might want to check this out about ammo

[Tyler Durden]

Supposedly...yes...supposedly....one of my shooting buddies bought a box WWB .40.  He got to the range, opened up the box, and NONE of the rounds had extractor grooves milled in the brass.

I wish he had taken a picture of it. 

Maybe he was full of malarkey.  Or maybe he wasn't.

He said he sent it back to Winchester.  The customer service people, he said.... came across as "Yeah, so?!  What do you want us to do about it?" like it was no big deal.

Law of averages tells you that with X millions of rounds produced per year, something lacking in quality is going to slip by.

[tombogan03884]

Tom wrote:

Well...lookey...lookey Johnny Law is here.

Hmmn... I have been through SERE.  And I do know a little bit about the Reid interrogation techniques.

So, yeah, I do know how to keep my yap shut.

You don't like my attitude, eh?  Don't give any, you won't get any.

Anyone else care to provide a link to an actual for real bonafide court case about  a "civilian" who was using his own reloads in a self-defense shooting?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Need to color code my reply to your post
First off I'm not a cop and I'm not saying they would arrest you for a valid reason, just for being a dickhead they would use some obscure thing like "Holding you pending further investigation" mean while your mouth has earned you a cavity search.

BFD Ever hear of Dr. Shephard  smart guy ?  He was a Spec. Forces Medic back from Vietnam, he probably had more than SERE. He got life for murder.

No I don't like your attitude, You have always posted interesting and well reasoned posts before so I was being polite to you, but in this thread you are being an arrogant asshole, You say your built like a V, maybe you should lay off the roids, they are turning you into a jerk.

Neither I or any one else is going to waste our time providing links to a closed mind .

[Tyler Durden]

"Your Honor.... the defense rests!"

 

[GUNS-R-US]

"Your Honor.... the defense rests!"

 

No it doesn't rest. It just hasn't been tried yet! 

[philw]

If   and this is a Masive IF   I was able to carry for self defence



firstly  all the training info  I have read and seen  on this subject  say's  Use Factory Ammo   


yes   people will quote  Massad Ayoob when it comes to this  as he has been an expert witness in quite a lot of Defensive shootings   and all the training  that you may have   for dealing with the threat  that is only part of it   then there is all the legal battle that you have after it,   and Massada  has seen how lawers work when it comes to this,   and having reloaded  ammo  only gives them another angle to work with.   

I remember  hearing on Tom Gresham's show   taking about this  and  was talking about a court case  The idea was that the attorney would ask the questions, why with all the good defensive factory ammunition available today would you make your own? Are you not satisfied with factory ammo? How bad do you want to cripple or kill someone? How much harm do you want to inflict? What kind of sadist are you?

Personally  what I would do  is to check out the type of ammunition that your local Police / FBI  use and if you can use that exact same type or same brand / style incase there ammo is not available for public sale,   by all means  use re-loads for practice  / competition however  always run a couple of hundred rounds of the chosen factory self defence ammo to make sure that your gun functions with it and to know how your gun shoots with it

ammo is cheap... life is expensive...

Just think about how expensive lawyers are! Carrying handloads can be a real problem for defence.

[Sponsor]

[jaybet]

Phil makes a nice list of the "conventional wisdom" points of concealed carry and ammo, but again, one size does not fit all. In NJ you can carry (assuming you are one of the elite they will allow CCW) the same ammo as the police, but use it against a criminal and you become a malicious bastard. I have expressed a rationale for using reloads for home defense, and I should point out that all of that reasoning is based on HOME defense, not SELF defense, a point I didn't make clear in my earlier post.
I have legally carried in "other jurisdictions" and my philosophy there is to carry standard SD ammo because it is "standard", and for all of the ballistics reasoning stated in this thread.
Everyone has to assess their situation and do what they believe is appropriate and assess the consequences of that. The way someone interprets their own situation and the way they deal with that is their own business. Quoting the "authorities" who make money on their opinions is all well and good, and generally it's good info, but it may not apply to everyone. The fact that any of us are spending so much grey matter assessing all of this is a good sign and a credit to the shooting community in general.

By the way, some folks can get riled up, but thanks to Tyler for inciting a lively conversation. Some may take issue with his attitude, which I think he should enjoy while he can....life has a way of moderating your attitude for you. The spirit of DownRange is to exchange, argue, joke around, and agree or disagree, but we do it all with respect for each other and enjoyment...Tyler is enjoying working the needle...I'm enjoying reading the responses, and we all should be enjoying such a fun review of an old subject.

The bottom line is, we take a lot of responsibility in excercising our constitutional rights, and using deadly force is a huge, life changing event. The chances are slim, but if you have to shoot it's going to be a big problem any way it goes down, and your thoughtful, responsible approach to every aspect of your gun ownership and use will matter on BOTH sides of the argument.

[Tyler Durden]

^^^  Well, that certainly is a well written and cogent response, without all the gnashing of teeth.  I cannot argue with that.

Good job, JayBets!

As far as my attitude goes...oh... I dunno.  I wasn't exactly downright nasty.  And I wasn't exactly Mr. HighBrow either.

What was I trying to do?

Hopefully, I was trying to get people to think critically and to have a questioning attitude.

I know it is not easy to shift people's attitudes...err... paradigms...err...dogma.

There is always resistance to change.

I expected there to be some resistance.  And I wasn't let down.

Trust me when I tell you this...this topic has been hashed out already by me and few other boolit casters and reloaders on another forum.

The links I was asking for, well, I already knew what they would be if anyone ever got around to posting them.

All roads lead to Rome...err...Ayoob.   

Was I trolling when I posted that I would stick to my cast boolits and reloads?

Yeah, you bet I was trolling.  I knew somebody here would take the bait. 

Again, I wasn't disappointed.  Thanks.

For me....and this is clearly my opinion...the expenses of buying the high falluting self defense ammo if I could actually find it, in my opinion clearly outweighs the perceived benefits of having to use it in the very highly unlikely event that the S should hit the F. (Why heck, I might as well wear a lightening rod on my hat too, it is equally unlikey, in my opinion)

In one very high profile "self-defense shooting", the prosecuting attorney wanted to use a hand to hand combat techniques DVD that the defendant had bought six months to a year prior to the shooting to prove premeditation/malice of forethought.  Where does it end?  I guess it doesn't ever end as long as there are unscrupulus attorneys working in the DA's office.  Nobody could be considered to be without sin under that kind of scrutiny.

You guys can do what you please.  It is your money.

Likewise, I will do the same because...well...it's my money. 

[Hazcat]

I have 'hot' JHP reloads in my Redhawk .45 and use those same rounds in my PUMA.  Here in FL if it was a 'good' shoot they don't look at ammo and you are protected from civil suits so it is a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

[1911 Junkie]

If you are looking at overzealous DA's who might have an ax to grind regarding reloads, they are going to have a problem no matter what ammo you used.

You think using ammo that the local police or FBI uses will help your case, probably not. The same arguement will be used both ways.

You went out and intentionally found ammo that the police use. Are you some kind of vigilante or something? Do you think you are a cop? Wasn't regular ammo good enough that you had to seek out the same ammo as police?

I also don't think ammo companies keep results of powder residue found at 6ft, because well, they just don't care. As for police already having these results on file. That's fine, but they still have to do testing on recovered ammo to try to make any case.

[GUNS-R-US]

I have 'hot' JHP reloads in my Redhawk .45 and use those same rounds in my PUMA.  Here in FL if it was a 'good' shoot they don't look at ammo and you are protected from civil suits so it is a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

Unfortunately not all of us have the castle doctrine to fall back on so Civil suites are still a real problem. And I'm not rich enough to blow 100K on civil defense team because some mother is up set and want's to blame ME for the child becoming a criminal! Thsi Sunday on Armed American Radio they were discusing the shooting in NY. the one where the cop shot and killed the guy with a MAC 10 in time sq. The mother of that outstanding citizen is complaning that the cops shouldn't have killed her boy. They should have shot him in the leg so they could take him alive! It's unreal how some people deal with their grief and who the blame for it with or without bases for it!

If you are looking at overzealous DA's who might have an ax to grind regarding reloads, they are going to have a problem no matter what ammo you used.

You think using ammo that the local police or FBI uses will help your case, probably not. The same arguement will be used both ways.

You went out and intentionally found ammo that the police use. Are you some kind of vigilante or something? Do you think you are a cop? Wasn't regular ammo good enough that you had to seek out the same ammo as police?

I also don't think ammo companies keep results of powder residue found at 6ft, because well, they just don't care. As for police already having these results on file. That's fine, but they still have to do testing on recovered ammo to try to make any case.

Ammo companies keep a little bit of ammo from each lot of ammo they make for later testing. And the goverment can afford to do all the testing they want to. Tyler's right about one thing he'll do what he want's to and the rest of us will do what we do. He can bait and switch and be an A$$ all he want's but I'll not be to likely to take anything he says with any seriousness.