The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: rojawe on December 27, 2009, 08:36:34 PM
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm :'( :-\
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Interesting test. Similar tests have been done on Best Defense and Personal Defense TV. Bottom line: Have an idea of what's on the other side of what you are shooting. Most especially in a home defense situation. This goes for any ammo, specialty or not.
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wholy crap did you see the price of the stuff
when you compare it to CorBon or similar "defence" rounds
talk about a "Wankers Round" really going to catch a few people in the marketing on that one and they would not do there own tests to see how it works
Interesting test. Similar tests have been done on Best Defense and Personal Defense TV. Bottom line: Have an idea of what's on the other side of what you are shooting. Most especially in a home defense situation. This goes for any ammo, specialty or not.
exactly and I would bet they would rely on the marketing on something like those rounds
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It's cheaper to get robbed by the thug than to shoot off the ammo.
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Why aren't I impress with $70 worth of ammo?
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I'll stick to Cor-Bon.
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At that price I can pay them to go away.Seriously, its a neat concept, but if you can't afford practice ammo, what good is it? Its why I carry a 9mm vs a 10mm. Accuracy beats ballistics, and accuarcy is the result of rounds fired. It sucks, but its an iron law, there is no getting around it.
FQ13
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I will stick with shot placement with my own hand cast lead boolits stuffed into my own reloaded/handloaded ammo.
;)
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I will stick with shot placement with my own hand cast lead boolits stuffed into my own reloaded/handloaded ammo.
;)
Very bad idea. DO NOT use handloads for SD. Buy the boxed stuff. The reason is the prosecutor can nail your ass to the wall for being a blood thirsty gunfighter type if you use handloads. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defendant, not being satisfied with the lethality of what our police carry, crafted in his basement a cruel and deadly round. Designed to cause not just a wound, but.......". Buy some Gold Dots and save yourself the hassel. Just my .02.
FQ13
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I'll stick with my SXT's, Cor-Bon's, Speer GD, and Rem. GS. Hell, even some of my old Federal Hydra-Shok's will be fine.
I even have some old .357 Magnum PMC Starfire's that will be just fine.
For the price, forget it....
Would be cool if he tried the DRT "Dead Right Ammo" another specialty round I've seen in the cheaper than dirt catalog.
Supposed to be some super powder?!? That literally detonates when in contact with tissue????
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Very bad idea. DO NOT use handloads for SD. Buy the boxed stuff. The reason is the prosecutor can nail your ass to the wall for being a blood thirsty gunfighter type if you use handloads. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defendant, not being satisfied with the lethality of what our police carry, crafted in his basement a cruel and deadly round. Designed to cause not just a wound, but.......". Buy some Gold Dots and save yourself the hassel. Just my .02.
FQ13
I have to conditionally disagree on this one. In NJ one gets crucified for shooting a perp with hollow point...it is considered "malicious intent". That, coupled with the fact that we live in an area where neighbors are nearby rules out hardball in my mind. We now use my own tested reloaded lead ammo for home defense. The lead stands a better chance of stopping somewhere in my house instead of someone else's house. I have also reduced the powder charges somewhat...they are still strong, but will lose velocity in the walls, etc.
A good defense attorney could point out the composition of your reloads and the reasoning behind their use to show responsible gun ownership and reluctant use.
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Very bad idea. DO NOT use handloads for SD. Buy the boxed stuff. The reason is the prosecutor can nail your ass to the wall for being a blood thirsty gunfighter type if you use handloads. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defendant, not being satisfied with the lethality of what our police carry, crafted in his basement a cruel and deadly round. Designed to cause not just a wound, but.......". Buy some Gold Dots and save yourself the hassel. Just my .02.
FQ13
This is an urban legend There has been no documented accounts of anyone ever getting busted in court for using reloaded ammo.
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^^^ I really can't put it any more succinctly than what 2HOW just posted. Thanks 2HOW!!! ;D
If anyone has any links to case law where a plain ol' civilian used handloads in a bona fide'd self defense situation and then got "his ass busted", I will at least keep an open enough mind to click on them and then read them myself.
Thanks in advance.
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I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. Someone on this board must be, and I would like to here from them. 2How may be right and it is just an urban myth. Its just what I have been taught. If anyone knows for sure, we would all benefit from the answer.
FQ13
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FQ, you have spouted this before and you were taught wrong.
If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.
The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.
You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.
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I think my 1224 rounds of VERY EFFECTIVE 7.62x25 for 130 dollars will do just fine thanks.
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FQ, you have spouted this before and you were taught wrong.
You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.
In other words......YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!!!!!!
;D
Well said Junkie.... ;)
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Very bad idea. DO NOT use handloads for SD. Buy the boxed stuff. The reason is the prosecutor can nail your ass to the wall for being a blood thirsty gunfighter type if you use handloads. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defendant, not being satisfied with the lethality of what our police carry, crafted in his basement a cruel and deadly round. Designed to cause not just a wound, but.......". Buy some Gold Dots and save yourself the hassel. Just my .02.
FQ13
Not true, but it could cost you extra $$$ in defense lawyer costs....
Chalk it up to the high cost of LIVING.
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Money well spent, in my opinion since it is better to be judged by 12 (of the dumbest people who couldn't come up with a weak @$$ excuse to get out of jury duty) than to be carried out by 6 (of your still living friends and relatives).
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FQ, you have spouted this before and you were taught wrong.
If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.
The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.
You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.
No homework and no putting on airs either. Its just what I was informally advised in my Tx. CHL class and what I have been told here in Fl. As I said, I don't know whether its true or not, and agian I don't claim to be the guru. But, it seems to me that it is both cheap and easy to avoid borrowing trouble by using standard boxed ammo unless you are in Jaybets situation with insane ammo restrictions. I did not mean to sound pretentious, just pass on what I was told by folks who at least theoretically, know what they're doing. Take it or leave it. No gospel just my .02, YMV.
FQ13
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the stuff's too expensive for anyone without a government-funded ammo budget to use. The only ppl who I think MIGHT use these type of rounds are Air Marshalls. SWAT teams could find them useful, but I doubt the department heads would pay that much when defense ammo like Federal can be had for less than half the price for a box of more rounds. Your Good Ol' boys down in TX/GA/wherever with their carry permits ain't gonna spring for this stuff.
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I really don't mean to drift this thread that far off topic...but...
I have gotten in quite a few internet pissing contests lately because....well...because in my opinion people:
A. just believe everything they read and hear
B. don't, in general, have a questioning attitude or mentality themselves
C. just find it easier to pass off something they heard and unbeknownst to them come off making it sound like the gospel truth
(read that as lazy)
D. weren't taught to think critically
E. don't view what other people tell them in the light that that person may have his/her own agenda to push
F. all of the above.
I will give you an extreme example. Seven hundred years ago, people thought that the earth was flat. Everybody said it and knew it, so it must have been true.
I could give other examples, but I think I have made my point.
Anywhoo...getting back more on topic...like I said I will stick to my cheap cast boolits because...well...they are cheap....and I have to balance that cheapness against the highly unlikely event that I will ever have to shoot someone, and kill them, righteously, and then be taken to either a civil or criminal trial later on.
Anywhooo....if anyone couldn't see through the hype of the ammo in question...well they probably also drink Brawndo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04
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Actually according to Mossad Ayoob, (Founder of Lethal force Institute, Police Officer, and Nationally recocognized expert witness for the last 20 years ) FQ is sort of right, and 2 How is wrong.
According to an Interview Ayoob did, (I think it was Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, but I'm not going to listen to all of them to find the link ) He said hand loads were a no no for SD. However, the prosecutor trying to paint you as not being satisfied with the damage of commercial ammo is only a small part of it, (you would be in a gun unfriendly court, and have problems any way ) The primary reason he cited, along with an example from personal experience, was that The POLICE investigation bases range estimates on powder residue, closer range, more residue, longer range less. if you are using commercial loads forensics tests can now establish distance fairly accurately against factory samples, where as this is less accurate IF they believe your claims about the load you used, with factory ammo you have Lab verification of your story, with handloads it's your word against what the Prosecutor claims.
I strongly recommend NOT using handloads for SD.
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I will stick with shot placement with my own hand cast lead boolits stuffed into my own reloaded/handloaded ammo.
;)
I Agree with FQ here don't use hand loads. Federal makes some very nice expanding FMJ rounds for you guys in New Jersey to use so you get around the ban on HP ammo. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx
This is an urban legend There has been no documented accounts of anyone ever getting busted in court for using reloaded ammo.
You can do what you want of course, but I've heard Massad Ayoob discuss this before and his reasons were logical. So I'm certainly not go to do it. Their are alternatives to using handloads/reloads so I'm not going to risk my future freedom on it true or not. I can't recall specifically he discussed it in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" but it should be required reading for anyone to carry a firearm. It might discuss it though here is another pace to investigate if you wish, http://comcondev.com/ It's the Armed Citizens Legal Defense network, LLC. I think membership their is a good Idea for anyone that owns a gun for SD purposes!
FQ, you have spouted this before and you were taught wrong.
If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.
The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.
You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.
In other words......YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!!!!!!
;D
Well said Junkie.... ;)
As he is not risking anything by carrying factory loads, then I'd say it not his place to research it for YOU. Go ahead carry your hand loads/reloads IF you shoot somebody and IF an overzealous prosecutor tries to take your freedom for it then you will have no one but yourself to blame! IF you never shoot anyone then no harm no foul! But that's a lot of IF's. And I like my FREEDOM!! ;D
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Actually according to Mossad Ayoob, (Founder of Lethal force Institute, Police Officer, and Nationally recocognized expert witness for the last 20 years ) FQ is sort of right, and 2 How is wrong.
According to an Interview Ayoob did, (I think it was Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, but I'm not going to listen to all of them to find the link ) He said hand loads were a no no for SD. However, the prosecutor trying to paint you as not being satisfied with the damage of commercial ammo is only a small part of it, (you would be in a gun unfriendly court, and have problems any way ) The primary reason he cited, along with an example from personal experience, was that The POLICE investigation bases range estimates on powder residue, closer range, more residue, longer range less. if you are using commercial loads forensics tests can now establish distance fairly accurately against factory samples, where as this is less accurate IF they believe your claims about the load you used, with factory ammo you have Lab verification of your story, with handloads it's your word against what the Prosecutor claims.
I strongly recommend NOT using handloads for SD.
Agreed....having ammo that's performance can be replicated by the CSI's may be the thin line that proves your side of the event. And most handloaders aren't as precise as the ammo factories when it comes to reproducing loads. That's why I even make sure any FMJ I carry are factory....and I save the box tabs to show what lot it came from....
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More back to the original topic I've seen that before on the Box O Truth website made me glad on two counts one the winchester ammo he tested first is the same stuff I carry and it made me very happy to see it performed top notch. Second I almost bought some of that crap at the gun show a few years ago the damage it did to a block of clay was impressive, but were not made of clay were made of water. So I'm doubly glad I didn't waste any money on that ammo! :)
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Heck....I live in Assachusetts and I carry factory JHP's, I was just trying to be a smartass with my comment because it's fun to pick on FQ....I don't reload and probably never will.
Up here, we recently had a shooting by an off duty cop (he may have been a special duty cop, whatever that means) while he was in a hospital, killed the fella trying to stab a doctor so he wasn't even part of the frakus. He was off duty, with his own firearm, in the right place at the right time. Crazy BG, ZERO! Good Guy +1...
I don't recall any discussion in the news or in print pertaining to what his CCW sidearm was loaded with. It was justified, pure and simple. If the shooting is rightous, it doesn't matter what type of bullet it was IMO...if not, then get a good lawyer, prosecutors are paid like crap anyway. Find one better, smarter and more expensive....and hope for the best. When it comes to the safety of my family, I'll go to jail if I think I'm in the right.
.02....your milage, yada, yada.....
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If you can't provide proof, then you are wrong and need to stop posting incorrect info that others might mistake as gospel.
The burden is not for us to prove you wrong (because no such acts have taken place to find) but for you to prove yourself correct.
You are not a professor on here and do not get to assign homework.
Geez...I really didn't take it that way when FQ said that...seemed more like an opinion or a "belief". I admire and trust a LOT of you guys, but as far as I know there's only ONE guy who dictated the gospel, and he doesn't post here. If you assume someone's opinion is fact, then shame on ya.
My opinion about my own reloads for SD is just that....my opinion. Anyone is free to read it and agree, disagree, or whatever.
It seemed to me, though, that FQ was saying that he realized that maybe he was misinformed and would like to know which side is backed up by fact.
It's one of the great things about this site is how folks of different strokes can converse without getting into pissing contests like on a lot of other sites.
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Tyler, one comment on your post, If you ever DO need to defend yourself, the extra few bucks you spend on a box of factory CARRY loads may save you a buttload of cash in extra legal fees. Is it worth the risk of being WRONG ?
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Massad Ayoob?
Massad Ayoob??
Massad AYOOB!!!
(http://www.smoothharold.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/facepalm.gif)
Did anyone actually do a liitle research to figure out for themselves that all this "do NOT use handloads in your self defense firearms" mantra all stems from one source?
That one and only source being Massad Ayoob!
Did anyone ever reckon that maybe ol' Mas there is a shill for the ammunition manufacturers and he wants you to use whatever ammo he gets as schwag from whatever the manufacturer of the week happens to be?
Again, this is me:
(http://www.smoothharold.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/facepalm.gif)
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Tom Boogan wrote:
Tyler, one comment on your post, If you ever DO need to defend yourself, the extra few bucks you spend on a box of factory CARRY loads may save you a buttload of cash in extra legal fees. Is it worth the risk of being WRONG ?
Are you sure you aren't an insurance salesman?
Did you know that "IF" is the middle word in "life"?
FWIW, I am in ILL-annoyed. Ya, know, the land of no CCW. If I ever have to defend myself, it won't be with a handgun from upon my hip. But rather a shotgun or a rifle, probably as I stand somewhere inside my house.
For those rare times when I actually do tempt fate and actually cross over into St. Louis or other parts of Missouri, I have enough "intell" and "spidey sense" to keep my wits about me and to keep me out of the...err... the "depressed parts" of town.
Some where out there on the intarwebs is probably some quote by Tsun Tzu about actually winning a fight before it is even started. That's kinda my modus operandi.
Plus it helps that I am kinda shaped like a "V" and I have no neck. Huh...no wonder people don't go, "Hey, man! Gibme a dolla' man!" when I'm on the St. Louis streets.
;D
A stare right through them doesn't hurt either.
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Tyler
I would no more presume to dictate what you load than to tell you what you can carry. I've made made my opinion clear based on what I have been told and don't claim it as "gospel". IMHO, that $40 you spend on Hydrashock/Gold Dot/ Golden Sabre is money well spent and one less thing you have to worry about. Your mileage may vary.
Live Long and Prosper ;)
FQ13
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Heck....I live in Assachusetts and I carry factory JHP's, I was just trying to be a smartass with my comment because it's fun to pick on FQ....I don't reload and probably never will.
Up here, we recently had a shooting by an off duty cop (he may have been a special duty cop, whatever that means) while he was in a hospital, killed the fella trying to stab a doctor so he wasn't even part of the frakus. He was off duty, with his own firearm, in the right place at the right time. Crazy BG, ZERO! Good Guy +1...
I don't recall any discussion in the news or in print pertaining to what his CCW sidearm was loaded with. It was justified, pure and simple. If the shooting is rightous, it doesn't matter what type of bullet it was IMO...if not, then get a good lawyer, prosecutors are paid like crap anyway. Find one better, smarter and more expensive....and hope for the best. When it comes to the safety of my family, I'll go to jail if I think I'm in the right.
.02....your milage, yada, yada.....
Unfortunately It doesn't always work out very well, the name escapes me now maybe someone else can recall it, but look up the Arizona case where the guy went to jail because he used a 10mm. Their are some weird folks out their in DA's offices that will say and do just about anything to get a conviction! Good conviction rate = promotion!
Mine and FQ's point is that you are taking a big risk by carrying reloads that's all!
And Tyler, you don't see many other names out their because Massad Ayoob is one of the very FEW people who is willing to put himself out on the limb for the rest of us. If you want to attend trials as the defense's expert witness and write books about SD then do it if you think your knowledgeable enough. ::)
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I don't reload now, and when I did it was rifle ammo, so I'm carrying factory loads any way.
But I will answer you this way, First, as I pointed out, Ayoob has for many years been a nationally recognized expert witness in SD shooting cases in courts across the country, secondly he is not the only source I have heard this from, just the only one I can name off the top of my head .
Here's another reiteration of my earlier post, at Ammo engine I find "Double Tap" 45 ACP at $40/50
http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.45_ACP?sort=4&group=1
if you buy 2 boxes, at $80 and shoot at least one box for function testing in your fire arm then only use the other box for carry.
1 extra hour of lawyer fees will more than make up the expense.
Do you think any lawyer would only bill 1 hour for complications to what could otherwise be a simple case ?
Is pinching a few pennies now, worth the chance of it costing you hundreds later ?
I've been impressed by your previous posts, and I don't know your personal situation, for all I know you are shooting what you can afford, but I put this out here for your consideration.
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I just remembered it Harold Fish was the name of the guy in Arizona.
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Tyler, our posts are crossing, I'll come back to this thread later ;D
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You can read up on Ayoob here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob
I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want my own words used against the pro 2A movement by the VPC and/or the Brady gang to fight the Heller decision.
See, also, definition of "self-licking icecream cone":
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/self_licking_ice_cream_cone/
See, also, Pope declares earth to be flat, Bishop Vergilius of Salzburg persecuted in 750 for saying earth was round:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:UMUGrPUhCwoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth+pope+declared+the+earth+was+flat&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Do all you people hang onto every word that every gun writer has ever written like it was carved in stone?
If so....then...good grief!
::)
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Oh yeah....if you happen to become the pet project of some unscrupulous but ambitous DA....like in the Duke lacrosse rape case....welll.... you are gonna be screwed anyway.
Best to keep your yap shut the moment the po-po show up and start drawing chalk outlines.
Your good name will be dragged through the mud and your character will be defamed to the point that a Nazi guard at Auschwitz would have stood a better chance of an acquittal at Nuremburg.
What kinda bullets....errr...boolits you used will be the least of your worries.
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Do all you people hang onto every word that every gun writer has ever written like it was carved in stone?
If so....then...good grief!
::)
Nope. But we do listen to a lot of them, digest what they have to say, and apply them using our best judgement.
IMO, reloads are great for practice, but even the most experienced reloader has loaded a squib at one time or another. I'd rather bet the farm on factory loads in a fight. (ONLY MY OPINION!!!)
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Nope. But we do listen to a lot of them, digest what they have to say, and apply them using our best judgement.
IMO, reloads are great for practice, but even the most experienced reloader has loaded a squib at one time or another. I'd rather bet the farm on factory loads in a fight. (ONLY MY OPINION!!!)
We musta been typing at the same time, TexGun....that was going to be my point on this.
People are human and prone, sooner or later, to mistakes. Even if you've loaded 10,000 rounds without a mistake, are you willing to bet your life on 10,001? And yes, ammo companies can make a boo-boo too, but less likely than a re-loader.
Standard SD ammo ain't that expensive (Jaybet's circumstances are noted).
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Do all you people hang onto every word that every gun writer has ever written like it was carved in stone?
If so....then...good grief!
::)
First off, the VPC quoted him, So what ? It doesn't say the quoted him accurately, or in context. It does not even say that He actually said what the credited to him, (That was why the book by Belleisle (sp ? ) was taken off the market, he used real citations for made up quotes)
As to the above quote from your post, of course not, (Jim Zumbo comes to mind ) But when they back up the claims with sound reasoning and personal experience they do gain added weight.
I'm carrying factory loads, you do what you want.
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So lemme get this straight..... ;D
IFFFF I were to get in a self defense shooting...
IFFF I were to use my own reloaded ammo....
IFFF I were to get a squib....
IFFF I were to kill somebody or severley injur somebody....
IFFF I were to get arrested....
IFFF I were to go to a grand jury....
IFFF I were to go to a criminal trial....
IFFF there was a scumbag for a DA as the prosecutor....
IFFF there was some equally crooked foresnics ballistician guy working for the State....
IFFF there were 12 people on the jury dumb enough to fall for the DA's shenanigans....
IFFF the media would turn a blind eye to WASP-ey kinda guy like myself putting down a thug...
IFFF the NRA wouldn't help me...
Hold on.... let me count these up....
Oh...okay so I have got IFFF to the twelfth power. Which would look something like this:
1,000,000,000,000
What would be all the odds of that falling into place?
I will be back after while. I'm gonna go buy a lottery ticket. :P
In the bad part of town.... ;D
Without a carry piece. :o
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And by the by.... I shot right around 7, 200 rounds in matches last year alone.
I am guessing all reloads, since I am too cheap to buy the "good" factory stuff.
Not one of mine was a squib.
I have been reloading since 1994.
I have never, ever loaded a squib. Maybe I just know what the heck I'm doing.
Forty bucks for high fallutin' ammo that I will never ever use.
I would rather spend $44 and get two thousand primers and build my own dang ammo, all two thousand rounds of it, so I can practice putting boolits in somebody's eyebox when the S really does hit the F.
I hear shot placement is everything.
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I said I wasn't reloading NOW, I started in 1973, AND I was casting my own bullets, (Actually I was casting DAD'S bullets but either way, I was doing the work ) And I have never loaded a squib either , and there are others on here that could make me look like a rank beginner.
What your attitude seems to be keeping you from realizing is that surviving the confrontation is only the beginning of the process, there is also an after math to be dealt with, and judging by the attitude you have been showing in this thread, You'd go to jail .
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And by the by.... I shot right around 7, 200 rounds in matches last year alone.
I am guessing all reloads, since I am too cheap to buy the "good" factory stuff.
Not one of mine was a squib.
I have been reloading since 1994.
I have never, ever loaded a squib. Maybe I just know what the heck I'm doing.
Forty bucks for high fallutin' ammo that I will never ever use.
I would rather spend $44 and get two thousand primers and build my own dang ammo, all two thousand rounds of it, so I can practice putting boolits in somebody's eyebox when the S really does hit the F.
I hear shot placement is everything.
The purpose of not using reloaded ammo in a SD shooting isn't because of squibs, it's because a CSI lab can determine a lot of stuff from the powder residue and fired bullets after a shooting if the type of ammo is a know quantity (factory ammo). If your using reloads you don't have that. So if you say the guy you shot was only 6' from you when you shot him but theirs not much power reside on him they (prosecutors & cops) might think your lying and try to send you to prison wrongly. And your reloading data is not going to be admissible in court. Do you want to lay your freedom in the hand of the jury based on what you say verses what the cops say because of the cost of some good quality SD ammo. But if you want to take the risk it's still a FREE country (mostly anyhow)! This is a CSI issue, 30 years ago this wouldn't have mattered! But today it does!
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Guys I think I have it figured out. Tyler's right and we are all wrong ;D ;D ;D
I think Tyler wants us all to join in a pig wrestling contest ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Tom wrote:
judging by the attitude you have been showing in this thread, You'd go to jail
Well...lookey...lookey Johnny Law is here.
Hmmn... I have been through SERE. And I do know a little bit about the Reid interrogation techniques.
So, yeah, I do know how to keep my yap shut.
You don't like my attitude, eh? Don't give any, you won't get any.
Anyone else care to provide a link to an actual for real bonafide court case about a "civilian" who was using his own reloads in a self-defense shooting?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller?
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Pig wrestling contest...hardly there chiefey...
What I am trying to do is have you people open up your minds a little bit.
Ya.... know... kinda like the Box-O-Truth guys were doing when they bought that ExtremeShock ammo and actually tested it.
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I have been reloading since 1994.....Maybe I just know what the heck I'm doing.
So...you've been loading ammo for almost 16 years....how does that compare with Federal?.....Winchester?....Remington/UMC?....even S&B or Fiocci?......
....and what is the average velocity of your self-defense loads?....how about the standard deviation?....extreme spread?....ballistic coefficient?.....how about powder residue left on targets at variable distances?....or average penetration?
Factory ammo has all that on record for each lot....ready to provide for any prosecuting or defense attorney.
Maybe you know what the heck you're doing.....but who else does?....
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They could just use the remaining 17 to 19 rounds left in the gun (a Beretta 92FS with the 20 round Mec-Gars). Or the 40 extra rounds in the 2 mags on my belt.
Or they could use the remaining 6 left in the mag (for a 1911 in .45 ACP which holds 8+1). Or the remaining 16 rounds in two single stack mags also in pouches on my belt.
I do keep pretty meticulous records to include all that stuff you mentioned up above, SD's, AV's, powder charge weights, etc. All that stuff is kept in a large 3 ring binder which the po-po could just as easily seize when they come for the rest of my guns.
By the way, that reminds me. Claiming self-defense is an affirmative defense, so if I was ever involved in a self-defense shooting that went to a criminal trial, I would have to testify...err...take the stand on my behalf. At that time, I could easily have my attorney enter into evidence my 3 ring binder of reloading data, IF and that's a big IFFF the DA/prosecuting attorney wanted to pursue that avenue.
I think it is so much of "damned if you, damned if you don't."
"Oh, you used 9mm rounds. Well ladies and gentleman of the jury, clearly the defendant intended to use those slender high velocity bullets because their speed causes them to be more lethal. He chose those back in May 2009 which clearly shows malice of forethought/premeditation."
"Oh, you used those .45 ACP rounds. Well ladies and gentleman of the jury, clearly the defendant intended to use those heavier bullets because their momentum causes them to be more lethal. He chose those back in May 2009 which clearly shows malice of forethought/premeditation."
"Clearly, he chose to make the deceased victim more dead by chosing those bullets."
I am waiting for those links, by the way.
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Supposedly...yes...supposedly....one of my shooting buddies bought a box WWB .40. He got to the range, opened up the box, and NONE of the rounds had extractor grooves milled in the brass.
I wish he had taken a picture of it.
Maybe he was full of malarkey. Or maybe he wasn't.
He said he sent it back to Winchester. The customer service people, he said.... ::) came across as "Yeah, so?! What do you want us to do about it?" like it was no big deal.
Law of averages tells you that with X millions of rounds produced per year, something lacking in quality is going to slip by.
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Tom wrote:
Well...lookey...lookey Johnny Law is here.
Hmmn... I have been through SERE. And I do know a little bit about the Reid interrogation techniques.
So, yeah, I do know how to keep my yap shut.
You don't like my attitude, eh? Don't give any, you won't get any.
Anyone else care to provide a link to an actual for real bonafide court case about a "civilian" who was using his own reloads in a self-defense shooting?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Need to color code my reply to your post
First off I'm not a cop and I'm not saying they would arrest you for a valid reason, just for being a dickhead they would use some obscure thing like "Holding you pending further investigation" mean while your mouth has earned you a cavity search.
BFD Ever hear of Dr. Shephard smart guy ? He was a Spec. Forces Medic back from Vietnam, he probably had more than SERE. He got life for murder.
No I don't like your attitude, You have always posted interesting and well reasoned posts before so I was being polite to you, but in this thread you are being an arrogant asshole, You say your built like a V, maybe you should lay off the roids, they are turning you into a jerk.
Neither I or any one else is going to waste our time providing links to a closed mind .
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"Your Honor.... the defense rests!"
;)
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"Your Honor.... the defense rests!"
;)
No it doesn't rest. It just hasn't been tried yet! :-*
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If and this is a Masive IF I was able to carry for self defence
firstly all the training info I have read and seen on this subject say's Use Factory Ammo
yes people will quote Massad Ayoob when it comes to this as he has been an expert witness in quite a lot of Defensive shootings and all the training that you may have for dealing with the threat that is only part of it then there is all the legal battle that you have after it, and Massada has seen how lawers work when it comes to this, and having reloaded ammo only gives them another angle to work with.
I remember hearing on Tom Gresham's show taking about this and was talking about a court case The idea was that the attorney would ask the questions, why with all the good defensive factory ammunition available today would you make your own? Are you not satisfied with factory ammo? How bad do you want to cripple or kill someone? How much harm do you want to inflict? What kind of sadist are you?
Personally what I would do is to check out the type of ammunition that your local Police / FBI use and if you can use that exact same type or same brand / style incase there ammo is not available for public sale, by all means use re-loads for practice / competition however always run a couple of hundred rounds of the chosen factory self defence ammo to make sure that your gun functions with it and to know how your gun shoots with it
ammo is cheap... life is expensive...
Just think about how expensive lawyers are! Carrying handloads can be a real problem for defence.
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Phil makes a nice list of the "conventional wisdom" points of concealed carry and ammo, but again, one size does not fit all. In NJ you can carry (assuming you are one of the elite they will allow CCW) the same ammo as the police, but use it against a criminal and you become a malicious bastard. I have expressed a rationale for using reloads for home defense, and I should point out that all of that reasoning is based on HOME defense, not SELF defense, a point I didn't make clear in my earlier post.
I have legally carried in "other jurisdictions" and my philosophy there is to carry standard SD ammo because it is "standard", and for all of the ballistics reasoning stated in this thread.
Everyone has to assess their situation and do what they believe is appropriate and assess the consequences of that. The way someone interprets their own situation and the way they deal with that is their own business. Quoting the "authorities" who make money on their opinions is all well and good, and generally it's good info, but it may not apply to everyone. The fact that any of us are spending so much grey matter assessing all of this is a good sign and a credit to the shooting community in general.
By the way, some folks can get riled up, but thanks to Tyler for inciting a lively conversation. Some may take issue with his attitude, which I think he should enjoy while he can....life has a way of moderating your attitude for you. The spirit of DownRange is to exchange, argue, joke around, and agree or disagree, but we do it all with respect for each other and enjoyment...Tyler is enjoying working the needle...I'm enjoying reading the responses, and we all should be enjoying such a fun review of an old subject.
The bottom line is, we take a lot of responsibility in excercising our constitutional rights, and using deadly force is a huge, life changing event. The chances are slim, but if you have to shoot it's going to be a big problem any way it goes down, and your thoughtful, responsible approach to every aspect of your gun ownership and use will matter on BOTH sides of the argument.
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^^^ Well, that certainly is a well written and cogent response, without all the gnashing of teeth. I cannot argue with that.
Good job, JayBets!
As far as my attitude goes...oh... I dunno. I wasn't exactly downright nasty. And I wasn't exactly Mr. HighBrow either.
What was I trying to do?
Hopefully, I was trying to get people to think critically and to have a questioning attitude.
I know it is not easy to shift people's attitudes...err... paradigms...err...dogma.
There is always resistance to change.
I expected there to be some resistance. And I wasn't let down.
Trust me when I tell you this...this topic has been hashed out already by me and few other boolit casters and reloaders on another forum.
The links I was asking for, well, I already knew what they would be if anyone ever got around to posting them.
All roads lead to Rome...err...Ayoob. ;)
Was I trolling when I posted that I would stick to my cast boolits and reloads?
Yeah, you bet I was trolling. I knew somebody here would take the bait.
Again, I wasn't disappointed. Thanks.
For me....and this is clearly my opinion...the expenses of buying the high falluting self defense ammo if I could actually find it, in my opinion clearly outweighs the perceived benefits of having to use it in the very highly unlikely event that the S should hit the F. (Why heck, I might as well wear a lightening rod on my hat too, it is equally unlikey, in my opinion)
In one very high profile "self-defense shooting", the prosecuting attorney wanted to use a hand to hand combat techniques DVD that the defendant had bought six months to a year prior to the shooting to prove premeditation/malice of forethought. Where does it end? I guess it doesn't ever end as long as there are unscrupulus attorneys working in the DA's office. Nobody could be considered to be without sin under that kind of scrutiny.
You guys can do what you please. It is your money.
Likewise, I will do the same because...well...it's my money.
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I have 'hot' JHP reloads in my Redhawk .45 and use those same rounds in my PUMA. Here in FL if it was a 'good' shoot they don't look at ammo and you are protected from civil suits so it is a non-issue as far as I am concerned.
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If you are looking at overzealous DA's who might have an ax to grind regarding reloads, they are going to have a problem no matter what ammo you used.
You think using ammo that the local police or FBI uses will help your case, probably not. The same arguement will be used both ways.
You went out and intentionally found ammo that the police use. Are you some kind of vigilante or something? Do you think you are a cop? Wasn't regular ammo good enough that you had to seek out the same ammo as police?
I also don't think ammo companies keep results of powder residue found at 6ft, because well, they just don't care. As for police already having these results on file. That's fine, but they still have to do testing on recovered ammo to try to make any case.
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I have 'hot' JHP reloads in my Redhawk .45 and use those same rounds in my PUMA. Here in FL if it was a 'good' shoot they don't look at ammo and you are protected from civil suits so it is a non-issue as far as I am concerned.
Unfortunately not all of us have the castle doctrine to fall back on so Civil suites are still a real problem. And I'm not rich enough to blow 100K on civil defense team because some mother is up set and want's to blame ME for the child becoming a criminal! Thsi Sunday on Armed American Radio they were discusing the shooting in NY. the one where the cop shot and killed the guy with a MAC 10 in time sq. The mother of that outstanding citizen is complaning that the cops shouldn't have killed her boy. They should have shot him in the leg so they could take him alive! It's unreal how some people deal with their grief and who the blame for it with or without bases for it!
If you are looking at overzealous DA's who might have an ax to grind regarding reloads, they are going to have a problem no matter what ammo you used.
You think using ammo that the local police or FBI uses will help your case, probably not. The same arguement will be used both ways.
You went out and intentionally found ammo that the police use. Are you some kind of vigilante or something? Do you think you are a cop? Wasn't regular ammo good enough that you had to seek out the same ammo as police?
I also don't think ammo companies keep results of powder residue found at 6ft, because well, they just don't care. As for police already having these results on file. That's fine, but they still have to do testing on recovered ammo to try to make any case.
Ammo companies keep a little bit of ammo from each lot of ammo they make for later testing. And the goverment can afford to do all the testing they want to. Tyler's right about one thing he'll do what he want's to and the rest of us will do what we do. He can bait and switch and be an A$$ all he want's but I'll not be to likely to take anything he says with any seriousness.
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Really...this ....ahem...discussion has come down to name calling. Really?
See, I told you all there is/was resistance to change. Enough to spiral this thread to name calling. Congratulations. You just now kinda proved my point.
Guns-R-Us wrote:
Unfortunately not all of us have the castle doctrine to fall back on...
Well, why not?
Maybe you should have used the same energy and robustness that you used to attack me into trying to get Castle Doctrine passed in your state, instead.
After all..."They" are the "enemy". Not me.
All us gunpeople should be on the same side....right??? ???
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If I ever have to shoot someone in self defense the ammo I use is probably the LEAST of my worries if the DA is an asswipe (the only party deserving of name calling in this discussion, in my opinion).
An ambitious DA could find so many things to use to paint me as whatever....how many guns do you own? What's this "Down Range" thing you post on...(show the jury some of the more strident posts)...what's this XX sporting club you belong to? Did you know that these members are known for this or that? Why did you write that nasty email to your state senator? Would you please describe the television shows you most often watch? Do you play video games? I submit a list of video games found at the residence.... clearly indicates____. On and on.
So I guess...if someone wants to kill you and you kill them first, that's victory. Whatever follows afterward is just news footage.
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If I ever have to shoot someone in self defense the ammo I use is probably the LEAST of my worries if the DA is an asswipe (the only party deserving of name calling in this discussion, in my opinion).
An ambitious DA could find so many things to use to paint me as whatever....how many guns do you own? What's this "Down Range" thing you post on...(show the jury some of the more strident posts)...what's this XX sporting club you belong to? Did you know that these members are known for this or that? Why did you write that nasty email to your state senator? Would you please describe the television shows you most often watch? Do you play video games? I submit a list of video games found at the residence.... clearly indicates____. On and on.
So I guess...if someone wants to kill you and you kill them first, that's victory. Whatever follows afterward is just news footage.
We have a winner.
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Are we done now? Cuz, I was gonna go home and load my .357 with .38 spcl so as not to offend the prick I have to shoot with the lower velocity ammo!
Thank goodness it's a Ruger, that way when he don't die from the .38's, I can beat him to death with that little tank of a revolver!
;D
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/?tag=content;col1
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Are we done now? Cuz, I was gonna go home and load my .357 with .38 spcl so as not to offend the prick I have to shoot with the lower velocity ammo!
Thank goodness it's a Ruger, that way when he don't die from the .38's, I can beat him to death with that little tank of a revolver!
;D
Just dont use a Taurus Judge..... They will make the case that you've got a Wild West mentality and you are looking to be "Judge, Jury, and Executioner".
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/?tag=content;col1
Article by Massad Daboob.
That isn't exactly a defensive shooting and there was a lot of misinformation on the "defendnts" part.
Stating he used reloads might have just kept his a$$ out of jail for murder.
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^^^ Thanks for pointing that out. If somebody didn't, I sure as heck was going to.
Again, all roads lead to or through Ayoob.
Slight thread drift ahead....red herring getting thrown out there.... I really don't know what happened in that case. And I really don't care, because it wasn't a self-defense shooting against some ne'er-do-well...BUT...BUTTTT!!! It wasn't the first time I have heard a woman exclaim that she would kill herself if she couldn't have kids. It probably won't be the last. Just sayin'....
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To get to PART of the argument, I went to the horse directly and sent Mr. Ayoob an email and asked about specific cases.
I received the following in an email from Mas Ayoob:
New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, problems with gunshot residue testing involving handloads.
NH v. James Kennedy, allegation that use of handloads was indication of malice.
best,
Mas
Also, here is the bulk of the information and some other cases he linked me to where he had posted elsewhere:
As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.
As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.
NH v. Kennedy
James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.
The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.
This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.
Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.
This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.
NJ V. Bias
This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.
Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.
Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.
We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.
According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.
Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.
For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.
It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.
It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”
He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”
Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”
She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”
The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823
Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.
142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)
Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)
TN v. Barnes
The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.
The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:
Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103
Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems
A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.
I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.
A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”
This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.
Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140
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Thanks Peg,
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::)
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Thanks Peg for looking that up. That was a good post. I know it was wasted on Tyler but I think it will help sway some of the folks just visiting this tread that they may want to consider sticking with factory ammo for S.D. carry and save the reloads for the range. Consiquintly I watched a video of Clint Smith from thunder ranch on the http://www.guntalk.tv/site.php website in the free section discussing factory vs. reloads for S.D. use. His basic message was that most folks should stick to Factory loads though if you insist that your reloads are better than what the factory is offering have at it. ::)
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I put the ::) smiley in there because out of those 3 or 4 cases that were cited, at best only one of them was a for real bona fide self-defense shooting.
The others were not in self-defense by a plain ol' "simple civilian".
And then, if I am not mistaken, the closest one to a self-defense shooting it was admitted that the investigators botched up the evidence collection. Well, duh!!
You might just be screwed if you did use that high fallutin jacketed hollow point stuff anyway, because the Barney Fife's didn't follow the evidence procedures/protocols.
Trust me....as far as threads go... I have been down this road already, just about two months ago, on the cast boolits forum, and I know all the links that have already been presented.
And once again, all the links and cases came from Masaad Ayoob.
What might be interesting to ask him in an email is "How many self-defense shootings were there that involved reloads did the shooter get off scott-free with no mention made of his ammo?"
Eh??
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Guns-R-Us wrote:
He can bait and switch and be an A$$ all he want's but I'll not be to likely to take anything he says with any seriousness.
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Guys, I think this thread boils down to a Liability concern. How much Liability are you willing to incur?
In a civil suit the judge or jury is going ask themselves what would a Reasonable Person do? Would a Reasonable person use factory loaded ammo or would a Reasonable person load their own ammo?
Again how much LIABILITY are YOU willing to incur?
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In a civil suit the judge or jury is going ask themselves what would a Reasonable Person do?
An oxymoron if I ever heard one. REASONABLE people in "Their" minds do not carry guns, never mind loaded with real bullets of any kind.
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To get to PART of the argument, I went to the horse directly and sent Mr. Ayoob an email and asked about specific cases.
I received the following in an email from Mas Ayoob:
Thanks, Peg...and please extend my thanks to Mr. Ayoob for his response...I'm satisfied...
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Unless Tyler finds some other Nationally recognized specialist in shooting related gun law I'm satisfied, I don't see what the self defense aspect has to do with it when the issue is using handloads in a shooting, so those examples work for me.
Funny thing is is I knew James Kennedy, I was living in Hampton when I enlisted in the Marines. I didn't know him well but I knew who he was.
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Thanks Peg. You are a more patient man than I. I didn't do the rearch because I am comfortable with my factory loads decision and just wanted to let others know why I decided that way. You went the extra mile. +10
FQ13
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Thanks Peg. You are a more patient man than I. I didn't do the rearch because I am comfortable with my factory loads decision and just wanted to let others know why I decided that way. You went the extra mile. +10
FQ13
Ditto...
Thanks Peg.
A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”
This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.
"Net Ninja's" that's just funny right there...
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And once again, all the links and cases came from Masaad Ayoob.
Tyler, I don't get what your issues are with Massad Ayoob?? He's a expert in the field of S.D. and has a lot of credentials to back up what he says. His name does come up a lot because it's a small field. Not to many other folks out their have put forth the kind of effort he has. I think I could understand your decent with him, if what he was saying didn't have some logical since to it, but it does make good logical since to me. I guess I can't figure why you seem to dislike someone who has done so much for the firearms community? ??? ???
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Okay. let me put it in a context...let's say you did a google search for say "global warming".
You went to one link, then another link and then another and all those links went back and cited Al Gore, what would you think then?
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Not to mention that of those 3 or 4 cases mentioned or cited by Ayoob, only one was even close to a self-defense shooting.
By the attitude or tone of this widespread "don't use reloads for self-defense" myth, you would think that you couldn't swing a dead cat in any court house in the land and NOT hit a "defendant" who was implicated because he used his reloads in some self-defense shooting.
There are some other internet myths I would like to disspell too:
1. you can't reload steel cased ammo
2. the smoke from cast lead boolits is caused by the lube
3. beretta slides will break in two and smack you in the mouth
4. you can't shoot lead boolits out of Glocks
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Not to mention that of those 3 or 4 cases mentioned or cited by Ayoob, only one was even close to a self-defense shooting.
By the attitude or tone of this widespread "don't use reloads for self-defense" myth, you would think that you couldn't swing a dead cat in any court house in the land and NOT hit a "defendant" who was implicated because he used his reloads in some self-defense shooting.
There are some other internet myths I would like to disspell too:
1. you can't reload steel cased ammo
2. the smoke from cast lead boolits is caused by the lube
3. beretta slides will break in two and smack you in the mouth
4. you can't shoot lead boolits out of Glocks
Tyler
I don't know whether you're trying to stir the pot (in which case good on you because its boring when we agree) or whether you actually believe this stuff. I will only address point 4. I have owned three Glocks and put multiple thousands of rounds through them over the years with failures measured at less than a dozen rounds. The manual says don't shoot lead and don't shoot reloads. I don't shoot lead and I don't shoot reloads and guess what? My failure rate is, over the 16 years I have owned Glocks, well less than one in 2,000 ronds, considering that is about my yearly average with one of my hand guns. You may use your lead boolits to your hearts content and I will not say you nay. However, before you stir the pot on technical stff, if you are going against the manual, you might want to provide some reason (empirical or theoretical) to support you. Its not my job to prove the manual is right (though I do offer anecdotal evidence), its yours to prove it wrong. I won't even get into a discussion of the Glock barrel rifling and how it effects lead as I'm sure Eric or someone else will make the theoretical case for me. All I state here is that I have sent an a#$load of factory jacketed ammo down range with near zero problems. Draw your own conclusions.
FQ13
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FW wrote:
I don't know whether you're trying to stir the pot
Oh... I wouldn't call it so much stirring the pot. I would call it seeking the truth or disspelling internet rumors/myths.
As far as the lead bullets in Glock things go, we have one local shooter at the steel matches who shoots a Glock with a factory barrel and he shoots lead bullets. During the summer months when the weather is nice, we will shoot 8 stages. About halfway through the match, he will run a boresnake through the gun a few times. Then he will rejoin the squad and get back to shooting his lead bullets.
So...it is anectdotal.
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Okay. let me put it in a context...let's say you did a google search for say "global warming".
You went to one link, then another link and then another and all those links went back and cited Al Gore, what would you think then?
I think you can find plenty of info proving Al Gore to be an idiot. I don't think you'll find much calling Massad Ayoob anything of the sort!
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I think you can find plenty of info proving Al Gore to be an idiot. I don't think you'll find much calling Massad Ayoob anything of the sort!
ROFL! +10 Guns
FQ13
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I think you can find plenty of info proving Al Gore to be an idiot. I don't think you'll find much calling Massad Ayoob anything of the sort!
Didn't take long. ;D
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm
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Here, I think, is the bottom line. Tyler, shoot whatever you want, for whatever you want. As for me, I'll find other ways and places to cut expenses that does NOT involve the defense of me and mine. Hopefully I'll never use it, much like I'll hopefully never use my car or homeowner's insurance. Doesn't mean I don't buy any.
I'm more comfortable with factory loads for SD. And if it comes down to accepting the expertise of Mas Ayoob vs that of Tyler Durdan, I think I'll stick with Mas, thank you very much. YMMV
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You didn't click on the link 1911 Junkie posted, did you?
;D
As far as the car insurance thing goes, well, that is a red herring or specious argument because by law you have to have insurance to drive legally.
As far as homeowner's insurance goes, unless you paid cold hard cash on the barrel head, then yeah, the bank or the mortgage company is going to force you to have some sort of insurance.
Another specious argument.
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You didn't click on the link 1911 Junkie posted, did you?
;D
As far as the car insurance thing goes, well, that is a red herring or specious argument because by law you have to have insurance to drive legally.
As far as homeowner's insurance goes, unless you paid cold hard cash on the barrel head, then yeah, the bank or the mortgage company is going to force you to have some sort of insurance.
Another specious argument.
Two words. Renters insurance. No one ever made me buy it, but I still write the check and I'm glad I do. My possesions are secure from fire flood and theft. Its just prudence to take minimal steps to avoid major disaster. It is after all, the reason we carry guns. ::)
FQ13
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Have you had to file a claim yet on your renters insurance?
Have you had to draw your CCW piece?
Did you actually fire a shot somebody?
As to the real reasons people actually CCW...well...some people may believe it is insurance against the boogey-man is just one reason.
There may be other reasons.
YMMV.
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Have you had to file a claim yet on your renters insurance?
Have you had to draw your CCW piece?
Did you actually fire a shot somebody?
As to the real reasons people actually CCW...well...some people may believe it is insurance against the boogey-man is just one reason.
There may be other reasons.
YMMV.
Yes to both questions. I had two bikes stolen and a tree fall on my canoe while it was strapped to my truck (heroicically saving my cap) while I lived in Austin. (The latter was actually kind of funny as it took over a week of arguing over whether the damage should be settled by my renters, auto or watercraft policies, and this was the same company that handled all three. ::)) . Given that USAA is good company, it cost three one hundred dollar deductibles on two $500 bikes and a $1500 kevlar canoe. The policy was money well spent. As to the CCW, yeah, I've felt threatened enough to flash the gun once. So I do take this seriously.
FQ13
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Tyler, have a nice life with your reloads, I prefer factory ammo. Different strokes for different folks.
Sorry, but I refuse to give you an argument. I'm too damned tired right now.