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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Tyler Durden on July 20, 2012, 04:40:15 AM

Title: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 20, 2012, 04:40:15 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-20/shooting-movie-theater-denver/56351098/1
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 20, 2012, 08:03:01 AM
It's all over the news.  How does this work for situational awareness?  What's the area like crime wise?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 20, 2012, 08:12:16 AM
We were posting at the same time.  ;D

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=20126.msg253946;topicseen#msg253946
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 08:56:16 AM
Quote
President Obama said he was saddened by the "horrific and tragic shooting," pledging that his administration was "committed to bringing whoever was responsible to justice, ensuring the safety of our people, and caring for those who have been wounded."

I have no problem and believe the first is appropriate.  However, this is a local crime, so why is the President "pledging that his administration ..."?  Oh never mine, I know that without HIM nothing is possible.

Edit - addition

Now I hear that the President will be holding a news conference to address this event. 

I go back to my previous statement.  It is good that the President is aware of this, and that he cares.  However, this is a local issue at this point, and does not demand his attention or distraction from his national affairs.

Our system of government is set up at local levels:  Towns, cities or townships; counties; states; and finally federal.  Each jurisdiction handles its issues and calls for aid from those above as needed.  What escalates this to the level of Presidential address at this early stage?  What has happened to the American public that we look to and demand federal intervention in every event?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Timothy on July 20, 2012, 09:17:41 AM
Funny how concerned he is during this election year!  Too bad he's ignored the Ft. Hood shooting of 2009!  He was too busy screwing us with the ACA and TARP and GM, Chrysler et al...

BTW, isn't Major Hasan still an Army Officer?  Why the f..k is he allowed to grow a beard while in holding pending trial?  Are we catering to his Muslim faith?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: RTFM on July 20, 2012, 09:18:57 AM
Hi Preacher... we're the choir.

(I too had the very same though... why is b-HO getting involved....oh wait... guns......guns are bad... maybe it did not work in Me-He-Cow......so let's take it domestic...)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 20, 2012, 09:49:16 AM
I hear that Obama is or was slated to sign that UN small arms treaty in 3 days.

The timing is.... Interesting...
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 09:51:26 AM
Quote
My daughters go to movies ... What if Lily and Sasha had been ...

Sounds a lot like "If I had a son ..."  Worded another way  - I'm one of you.  His spin doctors know how to pull the puppet strings!

Let me add what a wonderful event this was for the President:  A day off from the grueling campaign trail.  He can stand up, offer to take over for the local authorities, put his feet up and relax.  He even managed to take a jab at Romney in his sympathy speech.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: mkm on July 20, 2012, 10:01:20 AM
Much like the FL mob, this brings up a good opportunity to discuss stretegy in a scenario like this.

You're in a dark, packed theater when shots are fired.  There's screaming and chaos with people everywhere.  What do you do?



This is sad and makes me feel better about carrying the last few times I went to the movies.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 20, 2012, 10:10:11 AM
Sounds a lot like "If I had a son ..."  Worded another way  - I'm one of you.  His spin doctors know how to pull the puppet strings!

Let me add what a wonderful event this was for the President:  A day off from the grueling campaign trail.  He can stand up, offer to take over for the local authorities, put his feet up and relax.  He even managed to take a jab at Romney in his sympathy speech.

I shouted bullshit at the TV when he said.  They would a SS detail with them.

Duh?!
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 10:24:52 AM
Floor!!!

Next step is to activate the plan you developed when you entered the facility:  Exit or cover options.  Now isn't the time to worry about them.  You thought about it, and now you do what options are left based on where the shooter is.  According to current accounts he was in the screen area, so the doors you entered through may be the best route. 

By the way, if you are able to flee through an exit the firearm should be holstered but accessible and light in hand.  If you are trapped inside firearm and light in hand and ready if needed.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 20, 2012, 10:38:15 AM
Much like the FL mob, this brings up a good opportunity to discuss stretegy in a scenario like this.

You're in a dark, packed theater when shots are fired.  There's screaming and chaos with people everywhere.  What do you do?



This is sad and makes me feel better about carrying the last few times I went to the movies.

Floor!!!

Next step is to activate the plan you developed when you entered the facility:  Exit or cover options.  Now isn't the time to worry about them.  You thought about it, and now you do what options are left based on where the shooter is.  According to current accounts he was in the screen area, so the doors you entered through may be the best route. 

By the way, if you are able to flee through an exit the firearm should be holstered but accessible and light in hand.  If you are trapped inside firearm and light in hand and ready if needed.

Hit the floor and stay there, under the seats if possible, the exits will be jammed and provide choke points for a shooter to concentrate on. If he approaches you and targets you, then attack him, throw your soda in his face, hit, kick, bite, talk about his mother, what ever it takes to protect you and yours.
This is a much different situation than the "flash mob". they were looters, focused on stealing stuff from the store and vandalism, getting out of the area is the best tactic, if you are seen moving away you are obviously not interfering with their actions, therefore you are of minimal interest to the mob.
A mass shooter has a different agenda, he is looking to wrack up numbers, his attention will be focused on "target rich" areas, such as exits, and movement that draws the eye will likely draw fire that could have otherwise been avoided.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: lhprop1 on July 20, 2012, 10:45:06 AM
Hit the floor and stay there, under the seats if possible, the exits will be jammed and provide choke points for a shooter to concentrate on. If he approaches you and targets you, then attack him, throw your soda in his face, hit, kick, bite, talk about his mother, what ever it takes to protect you and yours.

A mass shooter has a different agenda, he is looking to wrack up numbers, his attention will be focused on "target rich" areas, such as exits, and movement that draws the eye will likely draw fire that could have otherwise been avoided.

Not only that, but it was dark, he threw tear gas so you'll likely not be seeing properly, and he was wearing kevlar.  Too many bystanders running around, exits jammed, limited target size, and imparied senses.  Also, any return fire is guaranteed to make you a priority target.  

That's a worst case scenario any way you slice it.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: mkm on July 20, 2012, 11:16:56 AM
Much like the FL mob, this brings up a good opportunity to discuss stretegy in a scenario like this.

Just to clarify in case their was any question, I realize they are two completely different scenarios.  However, both provide us with a chance to plan and discuss responses to them.

Right now, it seems the theme is to get on the ground and stay out of sight as much as possible and be ready with flashlight and possibly gun.  I'm in agreement with this but pose another question.

If you're lying on the ground in a dark, packed theater with people in chaos, how do you avoid being trampled?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 20, 2012, 11:57:39 AM
Good point.  How do you avoid getting trampled?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 20, 2012, 12:46:04 PM
Good point.  How do you avoid getting trampled?

That was one of the things I had in mind when I suggested getting under the seats if possible.
In the recent Ontario shooting several of the injured had not been touched by bullets but were in fact injured by the crowds action .

Just to clarify in case their was any question, I realize they are two completely different scenarios.  However, both provide us with a chance to plan and discuss responses to them.

Right now, it seems the theme is to get on the ground and stay out of sight as much as possible and be ready with flashlight and possibly gun.  I'm in agreement with this but pose another question.

If you're lying on the ground in a dark, packed theater with people in chaos, how do you avoid being trampled?

I understood that but found it useful to illustrate the differences in my post.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 20, 2012, 12:49:05 PM
Makes sense to me.   :)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 12:52:10 PM
Good point.  How do you avoid getting trampled?

If you drop to the floor at your seat there are minimal people to contend with.  The only way to avoid getting trampled in a herd is to go with the flow, so you just do the best you can when you choose to not be a sheep.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 20, 2012, 01:05:47 PM
If you drop to the floor at your seat there are minimal people to contend with.  The only way to avoid getting trampled in a herd is to go with the flow, so you just do the best you can when you choose to not be a sheep.

And do whatever you have to to stay on your feet, because if you go down while in the herd you are f*cked , no one will help you up, they will instead stand on you to get one inch closer to the exit.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 20, 2012, 01:19:43 PM
I shouted bullshit at the TV when he said.  They would a SS detail with them.

Duh?!

Yeah..and they would have been armed and the tragedy would have been cut short.

SS can't be everywhere but honest citizens almost can. 

Support your local Concealed Carry Citizen
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 01:49:47 PM
And do whatever you have to to stay on your feet, because if you go down while in the herd you are f*cked , no one will help you up, they will instead stand on you to get one inch closer to the exit.


That is why in a theater you stay in your seat row and don't go for an exit until you are sure you can make it.

On the floor in a seat row gives you concealment, some level of cover depending on the seat type and bodies between you and the shooter, and if the shooter gets to your row while walking the aisle you have him in your sights.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 20, 2012, 02:15:09 PM
Philadelphia Mayor Nutter is on right now calling for a renewal of the assault weapon bill ... I'm all for it - As soon as I see a gun running down the street assaulting people I will call for control!

CNN is all over this and pushing it right now.

Oh by the way "Children were shot last night, and we need to protect them."  It is the NRA and their "strangle hold on the House of Representatives."  Hey dude!!!  I am the NRA, I am a humanbeing, and you can feel free to come over and TRY to take them from me!!!
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: cmrothenb on July 20, 2012, 03:46:33 PM
Philadelphia Mayor Nutter is on right now calling for a renewal of the assault weapon bill ...

As soon as I heard Goonberg running his mouth taking advantage of this murder, I figured the best way I could tell him what I think about him and his Jihad against the 2nd was to go to the NRA-ILA site and donate.    Didn't have deep pockets today, but if a million people go give $10-$50 we can show l Mr Nannystate what we think of his Jihad against the 2nd amendment.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 20, 2012, 04:15:06 PM
It probably is nothing, but I was watching NBC's Today show this morning.  The text outline of events had "theater" spelled "theatre" which is how the British spell it.

Just something that got my attention...
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 21, 2012, 08:34:35 AM
Just had a thought this morning.

How did he get into the theater carrying all that without raising an eyebrow?

I know you can conceal a handgun pretty easily, but a shotgun, carbine, gas mask, and all the ammo to go with it?  (an 870 doesn't take mags ya know)  I'd think even a trenchcoat would have some serious "bumps" in it with all that.

Just sayin.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Pathfinder on July 21, 2012, 09:09:42 AM
Just had a thought this morning.

How did he get into the theater carrying all that without raising an eyebrow?

I know you can conceal a handgun pretty easily, but a shotgun, carbine, gas mask, and all the ammo to go with it?  (an 870 doesn't take mags ya know)  I'd think even a trenchcoat would have some serious "bumps" in it with all that.

Just sayin.

Side door. He went out after the movie started, propped it open, and came back in geared up.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 21, 2012, 09:14:43 AM
I haven't clicked on the news yet this morning, but I think this picure helps explain things:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/c1f96bfe.jpg)

from the eye witness reports, I am surmising that he bought a ticket and then went in looking like a normal person.

A few minutes into the movie he acts like he receives a phone call, gets out of his seat, walks out the exit door, maybe rigs it so it doesn't latch behind, walks the 30 feet to his car.  Once at his car he starts suiting up and gathering up his guns.  Then he goes back through the same exit door.  Throws a can/grenade or two of tear gase into the crowded theater and proceeds to shooting, first with the shotgun, when that runs dry, then he switches over to the AR which if you look closely at the pic above has a normal GI style 30 round mag still in it, not a drum mag or a beta mag which has been reported (errr.... Fabricated???... To push an agenda)

I think we can all imagine the degree of panic that set in, especiall with everbody running for the door.

So he either runs out of ammo or figures the police are on their way, and walks out to the exit door, and is about to get in his car.  Supposedly, one or two cops see him but they think he is a cop just like them.

In other pics or footage, you can see the pieces of body armor and helmet lying on the sidewalk kind of close to the car.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 21, 2012, 10:25:02 AM

So he either runs out of ammo or figures the police are on their way, and walks out to the exit door, and is about to get in his car.  Supposedly, one or two cops see him but they think he is a cop just like them.


In other words, after shooting (reportedly) 71 people over 15 minutes the only thing that prevented him from just driving away was the fact that he wanted to get caught.

Gee, I wonder if radical Muslims are paying any attention to this ?

When seconds count, the cops are only a 1/2 hour away.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 21, 2012, 10:51:04 AM
It might have been 15 minutes from the time he started shooting to the time he got the cuffs slapped on him.

I seriously doubt he was firing for the whole 15 minutes.

Dumping that much adrenaline seems to screw with people's perception of time.  And once one eye witness says "it was like 15 minutes", any other witnesses now have that planted in their heads.

At some point, hopefully, we will get to hear the UNedited/UNtampered with 911 tapes, which should be coded with the actual times.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ichiban on July 21, 2012, 02:26:08 PM
Now I hear the LSM calling his vest "tactical" and no longer "bullet proof", even if they are still trying to leave that impression: "dressed head to toe in bullet proof gear."  Ya think maybe someone told them that you gotta spend more than $140 to get a bullet proof vest?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: bjtraz on July 21, 2012, 02:46:51 PM
I haven't clicked on the news yet this morning, but I think this picure helps explain things:
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/c1f96bfe.jpg)

from the eye witness reports, I am surmising that he bought a ticket and then went in looking like a normal person.

A few minutes into the movie he acts like he receives a phone call, gets out of his seat, walks out the exit door, maybe rigs it so it doesn't latch behind, walks the 30 feet to his car.  Once at his car he starts suiting up and gathering up his guns.  Then he goes back through the same exit door.  Throws a can/grenade or two of tear gase into the crowded theater and proceeds to shooting, first with the shotgun, when that runs dry, then he switches over to the AR which if you look closely at the pic above has a normal GI style 30 round mag still in it, not a drum mag or a beta mag which has been reported (errr.... Fabricated???... To push an agenda)

I think we can all imagine the degree of panic that set in, especiall with everbody running for the door.

So he either runs out of ammo or figures the police are on their way, and walks out to the exit door, and is about to get in his car.  Supposedly, one or two cops see him but they think he is a cop just like them.

In other pics or footage, you can see the pieces of body armor and helmet lying on the sidewalk kind of close to the car.


Not to split hairs, but it is POSSIBLE that the mag is one of the new ones from Surefire, that do, indeed, hold 60 or 100 rounds. From this angle, that can't be determined. I'm just saying...................

Brian
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 21, 2012, 03:40:23 PM
Now I hear the LSM calling his vest "tactical" and no longer "bullet proof", even if they are still trying to leave that impression: "dressed head to toe in bullet proof gear."  Ya think maybe someone told them that you gotta spend more than $140 to get a bullet proof vest?

Ichiban,

Yesterday Chief Oates said he was wearing a ballistic tactical vest.  When asked what about bullet proof and what is tactical, he replied with words of bullet resistant and that the tactical had places to help hold "clips" and other items.  Oates did well earlier yesterday using the word magazines, but as he got very tired he shifted to clips, and today he is back using magazines.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 21, 2012, 08:33:49 PM
He bought some of his stuff from a St. louis area vendor:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/massacre-suspect-bought-equipment-from-chesterfield-based-firm/article_143864cc-d2db-11e1-8841-001a4bcf6878.html
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 21, 2012, 09:12:01 PM
Not to split hairs, but it is POSSIBLE that the mag is one of the new ones from Surefire, that do, indeed, hold 60 or 100 rounds. From this angle, that can't be determined. I'm just saying...................

Brian

Whoops, yeah, totally forgot about the Surefire mags.  But the talking heads were specifically talking drum magazines... You know, just like at first they  called it an AK. ::)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 21, 2012, 09:24:11 PM
Not to split hairs, but it is POSSIBLE that the mag is one of the new ones from Surefire, that do, indeed, hold 60 or 100 rounds. From this angle, that can't be determined. I'm just saying...................

Brian

They specifically said that one of the magazines was a 100 round drum magazine.  It was in the initial reports, and it was repeated later by the Chief in his briefing.  I'm thinking a Beta Mag, because they have become very common in stores and on line.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 21, 2012, 09:31:02 PM
I've asked on forums about those beta mags.  Some say they are jamomatics.  Some say they run 100%. ???

call me sceptical, but unless I see the chief hold up an actual beta mag, i'll continue to find those reports doubtful.

Remember how the sheriff acted in the Gabby Giffords case.  He clearly had an agenda.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 21, 2012, 09:37:51 PM
Tyler,

The Beta Mags have improved since they came out.  Also, we don't know how many rounds he actually fired from it.  He was doing New York reloads as he went through the theater.

Also, if you listen to the local officials you will not hear an agenda outside of nailing this guy's balls to a stump and pushing him off backwards.  They are being very careful not to miss anything or let anything leak.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 21, 2012, 09:57:57 PM
Tyler,

The Beta Mags have improved since they came out.  Also, we don't know how many rounds he actually fired from it.  He was doing New York reloads as he went through the theater.

Also, if you listen to the local officials you will not hear an agenda outside of nailing this guy's balls to a stump and pushing him off backwards.  They are being very careful not to miss anything or let anything leak.

I have to say that from what I have seen and heard all the local officials are handling it professionally.
The media on the other hand sinks to their usual low standard of hype , uninformed speculation and  hysterics.   :-\
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: JLawson on July 22, 2012, 01:11:33 AM
The Surefire mags have a pretty distinctive appearance and even the 60-round model extends well below the grip.

(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z442/JLinTX/Surefire_Mags.jpg)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: mkm on July 22, 2012, 02:15:32 AM
Quote
Meanwhile, a federal law enforcement official provided an updated account about the gunfire inside the theater, saying that a semi-automatic assault rifle used by the shooter jammed during the attack, forcing him to switch to another weapon.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said late Saturday night that the jammed weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a weapon would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute.


http://news.yahoo.com/police-colo-suspect-planned-massacre-months-033025968.html (http://news.yahoo.com/police-colo-suspect-planned-massacre-months-033025968.html)

Still a little odd based off of the photo above.  If it jammed with the beta mag and he swapped weapons, why does it not have it in picture?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 22, 2012, 03:43:54 AM
some people think or have suggested he was planning on getting away.  Leaving a legally purchased AR behind with an intact serial number then doesn't make much sense.   ???

Not that i am expecting any of it to make any sense.???
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Rastus on July 22, 2012, 08:09:14 AM
OK. borrowing a page from the opposition.  Though we don't know just yet what exactly makes this guy tick, reports from reputable sources are quoted as saying Holmes is a Black Bloc member and an Occupy member; of which Occupy received substantial support from Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic members of Congress.  In fact, according to these sources, Holmes was a California Democrat in the truest sense who supported Obama and other left-wing radical movements and ideas as learned growing up in San Diego.  Questioning of Congressional Democrats must occur to determine what kind of a connection between Holmes and Congressional Democrats may exists and how their support and possible personal support to Occupy made it possible for Holmes to obtain these weapons of mass destruction.

Next, the Cinemark chain should be held wholly responsible for the senseless slaughter that occurred because of a total lack of security.  Cinemark enjoyed a certain benefit from the total of the $165 million that was taken in or projected to be taken in for this movie thus far over the weekend.  Social concience and responsibility demands that Cinemark be held accountable for not providing a safe enviornoment for it's patrons.  And clearly, if Holmes did enter by breaking through an exit door as has been reported by various sources then Cinemark must be entirely held responsible for substandard design which should immediately be upgraded across the country.  In short, to be a good social citizen, Cinemark must immediately provide security for its patrons, upgrade it's possibly flimsy facilities if the exit door entry by breaking down really did happen and finally separate itself from any vestiage of corporate greed by giving back all profits of this and other movie to both the families of the victims of this tragedy and to organizations and individuals who might have prevented this horrible occurence had they been allowed.

Now guys...muse on that a bit.  In the Luby's ruling the Supreme Court has made companies responsible for security when they especially if the prevent someone from defending themself... I think there have been 4 or 5 similar rulings.  I know here that Cinemark has those cutesy circles and bars through handgun decals that stops all bad guys.  But seriously, we need to not let the other side use this and one way is to demand corporate social responsibility.  I don't know if the liberal lawyers are sharpening their knives yet for one of their own, but if I was a victim I'd be suing Cinemark for allowing this to happen and movie company for allowing their movie to be shown in substandard and unsafe facilities.  

We just can't lay here and say that we are good guys and our way would have prevented the magnitude of this tragedy.  We need to give the opposition, staying truthful of course, the same dose they try to feed us when something horrible like this happens.  So, the company that did not protect it's patrons needs to be hounded across the country and at their Plano office with pickets demanding they turn from their corporate greed and pay for "cheap and affordable" security...demanding of course from our Congressional Reps and Senators that a federal bill tied to interstate trade insures at least one paid cop on duty in each individual movie they show....a work program of sorts.  Let us see if the cute little circle and bar with a handgun in it will stand here and take that action towards other companies....we need to use this as a watershed to see Cinemark bankrupted over this and strike common sense into other irresponsible corporations that the cute decals they post come with financial responsibility.

OK...I'm posting without reviewing.. dangerous thing.  Maybe some of our manufacturers can fund some people to stir social responsiblity up in this or a like manner.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 22, 2012, 08:12:13 AM
Does anyone have access to the photos of the guns referred to.  The only ones I have seen on TV are the ones put together from file photos, and not the actual guns.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 22, 2012, 08:40:42 AM
I haven't seen any pics yet.

I am tuning into the ar15.com thread.  I figure any breaking news or leads would show up there first.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ichiban on July 22, 2012, 08:45:22 AM
Does anyone have access to the photos of the guns referred to.  The only ones I have seen on TV are the ones put together from file photos, and not the actual guns.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/foghorn/overview-of-the-guns-used-in-the-colorado-batman-shooting/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/foghorn/overview-of-the-guns-used-in-the-colorado-batman-shooting/)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 22, 2012, 09:15:49 AM
I was asking for the actual guns and the way they were set up.  These are no different than the generic catalog photos they have been using since Saturday morning on the media
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 09:36:25 AM
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=20124.msg254086#msg254086

Half way down page 3 of this thread Tyler posted a photo that, in the top left corner shows an AR (presumably the one used) laying on the ground by the Exit door.

Rastus, the reports I've heard were that he initially bought a ticket and entered like every one else, he then went out through the exit and propped it open so he could gear up and come back in.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 22, 2012, 09:44:33 AM
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=20124.msg254086#msg254086

Half way down page 3 of this thread Tyler posted a photo that, in the top left corner shows an AR (presumably the one used) laying on the ground by the Exit door.

Rastus, the reports I've heard were that he initially bought a ticket and entered like every one else, he then went out through the exit and propped it open so he could gear up and come back in.

Thanks.  It will be interesting to see the entire collection.  That AR has a standard - 40 or maybe 60 round magazine it appears.  They were stating specifically that he had purchased a drum magazine.

That is what I have heard whenever they have gone down a timeline of events.  I am waiting to hear why the staff was not aware the door was open.  Those exit doors are commonly used to empty theaters during busy times so as to not run everyone back through the lobby and waiting movie goers waiting for the next show.  However, they are wired to keep people from letting non-paying friends in.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 09:55:05 AM
To me it looks as if the mag in the rifle on the ground is a standard 30 rounder.
Taking that, with the reports that a "drum mag" was found at the scene, and that he suffered a jam at some point, and the extended time he reportedly spent shooting, makes me think he started out with something like a "Beta mag" or the old Ramline drum, it jammed, and at some point he cleared the jam, replacing the "drum" with a standard mag.
As with most of the news reports this is pure speculation on my part , but unlike the media, I will not attempt to pass it off as fact.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 22, 2012, 10:24:28 AM
Well, if a drum mag was found in there, the feds can just strip off the remaining rounds left in it to determine at what point it jammed.

I haven't heard one way or the other if he actually shot his pistol.

In the one pic, it almost appears that there is a yellow evidence marker hooked into the AR's ejection port.... Like the bolt is locked back or it is jammed open.

The guy standing by the door with the orange rod is working in conjunction with another guy who has a fancy transit called a total station.  He shoots a laser to a prism mounted on top of the rod.  All the distance and elevation data goes into a computer.

On a much different note, check out this thread:

http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?p=818002&posted=1#post818002

There is a poster there with the screename "Homerboy".  I don't think he gets it.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 11:07:48 AM


http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?p=818002&posted=1#post818002

There is a poster there with the screename "Homerboy".  I don't think he gets it.

People like that are why I don't post on other forums.
People like that are more dangerous to our rights than all the Brady's in the world because they are perfectly willing to give away YOUR rights.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: JLawson on July 22, 2012, 11:24:52 AM
Homerboy said several times that he would not mind at all having to have a background check for private sales.  I wonder if he's thought about what would happen if the FBI decided to turn NICS off... for a day, a month, a year, or forever.  I don't want the NRA membership numbers to decline but I can't help but think that we might be better off without members like Homerboy.  Compromise is somethng we can not do.

Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 12:39:54 PM
Homerboy said several times that he would not mind at all having to have a background check for private sales. I wonder if he's thought about what would happen if the FBI decided to turn NICS off... for a day, a month, a year, or forever.  I don't want the NRA membership numbers to decline but I can't help but think that we might be better off without members like Homerboy.  Compromise is somethng we can not do.



Agreed wholeheartedly !
This is something they actually have done in the past, supposedly "for maintenance".
There was at least one State that also shut down it's instant check site on the weekend of the largest gun show in the state.

Saw some one wearing a cop uniform (sound was off and closed captioning covered up who it was) on one of the Sunday talk shows saying he was opposed to a total gun ban, but couldn't we get rid of these "assualt weapons" and "high capacity" magazines.
We need to all act to nip this sh!t in the bud before it gets any traction.
Both Australia and England lost their rights over incidents like this.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 22, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
Side door. He went out after the movie started, propped it open, and came back in geared up.

Thanks Path and Tyler for answering this for me.  8) 
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Ulmus on July 22, 2012, 12:48:46 PM
Agreed wholeheartedly !
This is something they actually have done in the past, supposedly "for maintenance".
There was at least one State that also shut down it's instant check site on the weekend of the largest gun show in the state.

Saw some one wearing a cop uniform (sound was off and closed captioning covered up who it was) on one of the Sunday talk shows saying he was opposed to a total gun ban, but couldn't we get rid of these "assualt weapons" and "high capacity" magazines.
We need to all act to nip this sh!t in the bud before it gets any traction.
Both Australia and England lost their rights over incidents like this.

Agreed!

Just like any other weapon the percentage of carbines and high capacity magazines used for innocent fun is vastly higher than the percentage used for illegal reasons.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
Just sent this to both my Senators;

One legally armed citizen could have ended the tragedy in Colorado with only a couple people injured, or none as in the Pearl Miss case.
Please work to eliminate the predator hunting preserves called "gun free zones", all they do is to make innocent people vulnerable to those who don't care about your laws.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 22, 2012, 01:02:53 PM
Thanks Tom!

I will being doing my version of the same.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 22, 2012, 01:06:17 PM
Thanks Tom!

I will being doing my version of the same.

Here's another one I also sent, it's from a post I put on here :

Va Tech,  U of Alabama Huntsville,the Gifford's shooting in Tuscon, Ft Hood,now this guy.
There is one common thread that no one is addressing seriously.
In every case the killer was recognized as a dangerous nut job by people who dealt with them and no one did anything about it. Every one of them had a clean police record, the only one who did not go through at least one NICS check was Amy Bishop in Ala who used a borrowed pistol, and even though she had previously killed her own brother with a shotgun she would have passed because that was classed as an accident when she was a juvenile. (The case was reopened after the Huntsville shooting and found to have been badly flawed )
If we were less politically correct, and more proactive about mental health issues we would not need gun laws.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tt11758 on July 22, 2012, 03:25:23 PM
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428831_442034899174113_531065750_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 22, 2012, 06:27:57 PM
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428831_442034899174113_531065750_n.jpg)

And if only one of them had been allowed in the theater armed, the tragedy might have been minimized....
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: philw on July 23, 2012, 06:24:24 AM
And if only one of them had been allowed in the theater armed, the tragedy might have been minimized....

was the thearter a Gun free zone?? 


also from a tactical point,  with him using the tear gas or what ever it was,   was there to disorientate the other people in the theatre so even if there was a CCW person in there  then it would not of been easy for them to take a shot.



Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 23, 2012, 07:09:07 AM
was the thearter a Gun free zone??

Yes. Just like Virginia Tech. In these 2 instances alone there were 44 people killed in, "gun free zones".

"It appears that Cinemark Holdings Inc., owner of the theater where these murders took place exercises its rights as an owner of private property in Colorado to bar those who hold concealed carry permits from exercising their rights in its theaters. As a result, law-abiding citizens, including owners of concealed carry permits, who were in the theater that dreadful night were unarmed and thus unable to defend themselves and their fellow movie-goers from the murderous attack visited upon them."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-07-21/Aurora-shooting-Batman-Pendley-mountain-states-concealed-carry/56394526/1
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 23, 2012, 07:50:51 AM
I'm amazed that got into USA Today.
Some one will be fired for that most likely.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 23, 2012, 09:29:02 AM
Yes. Just like Virginia Tech. In these 2 instances alone there were 44 people killed in, "gun free zones".

"It appears that Cinemark Holdings Inc., owner of the theater where these murders took place exercises its rights as an owner of private property in Colorado to bar those who hold concealed carry permits from exercising their rights in its theaters. As a result, law-abiding citizens, including owners of concealed carry permits, who were in the theater that dreadful night were unarmed and thus unable to defend themselves and their fellow movie-goers from the murderous attack visited upon them."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-07-21/Aurora-shooting-Batman-Pendley-mountain-states-concealed-carry/56394526/1

And this is why I take full advantage of Minnesota's toothless signage.  My wife has finally quit pointing the signs out to me as we walk past and she knows I am fully armed.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 23, 2012, 09:57:15 AM
Except for schools and Federal buildings, (which I have no reason to go into), I completely ignore "gun free zones".
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: lhprop1 on July 23, 2012, 11:10:11 AM
And this is why I take full advantage of Minnesota's toothless signage.  My wife has finally quit pointing the signs out to me as we walk past and she knows I am fully armed.

The funny thing is that most of the signs here don't even use the wording required by law.   
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tt11758 on July 23, 2012, 11:47:47 AM
And this is why I take full advantage of Minnesota's toothless signage.  My wife has finally quit pointing the signs out to me as we walk past and she knows I am fully armed.


Same here.  In Iowa, those signs don't hold the force of law.  If the business discovers that you're carrying, they can ask you to leave.  If you refuse, you're guilty of Criminal Trespass.  I always simply make sure my gun(s) doesn't show.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tt11758 on July 23, 2012, 12:04:18 PM
Just saw footage of this douchebag's initial court appearance.  Looks like they had him in a vest under his jail uniform.  Probably a prudent course of action under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 23, 2012, 01:20:56 PM
Just saw footage of this douchebag's initial court appearance.  Looks like they had him in a vest under his jail uniform. Probably a prudent course of action under the circumstances.

Why ?
With the exception of a possible distraught relative, (who would have had to go through a metal detector ) our side very seldom resorts to violence.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Rastus on July 24, 2012, 06:25:50 AM
<snip>
"It appears that Cinemark Holdings Inc., owner of the theater where these murders took place exercises its rights as an owner of private property in Colorado to bar those who hold concealed carry permits from exercising their rights in its theaters. As a result, law-abiding citizens, including owners of concealed carry permits, who were in the theater that dreadful night were unarmed and thus unable to defend themselves and their fellow movie-goers from the murderous attack visited upon them."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-07-21/Aurora-shooting-Batman-Pendley-mountain-states-concealed-carry/56394526/1

Sue Cinemark into bankruptcy.

Socially irresponsible corporate greed may be the driver here to not provide adequete security to protect it's patrons seems to be the path they took.  They want the cute symbols to make silly people feel safe but rake in profits instead of spending part of it to make sure it's patrons are secure when by corporate policy they require them to be disarmed....liberal bastards....sue them.  Sue the movie moguls who would put their shows in such theatres.  Sue the peanut and popcorn makers along with the soda companies and candy makers who would put their products in a venue where peoples lives are at risk due to a reckless corporate policy.

Use the tools available to affect social change.  At issue here is that the victims or their families must initiate action but can anyone else in behalf....MB your sweety should know.  Cinemark and all those mentioned above are rich targets...this is the time for a bulldog ambulance chaser who sees $$$$ in his eyes.  Yes it's tragic, yes it is distasteful to profit on such but dammit this needs to be done.  Dangerous corporate policies and their basis need to be opened up in court to the tune of billions in potential losses for the damned belief that companies are protecting themselves from liability by advancing liberal notions that have no basis in fact...sue their pants off.

All of our talking in our little group is a mutual admiration society, we need societal change outside our subculture if we are to be effective.

Sue Cinemark into bankruptcy.  Along with the movie moguls (you know all those movies loose money, right?) and whoever else supplies anything patrons access in a Cinemark movie house.

I think I might go post on Huffington to give some lawyer ideas....
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 24, 2012, 06:48:01 AM
Sue Cinemark into bankruptcy.

I think if there are any wounded survivors who hold CCW permits in that bunch, that is exactly what they'll do. And I don't blame them one bit. Here you have a state that allows CCW, but some corporation decides for whatever reason, they don't want to allow you to exercise that right. As a direct result of their poor decision making you end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life. Even I could sell that to a sympathetic jury.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 24, 2012, 08:21:49 AM
The Ohio CC law has a provision for posting signs on personal property.

The provision also has language to protect the property owner in either case, should they be sued for posting the sign or for not posting the sign.

I don't know of any court test of this provision of the law for either side.

I have recently read that there was a SCOTUS decision that seemed to allow a suit against an entity that did prevent a CC permit holder to carry in an otherwise legal location.   I did not verify the source or it's claim, but it did seem that I would have heard of that decision, in blazing headlines, here or elsewhere moments after it was announced.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 25, 2012, 08:13:07 AM
Here it is Wednesday morning about 8 AM St. Louis time.  I have the CBS channel on and their morning show led off the 8 o'clock hour with the Michael Jackson family drama,

I find that interesting.   ???
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 25, 2012, 09:08:57 AM
Here it is Wednesday morning about 8 AM St. Louis time.  I have the CBS channel on and their morning show led off the 8 o'clock hour with the Michael Jackson family drama,

I find that interesting.   ???

Have you read the comments on the news stories about Colo ?
While you will find multiple posts by the same deranged anti gun fanatics on each story the vast majority are PISSED, and the ones they are pissed at are the anti's and crazed gunmen.
Unlike "global warming" the debate on "Gun Control" truly is over as far as the average American is concerned, and it ended when they bought their first gun.
Of course the die hard socialists in media, academia, and the Democratic Party will continue to beat this dead horse.
(hopefully PETA, or the SPCA will get on them about that )
If we are not watchful they may even get some laws passed, but they will have to be, like Obamacare, rammed through by stealth and chicanery, they will have no popular support.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 25, 2012, 11:27:26 AM
No, actually I haven't read any of the comments from the online news sources...too many dumb people writing stupid crap that just pisses me off.

But I am glad those online news sources have been getting those kind of responses.

I have been reading a lot of the gun forums and other shooters's impressions/opinions/thoughts on this whole ordeal.  Some of the posts about coming to a compromise with the gun grabbers have pissed me off too.   >:(

I still have some UNanswered questions....things that haven't been answered definitively enough for me.

1.  was he really wearing some sort of body armor? (the latest reports I have seen say it was some tactical vest just made out of nylon fabric manufactured by Blackhawk and sold to him by a St. Louis company)

2.  was it really tear gas/CS that he threw into the theater? 

3.  did he make the tear gas/smoke bomb "grenade" himself, or did he buy it somewhere?

4.  was there at least one other person, an accomplice involved, who answered his cell phone and momentarily went out through the theater's exit door?

5.  from some other forum/news source there was mention of some white collar-ish gal who was seen coming and going from Holmes's apartment.  on the day of the shootings she was supposedly seen leaving the apartment complex wearing construction type clothes instead.  sooooo.....who is she?  did she really exist?

6.  also from some other forum, there was mention of a video online somewhere taken of him being interviewed at age 18 before going to college where he talks about reality and fantasy and history, and just in general  some far out stuff.  have you guys seen this video?

7.  did his grad school program know he was nuts?

8.  when will the Tea Party sue George Stephanopulus and ABC news for slandering them?

9.  Should journalists be required to carry malpractice insurance?

10.  was he under the care of a psychiatrist/psychologist and what meds was he prescribed?

11.  was he an actual member of the Occupy/Black Bloc movement?



I'm sure other questions will pop up later.


Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 25, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
I did hear the AR mag that jammed up on him was a cheap Korean knock off of the 100 round Beta-C Mag. One more reason to stick to OEM magazines.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 25, 2012, 12:41:16 PM
okay, good point about the supposedly made in Korea Beta C mag...

where, exactly did you hear that?

do you have a link to a news source?

or was it just conjecture/speculation/supposition on another internet forum?

sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, but I have read/heard pretty much the same thing from another forum.

Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 25, 2012, 02:38:09 PM
okay, good point about the supposedly made in Korea Beta C mag...

where, exactly did you hear that?

do you have a link to a news source?

or was it just conjecture/speculation/supposition on another internet forum?

sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, but I have read/heard pretty much the same thing from another forum.



Understood, you are trying to sort information from BS.
 I'll fill in the blanks I can , others do the same with this post an accurate picture should emerge.

"1.  was he really wearing some sort of body armor? (the latest reports I have seen say it was some tactical vest just made out of nylon fabric manufactured by Blackhawk and sold to him by a St. Louis company)"

That is correct, he was wearing an ordinary tactical vest from Tacticalgear .com

http://tacticalgear.com/

"6.  also from some other forum, there was mention of a video online somewhere taken of him being interviewed at age 18 before going to college where he talks about reality and fantasy and history, and just in general  some far out stuff.  have you guys seen this video?

He may have been younger than 18, it was some kind of science fair, he was discussing something about "Time".




7.  did his grad school program know he was nuts?

http://news.yahoo.com/report-colorado-shooting-suspect-sent-plans-notebook-psychiatrist-170815999.html

Report: Colorado shooting suspect sent plans notebook to psychiatrist

AURORA, Colo. (Reuters) - The man accused of Friday's movie theater massacre in Colorado mailed a notebook "full of details about how he was going to kill people" to a University of Colorado psychiatrist before the attack, FoxNews.com reported on Wednesday.

The package allegedly from the suspected shooter, 24-year-old James Eagan Holmes, remained unopened in a mailroom for as long as a week before its discovery Monday, FoxNews.com reported, citing a law enforcement source.
>>>>>>>MORE AT LINK<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

11.  was he an actual member of the Occupy/Black Bloc movement?

I have not been able to confirm this .
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: jnevis on July 25, 2012, 05:06:32 PM
They are already looking at suing Cinemark and the local theater for not alarming the door.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/wake-tragedies-lawyers-step-colorado-shooting-survivor-plans-172430871.html

I added the following comment:
"Why sue them for not just having an alarm? What about the fact that the theater owners WILLINGLY allowed the shootings to escalate by requiring those people allowed to LEGALLY carry a means to defend themselves leave those tools outside by posting "Gun Free Zone" signs on the doors. As this proves AGAIN, "Gun Free Zones" aren't to a criminal, only to those that would possibly stop them. A properly licensed citizen with a concealed weapon could have had the opportunity to stop the suspect after the first few shots, not until after he was out of the building as the cops did. He walked past the first three rows of seats, so at least someone could have gotten to him from behind, even if they didn't actually shoot him. Contrary to what TV and movies would like you to believe, bullet proof vests AREN'T. They can be defeated after a small number of well placed shoots at a reasonable distance. Besides, the "tactical vest" he was supposedly wearing wasn't armor, but was for paintball, just padding.
 
Those that say only the police should have guns... the police are only there to mark the location of the bodies and arrest the shooter, not actually STOP him unless they are RIGHT there. The INDIVIDUAL is responsible and has the right for SELF-DEFENSE, by whatever means are necessary. When seconds count, the police will be minutes away.

Why is it that states with CCW permits have lower violent crime rates than those that restrict the right of self-defense? Easy, criminals still have weapons and they know no one else does. Easy prey. Make a predator think twice about YOU as a target, they will find someone easier to go after.You can't take away all the guns, ask the Aussies and Brits. They still have shootings more than 20 years after they effectively (legally anyway) outlawed private firearms. Criminals, by definition, don't follow laws"

We'll see what kind of furour THAT causes on Yahoo (D)
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 25, 2012, 06:09:31 PM
^^^awesome!

as far as that one Occupy picture floating around, nobody so far I has come forward to deny it either.  Nobody has said "Oh, that's actually my little brother Bobby at an Occupy Cincinatti event."
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 25, 2012, 06:57:09 PM
^^^awesome!

as far as that one Occupy picture floating around, nobody so far I has come forward to deny it either.  Nobody has said "Oh, that's actually my little brother Bobby at an Occupy Cincinatti event."

I have not found any denials either, but I have found no other reference at all.

.
Why is it that states with CCW permits have lower violent crime rates than those that restrict the right of self-defense? Easy, criminals still have weapons and they know no one else does. Easy prey. Make a predator think twice about YOU as a target, they will find someone easier to go after.You can't take away all the guns, ask the Aussies and Brits. They still have shootings more than 20 years after they effectively (legally anyway) outlawed private firearms. Criminals, by definition, don't follow laws"

We'll see what kind of furour THAT causes on Yahoo (D)

I'll give you a thumbs up J  ;D

The antis outright lie and say that Gun controlling states have lower crime rates.
They try to avoid the question of why did Chitcago have 10 times more shootings the week of the 4th than NH had in the last decade.
They try to avoid it, in face to face debates with me they fail, miserably  ;D
The most anti gun city in the country, in one of the most anti gun states, had 77 shootings in one week, and they have hit these types of numbers before.
In NH all you need to buy anything short of NFA is money and an ID and you walk out with it after the form and phone call.
CCW is a $10 2 week formality, we have not had 77 shootings in the last ten years, total.
And 50% of the ones we do have involve minorities formerly from Mass.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Rastus on July 25, 2012, 09:03:50 PM
<snip>as far as that one Occupy picture floating around, nobody so far I has come forward to deny it either.  Nobody has said "Oh, that's actually my little brother Bobby at an Occupy Cincinatti event."

I think the MSM is scared to go there.  Past normal practice has been to attack anyone from "the other side" that presents another point of view to shout them down....we aren't seeing that here.  I would not at all be surprised if they were not sitting on footage that confirms him as a fleabag occupier.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 25, 2012, 10:05:21 PM
I think the MSM is scared to go there.  Past normal practice has been to attack anyone from "the other side" that presents another point of view to shout them down....we aren't seeing that here.  I would not at all be surprised if they were not sitting on footage that confirms him as a fleabag occupier.

That thought had crossed my mind but I'm not finding anything in the Blogosphere either, Brietbart, Blaze, the Heritage newsletters, Hotair, none of them have anything about it.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: TAB on July 26, 2012, 01:49:01 AM
Tom you know that there is a lot more to violent crime rates then just ccw.     
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 26, 2012, 05:43:00 AM
That thought had crossed my mind but I'm not finding anything in the Blogosphere either, Brietbart, Blaze, the Heritage newsletters, Hotair, none of them have anything about it.

You just gotta know that some other people in the blogosphere had to have seen that OWS pic anf then tried to vet its authenticity.  But I still can't find one source that goes "A'yup, that's a photo shop!"

Weird! ???

It's just completely dropped off the radar.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 26, 2012, 05:50:35 AM
Tom you know that there is a lot more to violent crime rates then just ccw.     

Yeah, but it is not politically correct to attempt to connect things like race, socio-economic status, population density, education level, parents's marital status, etcetera, etcetera to crime rates.

This could be a thread all to itself:  would legalizing all drugs reduce crime?
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 26, 2012, 06:46:01 AM
Yeah, but it is not politically correct to attempt to connect things like race, socio-economic status, population density, education level, parents's marital status, etcetera, etcetera to crime rates.

This could be a thread all to itself:  would legalizing all drugs reduce crime?

Making the assumption that by drugs* you mean the ones generally used for "recreation".

I would say the answer is yes. 

Not only would it reduce street crime, the reduction in the detention of folks using and selling the drugs could free up to 50%  of the jail space, a cost savings in though times.

The price of the drugs would fall making it possible to maintain a habit without resorting to crime....at least for those with enough self control left to be ale to sweep floors....

The purity of the drugs would be higher and the potency standardized so deaths from ODs would be reduced.

The tax revenue generated from the legal sale of drugs would make a major impact on available tax revenue....not that it would be spent any wiser than it is now.

Some of that revenue might be diverted to rehabilitation programs to salvage those among the drug users who might respond.

Perhaps some type of "permit" to purchase legally, renewable every 6mo.   Requirements would be that initially and every 6mos, the user would have to get a physical at a free clinic and then receive counseling about the current state of his health, the impact of drugs on him and a review of the rehabilitation services available.  The user shows up, gets examined, gets counseled, is handed his "permit" and is free to do with his life as he chooses.

The "free" clinic would be financed by volunteer work, donations and perhaps a portion of the tax revenue generated by drug sales.

If any more forceful efforts to rehabilitate the user are desired, it would be up to their friends and family to pursue that course, not the government. 

*16oz Big Gulps and Big Macs would not be considered drugs.  ;D
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: jaybet on July 26, 2012, 07:24:21 AM
I was going to say, "Think of all the money we'd save from the 'War on Drugs'", but then I realized we would need a bureaucracy to administer the free purchase of the legal drugs, so I guess that would be a wash.
Then of course, there's how to hide that huge black budget they have now for the "War on Drugs".
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 26, 2012, 08:03:27 AM
I was going to say, "Think of all the money we'd save from the 'War on Drugs'", but then I realized we would need a bureaucracy to administer the free purchase of the legal drugs, so I guess that would be a wash.
Then of course, there's how to hide that huge black budget they have now for the "War on Drugs".

Sell drugs through the same channels we sell beer and booze today.   Yeah...there is the opportunity for abuse, but it is the same for everything.    We just need to get better at fighting that type of corruption....simple flogging and tar and feathers would do wonders....
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 26, 2012, 08:23:10 AM
My beef with this is just because you don't want drugs legalized, doesn't mean you support a "war on drugs". You can be against both. I don't think we should be sending government forces to Central America to combat jungle Cocaine plants. At the same time legally selling this stuff is stupid, as L.A. has found out the hard way. They legalized this big ruse of "Medical Marijuana", and now they are going to close down these so called "legal" pot stores, because they have become a haven for crime and all sorts of illegal activity. Something the pro pot crowd said would never happen. The stores selling this crap are not properly taxing it, and just pocketing the cash. So much for selling and taxing it "legally". Yeah, right.

If people want drugs, they're going to get them. But that doesn't mean we should make it easier. Personally, if someone O.D.'s on street drugs, let them die, period. They knew the risk when they stuck the needle in their arm. Tax payers should not be held financially liable to clean up these idiots with all of these "drug rehabilitation programs". Other silly taxpayer burdens like the stupid D.A.R.E. Program accomplish nothing but the wasting of even more taxpayer dollars on programs that don't work.

If someone wants to use illegal street drugs, fine. When you harm yourself in the process, or else flush your life down the toilet because of it, fine too. I have zero compassion for these people. Dumb is dumb. That will never change. No good ever came out of someone getting high, regardless of how they do it. We have enough idiots in this country without going to greater lengths to manufacture more of them, by keeping them lazy and stupid on street drugs. We've already got enough legal ones that do that.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 08:36:48 AM

The price of the drugs would fall making it possible to maintain a habit without resorting to crime....at least for those with enough self control left to be ale to sweep floors....


You would have a stroke if you knew who around you was using "recreational" drugs, and other narcotics.
Your Dr ?
Some one on his staff ?
Your lawyer or accountant ?
The guy who works on your car ? (that one is nearly a certainty same with any welders you may know99% either use drugs, booze, or both )
Your neighbor hood cop ?
Your kids or wife ?
Just like with booze, responsible users are undetectable.

Dumb is dumb.

That is why keeping drugs illegal is stupid. These same people would flush their lives down the drain regardless, maybe by eating until they are to fat to move, or tanning until the are burnt to a cancerous crisp, or becoming alcoholics.
Stupidity always finds a way.

Posters on here all claim to worship the Constitution .
Please show me on cite from either the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or the Federalist that gives the Govt power over what a person puts in their body, whether it's Pot and Cocaine, or a Big Mac and 20 ounce soda.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Timothy on July 26, 2012, 08:44:12 AM
You would have a stroke if you knew who around you was using "recreational" drugs, and other narcotics.
Your Dr ?
Some one on his staff ?
Your lawyer or accountant ?
The guy who works on your car ? (that one is nearly a certainty )
Your neighbor hood cop ?
Your kids or wife ?
Just like with booze, responsible users are undetectable.

I'll second these statements.  Even though employers have pre-employment testing and random testing while employed, people are still using and quite frankly, I don't care what they do on their own time!
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 08:55:03 AM
I'll second these statements.  Even though employers have pre-employment testing and random testing while employed, people are still using and quite frankly, I don't care what they do on their own time!

Drug testing is a joke.
One of my previous employers decided to start doing that.
The ones who passed were mostly the ones they were trying to weed out, it was their best workers, and the sons of both owners who failed.
Random testing is another one, most companies will only retest if you are involved in an accident of some sort. because it is expensive and often counter productive.
Another Company I worked for decided to have a surprise test, the entire office staff failed, including the facility manager.
These were people who had grown the company from one small shop into a multi facility Corporation making several million $ per month.
Those results sort of went away and the issue was never raised again.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 26, 2012, 08:58:12 AM
You would have a stroke if you knew who around you was using "recreational" drugs, and other narcotics.
Your Dr ?
Some one on his staff ?
Your lawyer or accountant ?
The guy who works on your car ? (that one is nearly a certainty same with any welders you may know99% either use drugs, booze, or both )
Your neighbor hood cop ?
Your kids or wife ?
Just like with booze, responsible users are undetectable.


That is why keeping drugs illegal is stupid. These same people would flush their lives down the drain regardless, maybe by eating until they are to fat to move, or tanning until the are burnt to a cancerous crisp, or becoming alcoholics.
Stupidity always finds a way.

Posters on here all claim to worship the Constitution .
Please show me on cite from either the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or the Federalist that gives the Govt power over what a person puts in their body, whether it's Pot and Cocaine, or a Big Mac and 20 ounce soda.

I am aware of that.   That is why I made the distinction.  Those folks are not a threat to the peace except by what the War On Drugs does to their demand.  

I was speaking to those who do not/can not act that responsibly.


P.S.   I used the term recreational drugs rather than just drugs because there are some drugs or substances that should not be legal for citizens to posses. ...like Anthrax virus/toxin or what ever it is...or other drugs/chemicals of that nature.

Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
I am aware of that.   That is why I made the distinction.  Those folks are not a threat to the peace except by what the War On Drugs does to their demand. 

I was speaking to those who do not/can not act that responsibly.


P.S.   I used the term recreational drugs rather than just drugs because there are some drugs or substances that should not be legal for citizens to posses. ...like Anthrax virus/toxin or what ever it is...or other drugs/chemicals of that nature.



That is the same argument used by gun grabbers.
Just like with guns it is a matter of personal conduct, not an inanimate object.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Solus on July 26, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
That is the same argument used by gun grabbers.
Just like with guns it is a matter of personal conduct, not an inanimate object.

Tom, maybe you misunderstand.   I was saying that, even with the worst cases of drug addiction,  making them legal, cheaper and safer is a good plan....and added that if you are concerned about the lives of the addicts, make contributions to get them help if they wish for it...but it is their or perhaps their families choice to seek it.

Even though beer is legal now, there are those who will still steal it.  The same would be with drugs...no bigger problem.  I was just pointing out that all drug related crime would not vanish.  Under age drug use would be another issue, just the same as under age alcohol use. 
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: jnevis on July 26, 2012, 09:16:21 AM
You just gotta know that some other people in the blogosphere had to have seen that OWS pic anf then tried to vet its authenticity.  But I still can't find one source that goes "A'yup, that's a photo shop!"

Weird! ???

It's just completely dropped off the radar.

I searched for "James Holmes Occupy" last night and there are a few "he is" and just as many "He isn't" sites/posts.  There was one, I can't find it now, that showed the pic of the guy getting carried off with the name Ari something with his mug shot next to it and Holmes' pic and they were different people.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 09:22:36 AM
I have not found any denials either, but I have found no other reference at all.
Quote

Nothing I would stake my reputation on.
I'd want to know more about Metabunk first (the bottom link )



http://granitegrok.com/blog/2012/07/james-e-holmes-ties-to-occupy-san-diego

http://themadjewess.com/2012/07/22/photo-of-james-holmes-ows-san-diego-fact-holmes-registered-dem-with-occupy-black-bloc-obama-supporter/

http://metabunk.org/threads/666-Debunked-Photo-of-James-E-Holmes-at-Occupy-San-Diego
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 26, 2012, 09:23:25 AM
Legalizing drugs is a lot like gun control. On paper it makes for a good argument. Everywhere it's been applied it's turned out to be a disaster. Los Angeles is a good example. Their whole "Medical Marijuana" experiment was a disaster with crime rates rising upwards of 500% around the "clinics" that dispense. Dopers are going to steal for money to buy it, regardless if the seller is a neighborhood pusher, or a "clinic".

You can't compare this country to foreign countries like Holland either. Where are the street gangs in Holland? Where are the poor blacks? Where are the run down hispanic neighborhoods in Amsterdam? There aren't any. And besides, they never really "legalized" it. They just look the other way. Most of the dopers there are on vacation from somewhere else. It a big attraction for "recreational" dopers who go there to get high, much like young guys go to Thailand to get laid on Pattaya's Walking Street.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 09:31:04 AM
Legalizing drugs is a lot like gun control. On paper it makes for a good argument. Everywhere it's been applied it's turned out to be a disaster. Los Angeles is a good example. Their whole "Medical Marijuana" experiment was a disaster with crime rates rising upwards of 500% around the "clinics" that dispense. Dopers are going to steal for money to buy it, regardless if the seller is a neighborhood pusher, or a "clinic".

You can't compare this country to foreign countries like Holland either. Where are the street gangs in Holland? Where are the poor blacks? Where are the run down hispanic neighborhoods in Amsterdam? There aren't any. And besides, they never really "legalized" it. They just look the other way. Most of the dopers there are on vacation from somewhere else. It a big attraction for "recreational" dopers who go there to get high, much like young guys go to Thailand to get laid on Pattaya's Walking Street.

You shoot down your own argument right there.
You CAN compare the US to Holland if you are prepared to accept the unPC idea that the problems are not due to the items, but to the people.
You are talking about the exact same people who stick up perfectly legal liquor stores.
The 1920's should have gotten the idea through peoples heads, prohibition is not only a waste of time and money, if anything it is counter productive.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 26, 2012, 10:15:44 AM
You shoot down your own argument right there.
You CAN compare the US to Holland if you are prepared to accept the unPC idea that the problems are not due to the items, but to the people.
You are talking about the exact same people who stick up perfectly legal liquor stores.
The 1920's should have gotten the idea through peoples heads, prohibition is not only a waste of time and money, if anything it is counter productive.

So what would legalizing "prevent"? They're going to stick up the same liquor store if it's legal or not. It will still cost money they don't have. All you'll bring is a rash of new taxpayer funded government programs that will "provide them" with the drugs they need....At our expense. If this worked it would have been adopted by now. It hasn't. As I said Holland hasn't legalized it, they just look the other way. Legalizing it would add to the already escalating healthcare costs. More people would use, not less.

If you take something that is illegal and expensive, and make it legal, cheap, and plentiful, use will go up, not down. Then come all of the health costs associated with it's abuse. There is no way legalizing would solve any problem we currently have with drugs, except for making more lazy, non productive idiots. Which we already have too many of. If you dropped cigarette costs back down to a buck a pack, use would go up, not down.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 10:52:40 AM
So what would legalizing "prevent"? They're going to stick up the same liquor store if it's legal or not. It will still cost money they don't have. All you'll bring is a rash of new taxpayer funded government programs that will "provide them" with the drugs they need....At our expense. If this worked it would have been adopted by now. It hasn't. As I said Holland hasn't legalized it, they just look the other way. Legalizing it would add to the already escalating healthcare costs. More people would use, not less.

If you take something that is illegal and expensive, and make it legal, cheap, and plentiful, use will go up, not down. Then come all of the health costs associated with it's abuse. There is no way legalizing would solve any problem we currently have with drugs, except for making more lazy, non productive idiots. Which we already have too many of. If you dropped cigarette costs back down to a buck a pack, use would go up, not down.

Well, since Obama just created a new bureaucracy today, I'll give you what I consider the second biggest issue after the billions of dollars pissed away annually on this useless boondoggle.
I will preface it by pointing out that just like murder, those who are going to will do so and f*ck your laws.
Legalization would remove one of the primary covers the Govt has been using for decades to under mine the Constitution and erode your civil liberties.
And people like you, and several others, cheer them on while they tighten your collar.
For starters I'll give you 3 words," No Knock Warrant" Every single state in the Union has suffered innocent citizens murdered by cops because they got the wrong address or some informant just made up a story to get paid.
Just last month there was a thread about a homeowner who answered his door armed since it was late at night and was killed by police at the wrong door.
Forfeiture laws, search and seizure, under the ruse of "drug investigations" have become a notorious shake down where LE Agencies supplement their budgets by stealing the assets of "accused", not convicted, "accused drug suspects.
Even if you are found not guilty, seized assets are not returned, frequently they have already been auctioned off before you come to trial.
Currency laws, If you have a large amount of cash, gold, or other valuables they can be seized simply because you have them, then you have to prove they are not proceeds of drug sales.
Privacy laws, based on SCOTUS rulings you have no privacy. Police can come onto your property, place tracking devices on your vehicles, look through your windows, question any one they can think of about you, and search you on the street.
The only things they need a warrant for are to actually enter your home or business or tap your phone.
All under cover of the "War on Drugs".
"It's for the children " right ?
Horsesh!t, just like gun control, it's about control .

Many of you keep an eagle eye on your gun rights, mean while you swallow the rest of the BS that they have been using to f*ck you six ways from Sunday.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 26, 2012, 01:18:52 PM
You're reading way too much into all of this. The bottom line is drugs are bad for society, regardless of their legality, and or who provides them. Legalizing them won't change that. As I said, I don't agree with "the war on drugs", but I also don't agree with legalizing them either. Do idiots need to be protected from themselves? Don't know and really don't care. Just as long as I don't have to pay for it. Legalize them and we'll all be paying a lot more in more ways than one. Who mostly wants them legalized? Secular thinking Democrats. Who is the greatest provider of "social programs"? secular thinking Democrats. I don't like or believe in coincidence.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 02:00:16 PM
Bill, (and all you others who think legalization is terrible)
Have you ever heard of Larry Elder ?
Black conservative and author, I think he has or had, radio and TV shows.
Back in the 90's he wrote a book called  "10 things you can't say in America"
I started reading to see what he had to say about gun control, (this was about the time they were voting on Clinton's AWB)
Well, the book covers several other topics, welfare, is one, the war on drugs is another.
I'll look for the Amazon link.
Get the book .
Read it.
He explains it much more deeply than I can, and he has citations to back up what he says.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=larry+elder+the+ten+things+you+can%27t+say+in+america&sprefix=Larry+Elder%2Cstripbooks%2C428

They have it used paper back for a penny. (Course you still pay 3.99 shipping   :-\  )

We can continue this discussion after you've read it and we're both working with the same info.

Edited to add
None of things you have claimed were true before the 1930's when weed, cocaine, heroin, and opium were all perfectly legal.
when they decided to pass prohibition it was booze they outlawed, these things remained legal until they needed to find jobs for the , usually politically connected, Prohibition agents who were about to lose their jobs.
It's exactly the same as the NFA.
You've been fed a lot of BS to make you accept another usurpation of non existant authority by the Govt.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: billt on July 26, 2012, 03:40:55 PM
None of things you have claimed were true before the 1930's when weed, cocaine, heroin, and opium were all perfectly legal.

In the 30's we were a self reliant people and a nation. No Welfare, Medicare, Food Stamps, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance. People knew how to take care of themselves and others, and had a strong work ethic doing it. Today we take pills to cure "Restless Leg Syndrome". We've become a nation of dependant idiots, both drug and government. Adding to drugs with this bunch currently running around the country, is like giving a kid a 9 MM, and telling him to go outside and play. The result will not be good.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 07:02:48 PM
Read the book Bill, not just the parts about the War on Drugs.
Start with the part on gun control, you already know a lot about that, so you can judge the guys conclusions about things you don't know about, based on his conclusions on things you do know about.

As an aside, If the dependent die off or kill themselves how is this a bad thing ?
One half of the Govt spending goes toward keeping these "useless eaters" (to use a Stalinist term the liberals forget about. also it sounds nicer than "f*cking parasites" )
alive and voting dem.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 26, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
Watched NBC Nightly news tonight with Brian Williams.

Not one single mention whatsoever about last Friday's shooting.

Again, I find that interesting.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Timothy on July 26, 2012, 08:10:07 PM
Watched NBC Nightly news tonight with Brian Williams.

Not one single mention whatsoever about last Friday's shooting.

Again, I find that interesting.

Because no one on either side of the election process has made this a talking point, no one is going to keep it at the forefront of the news cycle.  Obama made some comments today but they have no intention of doing anything overtly obvious this year.  After November, all bets are off if he's re-elected.

The next three weeks are all about the Olympics on NBC!  There's no time to report anything else...
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 09:11:27 PM
Because no one on either side of the election process has made this a talking point, no one is going to keep it at the forefront of the news cycle.  Obama made some comments today but they have no intention of doing anything overtly obvious this year.  After November, all bets are off if he's re-elected.

The next three weeks are all about the Olympics on NBC!  There's no time to report anything else...

Except to bad mouth Romney for saying that because the  company hired to handle security came up 50% short on manpower after 2 or 3 years of planning there was reason for some concerns.
Since he organized one that was quite successful and peaceful I would listen to him , but then I'm not an agenda driven liberal A Hole, or an English PM trying to impress everyone with how efficient and security conscious I am.  ;D

The local news is still carrying reports about Holmes mailing a notebook of plans to the school, reminds me of Pearl Harbor, they sat unopened on some ones desk all weekend   ::)
However I had read the story on Yahoo Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 26, 2012, 09:58:06 PM
Watched NBC Nightly news tonight with Brian Williams.

Not one single mention whatsoever about last Friday's shooting.

Again, I find that interesting.

And here on DRTV our ADD has us mistaking a debate on the shooting with the war on drugs.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Sister Mary is beating off the indians  ;D
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 26, 2012, 10:15:44 PM
It's Tyler's fault ! 
And Sister Mary always was a bit more boisterous than decorum approves of.
Indians probably don't mind though.
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: kmitch200 on July 27, 2012, 12:25:00 AM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Sister Mary is beating off the indians  ;D

Whatever it takes to put food on the table...
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: jaybet on July 27, 2012, 05:03:49 AM
...Reminds me of one of my favorite Peter Griffin quotes:  "When I get done with you, Meg, you'll be beating off guys with both hands".
Title: Re: Mass shooting at Colorado theater
Post by: Tyler Durden on July 27, 2012, 06:01:28 AM
Yeah the first 10 minutes were all about how the Brits perceived Romney's comments as a slight against them. ::)

How's that saying go.... Socialist birds of a feather flock together.  How they fended off the Germans I'll never know.

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.