Pincus on Sub-Compact 1911's

[Ping]

+1

+100

I have shot the Kimber 1911's. I like them but would not own a compact version. That is where my Glock 30SF comes in.

M58 is also on the money with using your brains. What may be good for you may not be good for another.

[robheath]

Larry Vickers says the best platform for the 1911 is the full size Gov. with the 5" bbl.  Thats what I have and will always use.  I'm no expert and I still have FTEs ever so often but it is usually fro dirt or limp wristing.  I also run a 19lbs spring so I only shoot full load rounds, 185 grain or 230.  185 just because thats what Hornady critical defense comes in.  I dont trust the smaller 1911s.  JMB was right with the 5".

[Steven Cline]

I saw this on another forum and managed to resist posting on it there - but I can't let it slide twice.

This is about choosing the wrong weapon for the task at hand.  What Rob is teaching is essentially a combat handgun course where hundreds (to thousands) of rounds go through the gun in a very short time.  Sub-compact 1911s (or any other sub-compact) are notoriously hard on recoil springs and many manufacturers recommend changing them at some ridiculous (300 rounds?) interval.  It is like taking your 12" chain saw to a lumberjack competition.  Wrong tool for the event.

A well maintained sub-compact is a perfectly viable self defense weapon.  That doesn't mean that it is the tool for post-apocalyptic street clearing activities.

A handgun is a tool.  If you are going to use it, it is your responsibility to know how it works, maintain it, and know how to use it.

I think Rob would better served to advise his students before they show up that the sub-compact is not the right tool for his course.

Well said.

My full-sized Kimber has 75k through it, goes several thousand rounds between cleanings.  That goes to a class.  I think I recall that the smaller 1911s require being lubricated more frequently.

I've seen plenty of Glocks, Springfields, S&Ws puke through the years... oldly, not a CZ that I can recall.  Well, whatever.

[sksmedic]

I have to agree that the right tool needs to be used for the task at hand. That being said, I have 15k rounds through one of my sub compact kimbers and I have yet to experience a failure. On the other hand I had nothing but failures with a more expensive sub compact kimber I used to own. It is reasonable to expect a $700-$1200 gun to perform when pushed a little bit. I grew up in a 1911 household and to my father there is no other gun. If I were going to be involved in a SHTF situation I would feel comfortable with a 1911, but I have to say it wouldn't be my first choice. I would probably go with a Glock. It's like the ak 47 of pistols  It just works. Like that loose sloppy chick at the bar. It goes bang every time. She's a sure thing.

[santahog]

FWIW..

I carry a bull barrel LW 4" Kimber for EDC. It's a Tactical Pro II. It ran me $1,200 a little less than 4 years ago. The only time I have a problem with it, I know it's time to replace the spring.. I've got about 5k rounds through it. It feels perfect in my hand. I do love it.. It's quite accurate..

That said, it hasn't been as reliable as a new Remington R-1 that has metal shavings falling out if it, round for round, shooting both that afternoon. I took the Remington to get cleaned up and smoothed out and night sights, and it will be replacing the Kimber for EDC as soon as available and proven.. I expect to take the laser grip off of it and probably trade it for a chrome Bersa 1911, another Remington R-1, Glock 17 or 21 with an after market trigger, an AK or a couple of pump guns.
As pretty as they are, I don't think I need another Kimber, just because it's a Kimber.. I can get a better value for the money with something more reasonably priced..
Again, FWIW..

If anybody's interested in that kind of trade, let me know. I'll get pics at some point and post over in classifieds.. I've got the box, original mags and all. It has night sights that are still fine. Probably got another two years left on them..

Rob gets on my nerves.. I think it's just his manner that yanks my chain. He comes across as a bit of a snob or something..
I don't have enough good feedback to bother with a 3" 1911, his opinion not withstanding. To me, one of the 1911s strong suits is the weight of a steel frame keeping the flip down.. You don't get that with the sub-compact. I'm done with a LW 1911, either way, but anybody who harps on anything the way he does on any 1911 has more to his opinion than performance alone. He's just mad at it, for some unspoken reason..

My opinion.. Worth what you paid for it..

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

FWIW..

I carry a bull barrel LW 4" Kimber for EDC. It's a Tactical Pro II. It ran me $1,200 a little less than 4 years ago. The only time I have a problem with it, I know it's time to replace the spring.. I've got about 5k rounds through it. It feels perfect in my hand. I do love it.. It's quite accurate..

That said, it hasn't been as reliable as a new Remington R-1 that has metal shavings falling out if it, round for round, shooting both that afternoon. I took the Remington to get cleaned up and smoothed out and night sights, and it will be replacing the Kimber for EDC as soon as available and proven.. I expect to take the laser grip off of it and probably trade it for a chrome Bersa 1911, another Remington R-1, Glock 17 or 21 with an after market trigger, an AK or a couple of pump guns.
As pretty as they are, I don't think I need another Kimber, just because it's a Kimber.. I can get a better value for the money with something more reasonably priced..
Again, FWIW..

If anybody's interested in that kind of trade, let me know. I'll get pics at some point and post over in classifieds.. I've got the box, original mags and all. It has night sights that are still fine. Probably got another two years left on them..

Rob gets on my nerves.. I think it's just his manner that yanks my chain. He comes across as a bit of a snob or something..
I don't have enough good feedback to bother with a 3" 1911, his opinion not withstanding. To me, one of the 1911s strong suits is the weight of a steel frame keeping the flip down.. You don't get that with the sub-compact. I'm done with a LW 1911, either way, but anybody who harps on anything the way he does on any 1911 has more to his opinion than performance alone. He's just mad at it, for some unspoken reason..

My opinion.. Worth what you paid for it..

This is what keeps me from taking his classes.  My best carry gun is a 1911, and it has only given me guff in matches where I over oil in a dusty desert setting.  Self defense is not a 600 round marathon in the Arizona desert!  I refuse to go out and buy a Glock just so I can pay him for a class!

Sorry Rob, but Glock did not die on a cross to save me, and I will not treat it that way.

[TWillis]

I was confused about 1911's and why someone would carry a low capacity low velocity weapon with reliability issue's until someone cleared it up for me carrying a 1911 is not about carrying a life saving personal defense device but more about making a personal statement. Much like a woman's Gucci bag or Prada purse 1911's are there to make a statement. They say hey look at me I'm old school and totally money baby. They can't comprehend modern striker fire pistols because they are so banal and plain. They're simply a tool that works and as such are not of interest to the typical 1911 carrying individual even when the striker fired pistols constantly outperform in reliability. When asked about this most talk up the trigger I've yet to find a trigger worth 2,000 plus dollars and on that note what kind of shooter are you (as one person told) if 1911's are the only gun you can shoot well.  Look if you want to carry an art piece own it say carrying a BBQ gun is more important than function. I personally find great amusement  in walking up to these guys and asking hey is that the new Jimmy Choo 1911 no they say it's whoever's the hot new sexy fashion sorry I mean gun designer is right now and they'll pull it out unload it and let me pet it before they run their fingers through their hair plugs jump back in their Year One Camaro and blaze off into the sunset with their busty second wife on their way to whatever fills that midlife crisis.

[Ichiban]

You are going to need better bait than that to get someone to respond to such banal trolling, boy.

Thanks for playing and please accept this home version of the game as a consolation prize.

[BAC]

I was confused about 1911's and why someone would carry a low capacity low velocity weapon with reliability issue's until someone cleared it up for me carrying a 1911 is not about carrying a life saving personal defense device but more about making a personal statement. Much like a woman's Gucci bag or Prada purse 1911's are there to make a statement. They say hey look at me I'm old school and totally money baby. They can't comprehend modern striker fire pistols because they are so banal and plain. They're simply a tool that works and as such are not of interest to the typical 1911 carrying individual even when the striker fired pistols constantly outperform in reliability. When asked about this most talk up the trigger I've yet to find a trigger worth 2,000 plus dollars and on that note what kind of shooter are you (as one person told) if 1911's are the only gun you can shoot well.  Look if you want to carry an art piece own it say carrying a BBQ gun is more important than function. I personally find great amusement  in walking up to these guys and asking hey is that the new Jimmy Choo 1911 no they say it's whoever's the hot new sexy fashion sorry I mean gun designer is right now and they'll pull it out unload it and let me pet it before they run their fingers through their hair plugs jump back in their Year One Camaro and blaze off into the sunset with their busty second wife on their way to whatever fills that midlife crisis.

Rob?

[MikeBjerum]

Every once in a while someone joins with no other goal than to pick a fight.

I carry a 1911, because it out performs my poly guns - yes - I own three poly guns.

Facts:

The 1911 is slimmer to carry than a poly gun;
A self defense action takes less than five shots, so eight or nine should be no problem;
Single stack magazines are slimmer and easier to carry than thicker double stack poly gun feeders;
A low velocity dinosaur delivers a power factor of 199,750;
A 9mm delivers a power factor of 132,250
         Three shots of my inferior loads equal four of yours;
Nobody has ever named a shooting injury after John Moses Browning's gun
         Glock Hand anybody

Let me add that my guns are not pieces of art or beauties.  They are hard working tools.  I have an idiot scratch on my 1911 that would have me as a poster child for a marketer we discussed on another thread.  I have rust, dark spots and grime on my guns.  At a seminar yesterday I pulled out my two main carry guns and heard gasps.  The bluing is worn, there are dark spots in the finish, the screw heads show rust, and one of the white dots on my rear sight is missing.  But guess what - I can draw this gun from concealment in under 1.5 seconds, it goes bang every time, it delivers shots to center mass from any hold position, and it will deliver over 135,000 power factor into an eight inch circle at 65 yards nine out of nine shots.  Tell me what is wrong with this choice!

Choosing a personal defense tool is a personal matter.  It must fit you, work for you, it must go bang every time you want it to, and you have to carry it.

You carry your choice, and I'll carry mine.  I'm sure you don't want a .457" diameter hole in your body any more than I want a .356" hole in me.