americans have visions of a Hathcockian Sniper shooting people with a super-accurized bolt cannon from five miles away.
 
Here is what a friend of ours that works as a contractor and goes by the Nom d' guerre of Iraq Ninja has to say -
 
I think the word "sniper" is perfect for what Gabe is talking about.
 
You are standing near a wall when suddenly you hear a single zipping sound and a small chuck of brick explodes off the wall, 6 feet from your head. Your initial thoughts are:
 
A. Was that an AK47 or possibly a SVD?
B. Iraqi bricks are not very well made
C. This person shooting at me is probably not very well trained and not school certified as a sniper.
D. I am probably being shot at by a sniper and need to move NOW.
 
When you are being shot at from long range with single rounds of fire, what do most people yell to their teammates as they run for cover?
 
A. Designated marksman
B. Precision long range shooter
C. Military qualified sniper
D. SNIPER
 
Your friend takes a round to his chest, but his armored plate saves him as he is knocked to the ground. You barely hear a single shot. Before he can get up, another round hits him in the buttocks, travels up his torso into his heart. He was killed by a:
 
A. Designated marksman
B. Precision long range shooter
C. Military qualified sniper
D. SNIPER
 
So, since we are not US Military, I don't think we need to be stuck with US Mil terminology when it comes to this, but perhaps some guidelines so we know what we are talking about?

A DMR (Designated Marksman's Rifle) is a slightly accurized infantry rifle of the same general make as those of his comrades. It must be in the same caliber as the Infantry Rifle and use the same magazines. It may be longer and heavier, and scoped, to fulfill its precision fire role, but it cannot give up its infantry rifle role.
 
In the sense of the AK, we could look at a Tabuk-styled rifle, a longer barreled and scoped AK (Modified RPK) for examples.
 
A Semi Auto Sniper Rifle. You don't have to like the term, but this is different than the above and it is what I plan to call it. This is similar to the Accurized M21, and AR10s in the US Arsenal. In the AK genre we could look at the SVD, PSL, Yugo M76, etc. Here we would also group the Saiga 308.
 
It is the caliber and different magazine, as well as different construction rifle that makes the difference. Its role is far more specialized than the DMR. Maybe still not in the realm of an Accuracy International House Payment Rifle with a House Payment Scope firing special handloads at a mile and a half, but good enough to do what we want to do with it.
 
Some at Warrior Talk have suggested that an accuracy envelope should be about 2MOA or less from shooter and weapon. I tend to agree and that opens the selection to various semi auto systems.
 
The rifle is an interesting point of discussion.  In truth any rifle will do in this application as long as it is capable of the 200/600 requirement.  It should be affordable for the shooter since he will need to shoot it often and in varying conditions.  It should be able to use good quality ammo for the required precision as well as any surplus delinked machinegun ammo for closer engagements if that is all you can find.  The necessity to penetrate cover, armor and glass, as well as resist wind deviation and any intervening shrubbery, requires the use of a 30 caliber round as minimum. We want this artifact to be as compact as possible without compromising the mission.  A scope is mandatory.  I am well aware that there are people who can do wondrous things with iron sights.  They can do much better with a scope.
 
Where we stand at this point -
 
The Saiga 308 (Saiganov).  I have a Saiga 308 rifle converted by Will Hayden at Red Jacket that shoots 1.5 MOA with Corbon ammo.  Short and light, and in 7.62x51, it is a very good rifle and a first choice for those wanting an AK platform rifle for this mission.
 
The PSL Rifle Dynamics Conversion.  I have a PSL that was basically turned into a Dragunov by the capable hands and shop of Jim Fuller.  In 7.62x54R, it is the equivalent of the Saiga in every way and the 7.62x54R round very suited for the mission in discussion.
 
The Class - April 30-May2, 2010
Guerrilla Sniper
Kingman, AZ

Following the concept of the Guerrilla Sniper, this course will focus on the use of optically sighted rifles as sniper/marksman rifles. We will examine various models of weapons as well as their suitability for the application. While we will focus to a degree on the AK Rifle and the Guerrilla Sniper application, you can bring any type of rifle you wish to class.

In the 3-day course, students will bring their sniper skills to high levels. We will begin with zeroing, range estimation, and hopefully getting first round hits to 600 yards. Much of the class will also deal with field movement and field shooting against single and multiple adversaries (targets), and target engagement from 50 to 500 yards. And that only covers the first two days. Then it's a day of "hands-on" practical work, planning/execution at actual "start to finish" missions. This course is a "must" for any serious student of the rifle!

Learn to apply precision shooting skills under any all conditions, placing emphasis on how to fight with a sniper rifle instead of simply shooting bulls eyes.

Jackel

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 04:42:20 PM »
thanks tom.

interesting read.
you are a redneck when You think "loading the dishwasher" means getting your wife drunk.

You know your a redneck You ever got too drunk to fish.

Badgersmilk

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 09:59:24 AM »
BRILLIANT!  Thank you for the best post I've ever read on here!!! 

I admit I have stopped reading, walked away for a minute, and am posting this after only getting to the line about needing only "2 MOA accuracy"...  But am mentally working through that so I can continue reading.   ;D ;D ;D

I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I...  Ugh.   :(

shooter32

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 10:01:28 AM »
BRILLIANT!  Thank you for the best post I've ever read on here!!! 

I admit I have stopped reading, walked away for a minute, and am posting this after only getting to the line about needing only "2 MOA accuracy"...  But am mentally working through that so I can continue reading.   ;D ;D ;D

I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I accept this statement as a practical reality.  I...  Ugh.   :(

check this one out! http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9995.0
A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ~ Gerald Ford - August 12, 1974

Badgersmilk

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 11:00:41 AM »
BOTH GREAT STUFF!!!

The class looks EXCELLENT!!  Best of all it's good seeing what appears to be "normal citizens" attending!  Opposed to the normal warrior / soldier wannabe's commonly pictured on TV and in magazines.

I like the rifle and caliber choices.  While in theory their the right choice.  For "battlefield pickup" possiblities i wonder what is NK using right now?  Or China?  If our back yard is the battlefield, I don't honestly forsee a whole bunch of .308 laying around after a fire fight(though it is prefered for performance).   :-\

Then again, my guess is there will be PLENTY of .223 laying around unfired next to the dead people that relied on it.  Doesn't mean I'd want it to defend my life with!


MUCH TO THINK ABOUT.

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #5 on: Today at 02:50:36 PM »

leatherman92

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 04:30:11 PM »
Great read THANKS!!! 8)
One riot,one redneck

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 10:49:10 AM »
I can generally agree with the OP.  I've been issued and trained with the SPR Mk 12 (had a hand in that development) M21, M24, SR25 (now M110), M82A1 (now M107) and others.  These are specialized rifles for the sniper doing different roles then the DMR which is a infantry's man battle rifle fitted with an optic, usually better barrel and more marksmenship.  The DMR is a member of the squad that does all the same duties as a rifleman, wheter patrolling, room clearing, assualts etc.  A sniper works in 2 man teams usually and hunts the enemy or supports from fixed positions.  Another good example of a western DMR is an AR15 with optic, M14/M1A,G3 or FAL with scope.  Here's a few captured rifles from Iraq along with some of my issued sniper rifles.

Russian built SVD in 7.62x54R

Romainian PSL in 7.62x54R with Bayonet, trigger man is Steve Austin

Iraqi Tabuk 7.62x39mm semi only, adj rear sight, long RPK bbl, based off Yugoslavian M70 AK47 with PSO scope(left side of reciever has rail for scope mount)(sometimes found with shorter 20 rd mag), and another SVD


Mk13 Remington 700 in .300 Win Mag (me behind gun)

Mk12 SPR in 5.56x45mm with suppressor and PVS-17 night vision scope.  SPR is a sniper rifle from the ground up, not a DMR

.50 cal Barrett M82 in Kuwait 2000 with me behind the gun


CD
Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15 & 16' Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14 & 17'

tombogan03884

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 10:56:55 AM »
 Cool pics CD.  ;D

Rastus

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2010, 11:11:36 AM »
I can generally agree with the OP.  I've been issued and trained with the SPR Mk 12 (had a hand in that development) M21, M24, SR25 (now M110), M82A1 (now M107) and others.  These are specialized rifles for the sniper doing different roles then the DMR which is a infantry's man battle rifle fitted with an optic, usually better barrel and more marksmenship.  The DMR is a member of the squad that does all the same duties as a rifleman, wheter patrolling, room clearing, assualts etc.  A sniper works in 2 man teams usually and hunts the enemy or supports from fixed positions.  Another good example of a western DMR is an AR15 with optic, M14/M1A,G3 or FAL with scope.  Here's a few captured rifles from Iraq along with some of my issued sniper rifles.
ope(left side of reciever has rail for scope mount)(sometimes found with shorter 20 rd mag), and another SVD

.50 cal Barrett M82 in Kuwait 2000 with me behind the gun


CD

Interesting to see the blast pattern in the sand.  How do you like the 300 Win Mag vs. 7.62 round?  I'm on hold because I'm getting an AR 7.62 for now to avoid a possible rush if more gun control efforts rear their head, but I have plans to pick up a 300 Win Mag in Rem 700 or Savage with Accustock so I'm interested in a real world pick one round comparison from a professional.

Mostly, thank you for your service and sacrifice.  Godspeed and may you and all of our troops get home soon.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
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Combat Diver

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Re: Interesting take on Sniping
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2010, 11:38:13 AM »
The Remington M24 (7.62) or Mk 13 (. 300 WM)is the only bolt gun that I have experience with in actual use even though I did use several M1903A4s on the range (still had them in the unit arms room until mid 90s).  First I prefer semi guns for sniping use do to the fact its not always one shot/one kill/one target.  Targets move quickely and their are lots of targets at time behind cover.  Bolt guns are slow to reload with scope on top of reciever compared to a magazine fed weapon (my first fire fight, one of my fellow team mates had a M24 and it was a 5 shot club in a ambush).  Gas guns can be accurate and I shoot iron sights on my issued M14 National Match to 1000yds.  There is a new .300 round being issued (225gr SMK) that gives a range out to 1500yds if you range and call your winds correctly.  You need very good optics to see a target and identify it as a threat that far.  Unless military, 99.9999% of things will not be target that far.  For an individual I would suggest the 7.62/.308 as ammo is cheaper, lighter in weight/recoil and more plentiful.  Rifle is personal preference.  I own no magnum rifles what so ever (.308 bolt (com. 98) and semi FAL, 30-06 M1903, and 7x57/7.9x57 Mausers)  However, if SHTF at home my go rifle is a M4ergry AR with Aimpoint (can engage to 500 with set up).

Do wish I could attend the class, sounds fun and interesting.  Did find one photo with the M24 with me (still prefer semi guns).


CD
Iraq: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09,15 & 16' Afghanistan: 09,10,11,14 & 17'

 

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