The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Michael Bane on September 07, 2008, 08:13:30 PM

Title: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Michael Bane on September 07, 2008, 08:13:30 PM
Gentlemen & Ladies;

I had hoped this would be a self-correcting problem, but apparently I was wrong.

Effective immediately, the following Forum rules are in force:

1) "Hate rants" against other shooters, firearms or accessory companies, shooting sports competitions or organizations or specific matches ARE NOT PERMITTED and will be immediately removed. If you have a legitimate problem, post it and we'll see if it can be solved. However, we will no longer allow "I hate this gun or that company or that organization" threads. PERIOD. These Forums were created to facilitate the exchange of information among adults, not to provide soapboxes for individuals with grievances.

2) Any CALLS TO ACTION — e.g., calls for boycotts, letter-writing campaigns, petitions, etc. — ARE NOT PERMITTED on these Forums and will be immediately removed. There are numerous free options for such on the Internet and we encourage people to take advantage of them. Exceptions include calls to action such as joining the NRA, but before you post any call to action check with the moderators first!

I think all of you bring something special to these Forums and I would hate to lose any of you. But these Forums are in danger of disintegrating into a "hate of the week" series of threads, and that is certainly not what Marshal or I intended.

Thanks for your help in this!

Michael Bane

 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: m25operator on September 07, 2008, 09:20:27 PM
I  hear you Major Domo, and understand, I'm sorry you have to make these kinds of decisions, but it is your cross to bear, and I understand this too. Further orders are standing by...

Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Cthulhu on September 07, 2008, 09:28:55 PM
Unfortunately, it seems that the elimination of one of those rant threads also killed off my positive review of my repaired SR9 within.   :(

-JT
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: MikeBjerum on September 07, 2008, 09:37:02 PM
Sorry to see that this needed to be done, but hopefully it will make the forum even better as we move forward.

A couple things I need to know though:

Can we still call on Haz for clarification on terminology, or should we all just fire up the blenders and mellow out ... what was that recipe?

Sorry to be a smart ass, but it's been a looooooong weekend  :(
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 07, 2008, 09:40:20 PM
Sorry to see that this needed to be done, but hopefully it will make the forum even better as we move forward.

A couple things I need to know though:

Can we still call on Haz for clarification on terminology, or should we all just fire up the blenders and mellow out ... what was that recipe?
Sorry to be a smart ass, but it's been a looooooong weekend  :(

Always available ;D

6oz of frozen Lime Aid concentrate.  Do not mix … just take the 6oz. and dump it in a blender

6oz. of your favorite tequila

6oz. of beer (pilsners or “light” beers work best)

3oz. of really cheap white wine

Add ice and blend (Taste great “on the rocks”.  However, keep in mind that they are a little more powerful given the lack of blended ice) 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Ron J on September 07, 2008, 11:54:52 PM
Always available ;D

6oz of frozen Lime Aid concentrate.  Do not mix … just take the 6oz. and dump it in a blender

6oz. of your favorite tequila

6oz. of beer (pilsners or “light” beers work best)

3oz. of really cheap white wine

Add ice and blend (Taste great “on the rocks”.  However, keep in mind that they are a little more powerful given the lack of blended ice) 




Hmmm.  I like that recipe! 

Take care. 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 12:12:46 AM
I finally have a reason to buy a blender.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Marshal Halloway on September 08, 2008, 03:01:34 AM
Hi folks!
 
Marshal'ette and I have spent over 4,300 hours building DownRange.TV and the DRTV community the way it is today. Our work also includes offline work with members and the firearms industry. We have loved every minute of it. And continue to love it each day.
 
You all have become like family to us, so I hope you will keep an open mind as you read this.
 
We have tried our best to keep the forum part as warm and ' home-like ' as possible without running it with a hard hand. We are firmly against that .  And I believe we have succeeded mostly because of the higher caliber and standards of our members, who have always without question respected the policy's of this forum.

We know first hand that it takes a long time to build an online community and it takes a very short time to destroy it, sometimes hours.
 
The new forum rules sound harsh and they came very suddenly and without warning.
 
Threads being deleted is the last option for us and it hurts to do it.

Personally, I hate being a subject of censorship.  Believe me, as active posting members of forums, we look at things the same way as you do, and can fully understand how others can and will react.
 
We have been honest and straight forward about our opinions to them and to you and have tried our best to be fair and balanced.
 
What you can read on the forum or on any forum does not always represent what is also going on behind the scenes.
Representatives from the firearms industry do read the opinions and we do forward the viewpoints and opinions to the companies.
Maybe we should post more and keep you informed of this when it is done. The reason we don't always do that, is that we don't want to create expectations that we have no control of or not able to deliver.

Our apologies to you all for not keeping you more informed on that part of it.
 
We also invite those representatives to answer and comment to you about the ongoing dialogs on topics.
 
Lately, we have also realized that we have had to answer and be accountable for our member's opinions. I know that there are some members who have been upset about products and have openly stated their opinion. This can happen in any forum and with any products that we, as consumers purchase.

To be upset is okay and to discuss the negatives of that particular product is okay too. We are not advocating a Pollyanna state of mind forum. Far from it.
 
We are not talking about the specific criticism and negative expediencies.... (we need these, as the information is very important to others who purchase these products). But we're talking more about the cynicism and initiatives that are likely to be defined as campaigns to smear a specific brand or model.  Sometimes it starts as an off the cuff statement and innocent joke and before you know it, it becomes serious without anyone really knowing how the hell it turned that way. No matter how innocent it is, we on this side of the fence, end up having to answer to the final result.
 
The Internet is a perfect place for these types of  things to get out of control and go over the top.. even when they initially didn't start as such. It has a domino effect, because sometimes the less knowledgeable comes on board anonymously and for various reasons likes to chime in and stir the pot some more. When that happens...then it becomes unfair, unbalanced and totally out of control.

It also becomes, "the truth and only the truth." From there it moves over to other forums and online communities. Compare it to the online political campaigns we have recently seen our share of.  Like a grass fire out of control.
 
We as owners and editors, have to answer to this either through normal communications or in the worst case through legal channels. This might be a surprise to you as forum members, but it is a fact we have to deal with no matter what disclaimers and rules are posted.  The end result is, we are responsible for everything that is on our website. The Good..The Bad.. and The Ugly.
 
Some have criticized us for protecting our sponsors. Yes, of course we do!  The very same way as we protect the industry in general from unfair negativity. We give you, as forum members, and the sponsors  the same chance to answer to the specifics at hand. They normally don't answer the same day as active forum members do. They are not as active in the forums as we all are on a daily basis. And sometimes, even though they are reading the complaints, they don't answer. We have no control over that part.
 
In the meantime, criticism keeps building on the criteria I mentioned above. This was also noticed by the industry even from companies that wasn't mentioned and since we didn't stop it (as in deleting posts/threads), we became... as editors .... responsible for the smear campaigns.
 
The worst part is the fact that the communication we established offline on behalf of the members who had legitimate complaints or concerns became a waste of time.
 
We do not want these efforts to be wasted and that is the main reason threads were deleted today.

Please do not think that your posts have just been tossed out in cyber space. That is not the case at all, and will never happen. 

All the messages... good and bad..that were posted, have been forwarded to proper channels. In this case Ruger and Taurus. So your posts will be read and considered important.
 
Please understand our position and please, we hope you will try to understand that we and Michael do work for your interests the same way as we work for the interests of the firearms industry. We want to try to keep future communications fair and balanced between everyone.

For those of you who are upset by this decision..We hope that we have explained things so that you can see our side of it.
 
We want to thank you so much for all that you give to the forum in your thoughts and knowledge.

We hope you will continue to post, critique products in an informational way and continue to make Down Range your online home.

Marshal & Marshal'ette
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: 1776 Rebel on September 08, 2008, 06:26:15 AM
I guess this is a Post Zumbo world. The power of free exchange of ideas is enormous. This time the companies decided to clamp down first before people started to express themselves. A pre-emptive strike. I give them credit. Very smart in the short run. 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 08, 2008, 06:34:50 AM
Obviously you guys have had to do this on my account (or at least I'm a major offender) and for that I apologize.
First, I don't feel that I personally have ever "criticized" DRTV for "protecting" their sponsors. I have mentioned it as a fact- that's something you need to do to stay in business, just like a million other things you need to do. If you took that as criticizm, it was not meant as such, and I never meant to insinuate that you all aren't concerned or are not working hard on behalf your members.

I enjoy the people and most of the conversation on this forum and would be greatly disappointed if it all went away, and will gladly follow any rules that are necessary to keep the forum up. I would also like to apologize directly to Michael, Marshall and Marshall'ette for getting carried away in my gleeful persecution of Ruger and any difficulties that may have caused them with anyone. I also apologize to any members who took offense or maybe just got sick of seeing it, and I realize that it wasn't what you come here to see.
Thanks for all you ALL do.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ellis4538 on September 08, 2008, 06:37:37 AM
Marshall, thanks for the information.  I am very surprised you have had the patience to let this kind of thing go on so long.  Even though I agree, in principle, with the criticism given certain companies it is wrong to rant like we did.  It is frustrating as a consumer to spend money or anticipate doing so only to have to wait, and wait, and wait!!!  It is also frustrating to have contacted a company or companies and not receive any kind of response whatsoever.  My frustration is very strong with several companies and if I let this color my buying habits I wouldn't have much that I could look at let alone buy!  Patience has never been one of my strong points.

Thanks for all you hve done and will do to keep DRTV the best,

Richard
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 08, 2008, 06:50:33 AM
I supposed my hand was in there as well, sort of egging it on with my jokes and half witted quips.

Count me in as saying OOPS!, too.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: MikeBjerum on September 08, 2008, 08:10:02 AM
Thanks for all you all do to provide this for us.  Thanks for being willing to be the "firemen" to protect this for the future. And, Thanks Jay (and Haz) for stepping up with an apology.  I've been guilty of getting either carried away or being just plain off base, and admitting I was wrong is tough.  I found that as I got more and more comfortable with all of you I am able to spout off without thinking things through, and I forget that not everyone understands my warped mind.

I will admit that at least one thread made me uncomfortable, but the neat, or bad, thing about a forum is we can just ignore a thread or poster at will.  However, we forget that others not only read these but take them very serious.  Sometimes they take it even more serious than us.

With these revelations I also apologize to our three providers, the sponsors of the shows, forums and sites we enjoy, and to anyone else I may have offended or hurt with my less than thoughtful posts.

It is obvious that over the recent weeks we have caused you all some stressful days and sleepless nights.

Sorry and Thanks again, from one of the kids!
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Bidah on September 08, 2008, 08:53:01 AM
Keeping a forum on original intent is a tough job, been there, done that.  I have failed and succeeded in working to do so.  All the efforts here have been outstanding, and this place has grown considerably since it was started.  I don't post a lot, but from deep down I do appreciate all the efforts that have gone into DRTV since the beginning.

Can we get one of those happy, funky, and ever so neat M'ette posts?   ;D

-Bidah
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ericire12 on September 08, 2008, 09:34:37 AM
I must say that this is a good move. I would hate for DRTV to become like all those other forums that I would never want to be apart of. So, for having the foresight to realize where the ranting was going, I say good job.

I would also like to apologize for any fanning of the flames that I might have done on any post that I have made here.

Sometimes people put the blinders on and dont really realize the road they are going down until it is too late, and I am glad that this forum did not go to the point of no return.




*Just a warning..... I dont really think that I can control myself when talking about those loony Democrats and the direction that they want to take our great nation, so you may want to ban me completely from commenting in the politics section of the forum. ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: 1776 Rebel on September 08, 2008, 10:10:05 AM
Sorry to post for a second time on this issue, but I thought I should express myself further. I had not gone over the fold and read the opening post of MB the first time. Now that I did, I have been noodling on it a bit more. MB makes specific reference to "letter writing" as being verboten as of now. As I recall I was the one that had posted on that. So I take that personally.

I made a suggestion that customers should not be bashful about communicating with the companies that take their money. That goes for every company you buy from. The deli guy selling sandwiches, the car maker or the gun manufacturer. I spelled out how and what to communicate. I made sure to add that these be "professional and polite". Vulgar or crude remarks in a business context are never appropriate. Obviously that struck too close to the heart. But there is a social contract between these two players, seller and buyer. Violation of that contract should not be tolerated. In my personal experience I have run very large enterprises. I have told my salesman in no uncertain terms that the customer is king. No ifs, ands, or buts. They could afford the BMWs only because of that guy on the other side of the table.

One of the problems with the Internet in general is the ability to create illusion. The teenager that pretends to be older. The man who lurks as a woman. The provocateur that stirs the pot. The advertisement that seems to be objective. I had thought that this forum, that DR in general was objective. Here is where in my eyes it gets a little dicey. You see, some of the discussion literally involves life and death. What type of gun for defense? What type of ammo may save your life? Who can provide training of a quality to be respected? This is not trivial. The life of  my family and myself, potential blood on the floor, are at stake. I read MB for this kind of information.

The new rules I believe exposes something that brings all this in question. If companies in fact run DR (as I see this change clearly indicating) what am I actually reading and viewing here? All of this now is suspect. Geeze I am so disappointed.

I still cling to the thought that Marshal and wife and yes MB are good folk. I humbly suggest that the companies that may have forced your hand are oh so wrong. So shortsighted. Rather than come out and simply post a reply inviting (yes inviting) communication they have attempted to stifle it. Rather than improving dialog with their customers they have devalued it. Rather than building respect for their executives and management they have undermined it. I will give them my gratis advice from several decades of selling. Instead of not engaging in discussion, the respect factor would have simply gone off the chart if the execs had posted a direct reply on this forum. Like ole Bill Clinton, you don’t get in trouble for the act. You get in trouble for hiding from it and lying.

Since I joined this forum over a year and a half ago I have enjoyed the thousands of posts and discussions I've read and to a small part that I participated in. As others have said, I have found the folks here are truly different from numerous other forums. But I wouldn’t be true to myself and my own standards if I didn’t do something appropriate to this situation. I honestly can’t see myself participating any longer in something which seems to be something different from what I had thought it was. As I said I truly respect and value the folks that the members are. So I wish you all good bye. Or as BHO would say “au revoir”.

Dammit I am totally bummed out.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ismram on September 08, 2008, 10:51:57 AM
I was out of town for a few weeks and BAM! What the heck did I miss? ???
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: DesertMarine on September 08, 2008, 11:19:03 AM
Right on Rebel.  The comments that I have seen, criticize but are given in honest opinions.  If the sponsors would take that information and use us a unpaid advisors they would have a wealth of information on how to improve their products.  As for Micheal Bane and Marshal, I have no problem with their positions.  As it has been pointed out, if the sponsors would have offered information to their customers as to what was happening and what they were doing to correct problems, the majority of contributors to these forums would have understood and learned.  Prime example is the SR9 discussions.  There were plenty of instances where information was given but never any feedback from Ruger as to what they were doing to correct the situation.  If need be, the comments could be tailored differently but like Rebel said, when it comes down to a possible life and death situation with a questionable firearms, are we supposed to be nice and not bruise egos, don't think so.  It is up to us to tell the truth and the manufacturer if they care and the truth hurts, correct the problem. 

This is one of two sites that I participate in by choice.  First, I like firearms and shooting.  I also like the caliber of people that contribute, we all think differently and have different opinions as to how things should be or be corrected and are willing to share without insulting each other.   If my remarks offend sponsors, I'll join Rebel.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 11:37:09 AM
Can we get one of those happy, funky, and ever so neat M'ette posts?   ;D
-Bidah

Marshalette's funky posts?? Damn, I didn't know I was so highly thought of.. ;D ;D.

*Just a warning..... I dont really think that I can control myself when talking about those loony Democrats and the direction that they want to take our great nation, so you may want to ban me completely from commenting in the politics section of the forum. ;D


Well guess what ericire12.. this "loony and funky" blond can't help myself either.
This politics junkie is going down the crapper if that is the case.  ;D

Like Marshal and I stated in our joint post ( and yeeessss I did have a hand in that.)  you all honestly didn't think he writes that good did you??  ;)  Phhhffftt... come on.. The roosters may rule the roost in this place.. but Da Blond rules the roosters.   ;)
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/143.gif)

Seriously guys... neither Marshal or Michael or myself want or expect you all to watch every word you say about any company's products. After all.. they make them and they should stand up and be accountable for them too. I don't care what company it is. I could have added my 2 cents in that thread too. 
But there is constructive criticism and then there is  down right throwing mud and enticing a riot type of postings too.. LOL
And believe me.. all 3 of the M's on this side of the gate have been guilty of that too at one time or another, so no one is exempt on having to check themselves on this matter.
 Does that excuse us or make it justified? No.
 BUT...................................
I  have been in retail all of my life. I was...with my ex husband.....a partner and  ..... the owner.. operator bookkeeper and janitor of a True Value Hardware store) so I have been taught all of my life,and I am a firm believer that the customer is ALWAYS right.. ( even if sometimes they are not ). In these cases I think you had every right to be upset and I agreed totally with whoever said..I ( can't remember who it was now..) that you all should write letters directly to the companies in a nice and constructive way. Communication in any form is better than none. Unfortunately 9 times out of 10 you hear nothing back.. which of course leads to the frustrations and anger that you felt.. that all of us feel when that happens.

I understand how "lack of communication" in any area..whether it be from a company you have bought a product from.. or from people you work with, or to and from your family who sits across the dinner table with you at night, ... Lack of discussing, talking and sharing information that you have received is the biggest breakdown of any relationship on any level.  So for that , I will give you my sincere apologies for not calling these companies more and trying to work more "for you" in this area.. Getting some answers for you. Hell .. ANY fricken' communication of any kind is better than nothing.  I'm sorry. I will try to monitor more directly on some of the boards that I don't frequent a lot, so that this type of thing could maybe be resolved  ( at least with communication)  before it hits the "I'm so frustrated and pissed off """ I want to start shooting""" mentality takes hold.

ellis4538 .. you said it as good as anyone. It IS frustrating as a consumer to spend money or anticipate doing so only to have to wait, and wait, and wait!!!  It is also frustrating to have contacted a company or companies and not receive any kind of response whatsoever.
( And trust me .. Marshal and I have been there many many times.  ;) ) That is why he and I are usually so darn quick to try to make contact, get things out in the open, find solutions and  try to resolve things by communications. ( God didn't give us a mouth to just use for eating you know..........  Haz...SHUT UP!!  :-X )
I feel that we dropped the ball on this one. Once again.. my apologies for not communicating with you more on this.
 We knew that Ruger was working very diligently on trying to remedy the problem. Because of your input.. no matter the way it was presented, they have taken the comments and criticism seriously.  Unfortunately in most corporate systems, you have to go through a chain of command, to be able to get a statement directed out to the public. Even though they want to ride the same day they saddle the horse..they can't.  Our fault for NOT letting you know that they had heard..and that they were working on it. I'm sorry.

So we appreciate all of your input. None of you need to apologize for voicing your opinions. You have legitimate gripes. ..  even if some of them got over the top.. they would never have gotten to that point if "communication" had been present in the first place.. I also want you to know that Marshal and I are working on finding a better, more direct and effective way of communication with companies instead of letting the forum become a town hall meeting without the major there. Kinda like signing to the choir ..and I have been there more times that not.

Hang in there with us.. I  still say the Down Range members are a huge step above all the other members in other forums out there.  Please don't think that anything that we or MB has posted is a direct hit on anyone personally. it isn't.

Now if I could just get in Obama's face and make him answer to me................................................ ;)

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/BulletWitch-16.jpg)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 12:34:25 PM
While I was working on my last response ( between phone calls and trying to answer direct e-mails..) I see where 1776 Rebel and DessertMarine have posted. Instead of going back into my lengthy post, I will answer and comment on them now. 

I agree 100% with both of you. I can't find fault at all with what you said..and I would feel and say ( like I did in my post) basically the same thing. Lack of communication is something that I absolutely cannot tolerate. On any level. So.. yeah.. you are more than justified in your response. 

Rebel..  when you said "The new rules I believe exposes something that brings all this in question. If companies in fact run DR (as I see this change clearly indicating) what am I actually reading and viewing here? All of this now is suspect. "


Please.. do not 'suspect' anything.
The companies in question do not "run us".
 No one "runs us" except....."us".
 
 I can see where by the way MB worded his post, it would seem that way.
( Another validation that the way we talk on the internet..is not necessarily the way it would come out if that person was talking directly. Michael is a pretty much blunt ..to the point.. writer.. Reading his daily blog is proof of that.  ;D and that is why his blog and podcasts are so popular. )
 But I can assure you that his posts and our posts that followed was in general..and not directed at you, Rebel or anyone else in particular on this forum.

While the companies... sponsors or no sponsors... were working on going through the problems in question, they also had to deal with responses from the internet community that had no actual say in the matter. The focus went from dealing with actual problems to dealing with a general complaint when non customers also chimed in without even knowing what this was all about. Again, this is the negative power of the Internet and we had to take the responsibility to do what we did. Take off something that was actual legitimate complaints because it had turned into a negative campaign that moved from forum to forum without "us" ( not our sponsors) having any control over it.

We also understand that forums are a good place to air frustrations, but when the frustration turns into a mob and a hanging party, the good communication stops and both sides turn aggressive in a nasty way.
 ( man oh man have I taken the drivers seat in this area before.. :-[ )

  We.. in the middle.. have to deal with all of that the best way we think is possible.
The sponsors did not make us do this.
 The Triple M's ( that'd be us) made the decision to take the posts off so we and those actually involved could get focused on the actualities including customer support. We were starting to have so many phone calls and nasty e-mails about it that the "good complaints" were being drowned out by the name calling and mud slinging. 

So rest assured..that the only one pulling our handles are "us".

I really really really do hope that those of you who are thinking of pulling out of Down Range reconsider.  We value your input and your honesty as I hope you value ours.


 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ellis4538 on September 08, 2008, 12:43:04 PM
1776 rebel, I have read your post and understand completely your disappointment.  I have had similar thoughts about the "Tail wagging the dog" and have experienced it a lot.  My chioce is to stay and try to work from within to help change 'the way it is".  I am sorry to see you go - if that is your chosen path (and the same goes for others who might follow).

Richard
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: kmitch200 on September 08, 2008, 02:22:02 PM
So a gun company comes out with a bad gun.
I don't mean a badly forged/cast/assembled gun that slipped through the Quality Control cracks, I'm talking a real turd of a design.

Not your run of the mill turd but I mean a REAL smelly, corn studded, steaming pile of scat that would make a large bovine proud.

We can't mention it? We can't call a spade a spade?

When does "critique products in an informational way" end and bashing/riot inducing start? 
Is it like Justice Stewarts: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it?"

I think I almost understand the position taken but that doesn't mean I'm in total agreement with it either.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 03:02:53 PM
hahahaha...  ;D
 Dammit kmitch... Just when I thought I had covered all the corners.. you have to jump in here and ask me that!
 Welll.. ......... hmmmm..
 When is a turd not a turd.. ?
I am not going to just vote "present " on this one..   ;)

 Let me think about it for a little bit so I can answer you with a little intelligence..

Be back in a bit. ..
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 03:30:59 PM
You can call a spade a spade and a turd a turd. But that doesn't mean we should organize a boycott against everything made by Brand X who made the big steaming pile of dung. IMO that's overreacting and it's just plain wrong, and I can see why that type of thread is deleted. It happens at the expense of losing good information too and it's a shame to lose the good with the bad. Gun owners who have a legitimate gripe should complain to the company and demand satisfaction. Calling for a boycott by everyone else is the kind of extremist attitude I expect from our political enemies but not from us. I try to be open minded and try to see other peoples points of view. Not always sucessfully. I don't like everything I read. No one does. I sometimes get people p*ssed by things I say too. It happens. I know I stepped on one person's toes in particular and am sorry I said it the way I did, but people can only whine so long before it gets old. I may have just gotten some people mad again by saying that but it's how I feel. If you have a problem with a gun tell us what it is. If anyone finds a solution - great. If not we don't need constant reminders that a turd is still a turd. Yeah, it stinks, but it's not really productive to say it 100 times. We know it does. We each have a choice to read a thread or not, and then ignore it or respond to it. All opinions are valid but mudslinging isn't. I'm glad that it hasn't devolved into a bunch of name calling and personal attacks like some other forums. Those forums weren't as well moderated and spiralled out of control. It seems to start out with "that sucks" and ends up with "you suck" or a bunch of other crap that no one else wants to read. I appreciate the hard work that the 3 Ms are doing here. This is the only firearms forum I visit and I like it here, whether any threads get deleted or not. I really hope no one leaves because of what they percieve as excessive censorship. We need you here. The anti-gunners are the enemy and we all need to stand together. My thanks to all for a great forum and lively discussions. I feel priveliged to be a small part of it.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ncwolf on September 08, 2008, 03:41:32 PM
Thanks for the Info, such info I would think that you would not have be  to posted  but sometimes it is necessary. Will try my best to follow new rules.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 03:45:48 PM
So a gun company comes out with a bad gun.
I don't mean a badly forged/cast/assembled gun that slipped through the Quality Control cracks, I'm talking a real turd of a design.

Not your run of the mill turd but I mean a REAL smelly, corn studded, steaming pile of scat that would make a large bovine proud.

We can't mention it? We can't call a spade a spade?

When does "critique products in an informational way" end and bashing/riot inducing start? 
Is it like Justice Stewarts: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it?"

I think I almost understand the position taken but that doesn't mean I'm in total agreement with it either.




Okay.. Even though most of you have never met me face to face.. the ones that have, know that I type just like I talk..just a plain ole girl with plain old fashionable language skills...bottom line?? Just blurt out exactly what you're thinking and go from there. All that's missing is the hand gestures and the weird expressions I make.
 
 Soooooooooooo.. after my last post, I whirled around in my office chair.. turned to Marshal and I said..
 " Okay.. when IS a Turd not a Turd? 
I'm stumped! What the hell do I say? I mean.. ..They don't realize that they're asking ""me"" ....the most outspoken, wild, off the cuff, quick on the trigger person in the group. ( next to Michael of course.... ;) ;D ) a question about how far is too far. "
" How do I say it is just common sense and kinda knowing when too much is too much..when half the time I have to double check myself in this area?"

He got himself a cup of strong  "stand your spoon up in the cup" of coffee and said this...


As we have tried to explain before, that the actual criticism is not the problem. That when you state your opinion based on personal experience on a public forum, the Internet as a medium, sometimes becomes the ground for followers who chime in without an actual experience of their own.
 It is like the small town syndrome when one person explains a problem at one end of the town. The day after all the citizens have chimed in either publicly or one on one and the actual problem has become bigger than life and we start hating this or that. When someone asks about how this all got started, most (not all) the people don't have the answer or cannot remember....other than they are pissed off as hell and they hate whatever the subject at hand was.
  But dang it was good to blow the whistle.
 
For us trying to be a level medium to solve it communication wise, we have to deal with and sort out all the extra noise that comes along with it. .. so in the long run it all comes down to common sense.

To explain it in any other way is like trying to drive an already driven nail into the board even further.   

 
So.. I didn't vote "Present" on this.. but I did have help from my Vise President..
errrr..ahhhh... President.. yea yeah.. President....
I meant to say President.. yeah.. I ask my President.... ::)

**looking at Marshal and blowing him a kiss**
:-*
(((whew... (http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/heat-2.gif) 'bout got caught on that one.)))
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: mosbear on September 08, 2008, 04:02:33 PM
Civility in any discussion, specially the heated one, is a must. Conformance on the other hand is not.
Unfortunately in the era of the ever-searchable World Wide Web any bad post will stick out and be out for a long time. The genie is out of the bottle, and all of us have to leave with this reality in mind.
Gun owners be mindful of the consequences of what you about to say / post, as for the Gun manufacturers / Sponsors - get better Customer Liaisons and PR teams who can facilitate the damage.

For MMMs - with all due respect  :P  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Michael Bane on September 08, 2008, 04:07:22 PM
Kmitch...I think you're getting somewhere...IMHO, the answer to your question is Zen-ish — "when is a turd, in fact, a turd?" I personally don't care for Glocks...never shot 'em worth a crap...don't like the trigger...don't like the sights...don't like the grip angle. But does that make a Glock a turd, or does it make it just a gun Michael doesn't like? OTOH, I love Walther P-38s, with their Rube Goldberg crappy DA triggers, their pissy little sights and their quirky pointability. Does the fact that I like them make them Not-A-Turd?

I own an expensive 3-inch Kimber 1911 that broke three firing pins in a row, bing, bing, bing...the only way to get it to stop breaking firing pins was to scrap the firing pin safety, do a complete overhaul (by Wayne Novak) and go to a titanium firing pin to make the gun drop safe. I like the gun just fine, but I wouldn't carry it for personal defense on a bet. Now, does that make all Kimbers turds, or all 3-inch Kimbers turds, or all short 1911s turds, or what exactly?

I have a Belgium Browning Hi-Power, considered one of the finest production handguns ever made. The rear sight shot off. Does that make it a turd? Does the fact that virtually every Colt Gold Cup will eventually snap the roll pin that holds the rear sight in place and launch the sight into the heavens — something that has been common knowledge for decades — make Colt Gold Cups turds? Does the fact that early Mini 14s could be expected to shoot into 4 inches at 100 yards rather than MOA make them turds? Does it matter that the guns — dirt cheap compared to ARs back then — did exactly what they were designed to do, what Ruger said they would do and what the majority of users expected them to do? I carry a Para Carry 9 LDA...does the fact that the LDA trigger clicks twice going back to reset — which makes it damn near impossible for a person trained to "ride" the trigger back to reset to shoot without retraining —
 make the LDA system a turd? Lots of people say so. Does it then matter that Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett and the great Bill Rogers, head of the Rogers Shooting School, say that riding the trigger to reset is a mistake and a competition affectation? Does that make Rob, Todd and Bill Turds-By-Association because they refuse to acknowledge such a glaring "flaw" in a trigger system? I've been called a sell-out because I refused to agree with an "expert" on that very subject.

Is a gun a turd because it is less accurate than another gun? An average AK-47 is substantially less accurate than an average AR-15. Is the AK-47 a turd? Does Michail Kalashnikov know? My Wilson Master Grade competition pistol has more than 200,000 rounds of .45 through it and it still shoots better than me. If I put 200,000 rounds of ball ammo through a Ruger LCP, it would probably fall apart in my hands...does that make the LCP a turd? Most HK battle rifles are notoriously hard on brass, in some cases making the brass either impossible to reload or cutting drastically its working life...are HK rifles turds because of that?

Is a gun a turd because you can't shoot it well? Is a gun a turd because you don't like the way it feels in your hand? Is a S&W 3rd-gen semi a turd because it feels small in your hands? A Desert Eagle a turd because it feels large in your hands? Is a Taurus revolver a turd because it doesn't have the same fit and finish as an S&W revolver, even though it costs half of the Smith? Is a modern S&W revolver a turd because it doesn't have the fit and finish of a pre-War Smith even though it costs twice as much? Is a $400 service pistol a turd because it won't shoot groups like a $3800 Nighthawk Custom? Is a Nighthawk Custom a turd because it took 200 rounds to break it in and your Springfield XD was 100% right out of the box? Are all Springfield XDs turds because your broke an extractor at 500 rounds?

If one of anything fails, does that make all the copies of that anything a turd? Because if that's the case, every single gun in the world is a turd. All machines fail. Humans build them, and we're still struggling on that perfection thing.

I will continue giving you my opinions, which — although I am quite fond of them — fall somewhat short of omniscience. I will also do my best to tell you what my biases are, because that's the only way you can use my information to make your own decisions.

And I strongly urge you to remember those stirring words from Cartman on a classic SOUTH PARK:

Vote for Turd Sandwich.
This is the most important election of our lives.
Turd Sandwich brings us hope for change.
A vote for Turd Sandwich is a Vote for Tomorrow!
Michael B



Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: kmitch200 on September 08, 2008, 04:44:50 PM
Never in my life would I have dreamed that:

1. I could render M'Ette speechless. (albeit temporarily)

2. I could get Michael Bane to post on the  Zen of a Turd.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mom would be so proud!! 

My post was more devils disciple advocate than anything else. I've slung a bit o' mud myself so I was part of the problem. Sorry.
I missed the posts that called for boycotts, burning in effigy, etc., and I'm glad I did.

So...as long as the posts are factual, real and genuinely in search of an answer to a problem, we're pretty much on the same page?
Geez, what are you guys trying to do? Make common sense common?  8)


on edit:  I agree wholeheartedly with JumboFrank - "I really hope no one leaves because of what they perceive as excessive censorship." 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: twyacht on September 08, 2008, 04:45:29 PM
IMHO, I have always respected and appreciated the "higher standard" the DRTV Admins.,  and members have treated me with, and my quest to learn all I can about an important aspect of my life.  I have seen first hand the denigrating, demeaning, and down right insulting nature of other forums; if I don't like this, or don't try that, or I don't know how to adjust the internal workings of a particular pistol, I must be a loser, "Mine is bigger than yours type thing".....

Fortunately, not all are like that. But DRTV forum is "the" one for me. If I have a question, concern, "issue", problem, or downright want to just vent, I have a place here to do so, without being "slammed". For that I'm thankful to all.

I have had a couple of "consumer issues" with my firearms, I post, get advice,have my rant, make my decision, and goto the manufacturer/dealer directly to resolve it, and become a "thorn in their" side, until its resolved. My cracked barrel on my $1200.00 rifle, was not warranty,(squib), and I had to pay for the replacement. But it was cheaper than the retail cost of a barrel, and I didn't even get a hat. :P, But Alas, it was fixed.

I too, apologize if I "fanned" the flames regarding a post, it was never my intention to "bash" a manufacturer,  just advocate a growing number of consumer complaints that were not getting anywhere. Good Luck to those seeking a resolution.

And MB, you are correct in you "Zen-ish" answer. Fantastic and eloquent way to sum it all up.

OBTW, my decocker on my Walther PPK/S is too stiff, and not loosening up, any advice? ;D

P.S. ncwolf, I'm right across the river from you, good to see another "local". Welcome.








Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 04:55:16 PM
(http://th202.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/coppier/Laughing/th_Laughing_Chimp.gif)

Well,, you all have the skinny now!
 The KING himself has finally cleared up the age old question...
 What exactly IS a Turd?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Fatman on September 08, 2008, 04:56:57 PM
Is a gun a turd because you can't shoot it well?

I had a Belgium Browning Hi-Power that I couldn't shoot worth a damn. I sold it; my turd is now someone else' filet mignon.  ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Michael Bane on September 08, 2008, 05:20:21 PM
Yeah, we're on the same page...thanks for the OPPORTUNITY to wrote on the Zen of a turd...I feel so Cartman-ish...

Michael B
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: MikeBjerum on September 08, 2008, 05:24:40 PM
twyacht hit on something with his comments about how we get along on here.  We are suffering growing pains.  For quite a while this has been a small growing group, and we were doing quite well at understanding each other's comments.  However, with quality has come growth, and with growth has come misunderstandings and more people checking in on what we are up to.  Just recently there was a situation where we got going on terminology with someone that did not take it too well.  Oooooops ... I was a part of that one myself :-[

I believe that most of us understand each other and that an occasional explosion is just venting.  However, with a larger group a brief vent turns into a hate session that goes on and on and on.  And sooner or later we do hurt someone's feelings.

I think that with common sense we can all speak our piece and still not offend the folk that are paying for our playground.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 05:25:07 PM
I had to wear my Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Glasses to read that last MB post.  8)

Yellow journalism?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: brosometal on September 08, 2008, 05:47:49 PM
Kmitch...I think you're getting somewhere...IMHO, the answer to your question is Zen-ish — "when is a turd, in fact, a turd?"...

 
...I will continue giving you my opinions, which — although I am quite fond of them — fall somewhat short of omniscience. I will also do my best to tell you what my biases are, because that's the only way you can use my information to make your own decisions.

And I strongly urge you to remember those stirring words from Cartman on a classic SOUTH PARK:

Vote for Turd Sandwich.
This is the most important election of our lives.
Turd Sandwich brings us hope for change.
A vote for Turd Sandwich is a Vote for Tomorrow!
Michael B





This is one of the main reasons I decided to hop on board here: A serious subject, cleverly and humorously delt with clearly.

Mr. Bane, I believe the nuts here don't fall far from the tree.
Thanx
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 08, 2008, 05:52:34 PM

(http://www.mazeguy.net/romantic/hug.gif) (http://www.mazeguy.net/romantic/hug.gif) (http://www.mazeguy.net/romantic/hug.gif) (http://www.mazeguy.net/romantic/hug.gif) (http://www.mazeguy.net/romantic/hug.gif)

(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-010.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-010.gif)

(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif)  (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-018.gif) (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif)

Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: TSB on September 08, 2008, 05:55:09 PM
I'm a new guy around here and I just want to say how refreshing it is to read the comments, suggestions and the diatribe that is prevelant on these pages.  Thanks to the administration of DRTV for making that possible.  

I have been LMAO for quite a few days over some of the threads posted and will continue to frequent these pages in hopes of furthering my knowledge base and enjoying the banter that exists between folks with a common interest.  I too can get a little overheated in my opinions and must re-read my posts to make sure I don't cross the line too far.

Keep it up but remember, sometimes humor is very difficult to translate into coherant sentences.  It can, and will be misconstrued by some people as other than what was intended.  

Just my 2 cents (or 100,000,000 Icelandic kronur!)

Tim
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 08, 2008, 06:43:35 PM
Group hug!!!
No, really...group hug!!!
(Haz....Kum ba Ya? ARRGGGHHH!)

If I can't shoot a particular gun (WHICH SHALL REMAIN NAMELESS!!!) does it make ME a turd since other people CAN shoot the gun? Or maybe a douche...I've been accused of being both. Or I could be a douche bag that is incompatible with certain turds...this is such a deep subject.

If you think you have a turd try polishing it...you CAN'T polish a turd.

On a positive note I may be advertising here soon because I think I may have invented a polish that will actually work on a turd and make it shiny. That will be a revolution in almost every aspect of american life, especially politics.

I kinda don't know what to do with myself since I've lost my favorite whine-and-cheese subject...but I'll eventually move on intellectually, and I'm not going anywhere "forum-wise". Since everyone is doing it, to quote Eric Cartman, one thing you will never hear from me here is, "Screw you guys,  Iaam goin' home".

A turd by any other name will smell as sweet.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 06:58:34 PM
Was that a S***speare quote?  ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: unique on September 08, 2008, 07:22:57 PM
I really hate it when I'm on the other side of the river from everyone else, but I think M&M handled this poorly.
Had they stepped in and posted on the specific topic it would have been better, or posted and locked it, but removing it was wrong.
I had read some of the posts, but apparently missed the terrible ones, I'll never know now since they're gone.
Also gone for me is something else, I don't know what to call it but it's lost.
MB's "turd' post, while apparently appreciated by some was not by me, just smoke and mirrors BS.
Like Rebel, I thought of leaving permanently, of course it wouldn't do any good or change anything.
I am going to leave for awhile, I just don't think I can stand to read another 3M post.  Like I said, something has changed for me.
I'll come back later in the winter and see if my attitude has changed, but for now, goodbye.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: twyacht on September 08, 2008, 07:33:11 PM
All right Haz, in true Kum By Ya spirit,.....  am forced to remind those that "Rage Against The Machine"

As only he can,....


Now that's out of my system,.... I love life and all of you,,,peace out..... :o
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rob10ring on September 08, 2008, 08:14:41 PM
I see that a lot of people don't think this is any big deal and it really isn't. Some people may have had some gripes and it seems that even they can let those go. It kind of seemed like those gripes were all in fun, but I think we can all see how someone on the outside might not.

A few people seem so offended, as if their freedom of speech has been stomped, but while this may seem like kind of a public place, it is someone else's house (domain) and he should be able to set some rules. I'm a little unclear about when something has become a rant, but when I understand it, I'll abide by it in MB's house.

By the way, there was a thread where some of us discussed organizing peaceful rallies at our state capitols. Does that fall under the call to action rule? While I don't want to push the limits of someone else's "house" rules, I probably would want to put a little heat on our legislatures.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 08:23:21 PM
All right Haz, in true Kum By Ya spirit,.....  am forced to remind those that "Rage Against The Machine"

As only he can,....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-SuRXwK5o
Now that's out of my system,.... I love life and all of you,,,peace out..... :o

I was expecting to see something from the band "Rage Against The Machine". DO NOT watch all the way to the end if the "F word" offends you. I find this more tolerable than listenening to Kumbaya. At least it's English.

 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Ksail101 on September 08, 2008, 08:26:18 PM
Way to go Jaybethel its all your fault. LOL ;D

You and your paperweight caused all this. Next time PM me and we can talk bad behind everyone's back.

That way it is more mature and things can go on being screwed up with something or someone we care about instead of giving them the criticism they may need to get better.

Alot of people in Seattle like to act this way, and I bet we can all guess who they will vote for too.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rob10ring on September 08, 2008, 08:38:05 PM
I was expecting to see something from the band "Rage Against The Machine". DO NOT watch all the way to the end if the "F word" offends you. I find this more tolerable than listenening to Kumbaya. At least it's English. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY
I too was expecting to see Rage Against the Machine. In my early days of junior college, I hung out in a group of friends that included Zach from RATM (pre-rage). He was a guitar player back then and not quite so angry. He did however go out and get a tattoo of Martin Luther King Jr. that we teased him for, because it looked like Sherman Hemsley of the Jeffersons. Funny how we take different paths. I was one of only 2 people in that group who could be considered conservative.

About the rules… can I still complain about California's gun laws?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 08, 2008, 08:45:43 PM
I was expecting to see something from the band "Rage Against The Machine". DO NOT watch all the way to the end if the "F word" offends you. I find this more tolerable than listenening to Kumbaya. At least it's English. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY

Are you sure? (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tumblebug on September 08, 2008, 08:59:41 PM
I suggest a new ZOMBIE hunt. What do you think? 44's or bigger only, or can the pee wee's play too ?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 08, 2008, 09:10:26 PM
Are you sure? (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)

99% sure it is English. There are a couple of words I can't quite make out. But I'm 100% sure Kumbaya is NOT English. I think it's a Creole dilect called Gullah which I don't speak or understand at all. Tonight I think I finally know what that word means for the first time in my life. Does anyone here speak Geechee?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: twyacht on September 08, 2008, 09:13:56 PM
Rally round the family,...... with a pocket full of,....well those that know,,,,,,,,,know... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 08, 2008, 09:26:44 PM
I suggest a new ZOMBIE hunt. What do you think? 44's or bigger only, or can the pee wee's play too ?

I think we should let the 'pee wee's' play, too.  I for one, have always liked those little 44s.  ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on September 08, 2008, 09:34:51 PM
Fuzdaddy....and everyone...

Do whatever you have been doing.. Organize whatever you want..
Critique whatever you want.. talk about whatever you want.
Things really haven't changed from what they have always been..
The rules have always been there.. it's just now they have been read by everyone.
No big deal.
I'm still going to vent ..and bitch a bit..and throw out some unlady like terms..and in general..
continue to be the pain in the ass I usually am.. ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Fatman on September 08, 2008, 09:43:30 PM
99% sure it is English. There are a couple of words I can't quite make out. But I'm 100% sure Kumbaya is NOT English. I think it's a Creole dilect called Gullah which I don't speak or understand at all. Tonight I think I finally know what that word means for the first time in my life. Does anyone here speak Geechee?

Quote
"Kumbaya" (also spelled Kum Ba Yah) is a spiritual song from the 1930s. It enjoyed newfound popularity during the folk revival of the 1960s and became a standard campfire song in Scouting and other camping organizations.

Wikpediai quote, emphasis mine:

The song was originally associated with unity and closeness, but more recently is also alluded to sarcastically to connote a blandly pious and naively optimistic view of the world and human nature.[

It is Gullah for 'Come by here'.  I don't even want to Hazcat a guess how you knew that, jumbofrank.  

Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ericire12 on September 08, 2008, 09:48:15 PM
I think the moral of the story here is this:

Dont rant in the forums, rant in the chat rooms where nothing can be tied back to you or this site.


Marshal-

Maybe we need a new chat room

    *  DRTV Cafe Chat
    * Handguns
    * Tactical Rifle
    * Ranting and product bashing


Jokes people. Jokes. ;D

Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: CJS3 on September 08, 2008, 10:01:05 PM
I'd get on the chat room but I can't get the damn thing to work (plus I don't type fast enough).
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 08, 2008, 10:43:06 PM
You're right Ksail it's my fault because I even though I was actually starting to just enjoy clever ways of busting on the "Big R" I was still unhappy with my purchase and just didn't consider what else might be going on.

Perhaps one difference between MB and myself is that he gets to try everything and owns a lot of stuff and a lot of it gets jazzed up by top shelf gunsmiths, etc. The pistol that sunk an thousand ships here represents a sizeable percentage of my miniscule collection of basically stock merchandise, and so it was pretty upsetting to have one of them on the turd list. I mean, I got that for my birthday!

So I'm all better now, sort of. I'm working on that turd polish I mentioned and some other projects, and if you ever need to rant I volunteer to accept any of your rants that need releasing.

As a group we are finding ourselves on two ends of a situation, and we just have to work it out.
By the way, I've been working on the paperweight a little and I think I might be on to something with a mechanical therapy technique I'm trying. Yesterday I went to the range (evidently when all this crap was expoding) and I threw 10 rounds with my hand, then fired ten through the paperweight and actually did BETTER with the paperweight. When I have confirmed my method I'll post it in case anyone else still wants to give it another crack.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 09, 2008, 01:32:02 AM
Yeah, we're on the same page...thanks for the OPPORTUNITY to wrote on the Zen of a turd...I feel so Cartman-ish...

Michael B

Michael, Yellow may work on your AR, it doesn't work on a white background    ;D  I had to quote it to get it in a color combo I could see   ;D  Considering the subject I'm surprised you did not use brown. But you never really answered the question. In the context of Kmitch's question if a company makes a sledge hammer out of non tempered glass, yes, that is a turd, if a gun company makes a gun that CONSISTENTLY fails to function properly like the reputation of a certain companies .22 skeeter, then that is a turd.
The important wording is CONSISTENTLY FAILS TO FUNCTION PROPERLY If the Grip, Magazine, slide, trigger and sights fail to work properly only a fool would trust the safety.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 09, 2008, 02:00:33 AM
It is Gullah for 'Come by here'.  I don't even want to Hazcat a guess how you knew that, jumbofrank.  



TWYacht and NCWolf, You should be ashamed of yourself s as "Gullah" comes from the Coastal Carolina area, JUST LIKE YOU, but it took a guy from PENNSYLVANIA to come up with this.  ;D  (Wouldn't have had a clue what he was talking about if my son hadn't watched "Gullah Gullah Island back in the 90's  ;D)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 09, 2008, 03:22:27 AM
It is Gullah for 'Come by here'.  I don't even want to Hazcat a guess how you knew that, jumbofrank.  



Hazcat a guess.  ;D  I almost missed that. I could just say IT'S A MYSTERY. Or I'm really smart.  ::)  Or after I said it wasn't English I looked at a few pages online and one was the wiki you mentioned. It said it's Carribean-African Pidgin English or something like that. HUH??? Gulla? Gulluh? Creole? GeeChee? I wasn't sure I had that right in the other post. It sounds like it could be a couple of different things. The only thing I knew was that it wasn't English, but for decades didn't know what language it was or what it meant. No one I ever asked knew either, no matter how many times they sang it. This is the first time I came across it since I've had a computer so I searched and tada, there it was.

Which brings up an unrelated subject. I was in the doctor's office last week and there was a calander from Cialis on the wall and it had the generic name on it too. So here's this hardon pill and the actual name of it... this is SOOOO funny... are you ready for this... if you're eating or drinking please swallow before reading the rest... you'll thank me later... the first 4 letters are... TADA!!! It causes erections for 36 hours. TADA!!! When I left his office I talked to a couple of pharmacists about it, did the "magic trick" hand gestures and everything, and we all cracked up. Did they pick a great name for that product or what? I can picture a guy waliking into the bedroom showing his wife. TADA!!!  ;D Look what I can do! TADA!!!
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 09, 2008, 03:32:48 AM
Ml'ette
You can do whatever you want as long as you don't chew tobacco and spit. That's just not ladylike.

JB
I didn't know you got a turd for your bithday. That makes things different. That never even happened to Charlie Brown or Rodney Dangerfield. Please accept my apology for my comment the other day. I didn't know. And no I don't want to take it off your hands. That goes for other peoples turds too. No thanks.

Tom
I never saw Gullah Gullah Island but thought it was as real as Seasame Street. Was the show about one of those real islands?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 09, 2008, 06:23:40 AM
It is Gullah for 'Come by here'.  I don't even want to Hazcat a guess how you knew that, jumbofrank.  



I feel sooooo abused! (http://www.mazeguy.net/sad/melodramatic.gif)












;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Cthulhu on September 09, 2008, 07:46:14 AM
To me, there is a difference between rationally conveying a problem with a product, such as what I did with my striker breaking, and beating a dead horse into the ground, burying it, exhuming it, and then beating it all over again, which is what others had done.

-JT
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 09, 2008, 07:52:46 AM
To me, there is a difference between rationally conveying a problem with a product, such as what I did with my striker breaking, and beating a dead horse into the ground, burying it, exhuming it, and then beating it all over again, which is what others had done.

-JT

+1  Was that the post with the picture of the striker? I can't find that thread anymore. I wanted to see what the explanation was for it breaking.

Frank
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 09, 2008, 09:08:47 AM
To me, there is a difference between rationally conveying a problem with a product, such as what I did with my striker breaking, and beating a dead horse into the ground, burying it, exhuming it, and then beating it all over again, which is what others had done.

-JT
You might want to PM MB on that...he was interested in whether or not the problem was resolved.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Cthulhu on September 09, 2008, 09:20:37 AM
+1  Was that the post with the picture of the striker? I can't find that thread anymore. I wanted to see what the explanation was for it breaking.

Frank

I posted an update, but the thread got killed.

Ruger did overnight me a new striker, but because I had to wait for a supervisor to call back and hear the issue before authorizing that shipping method, I had to wait an additional day, as UPS already stopped by the plant.  There was another issue where the person who typed the UPS label misread the handwriting on the invoice, so there was another day delay from that.

The replacement striker looked a little like it came out of another gun.  I can understand reusing parts from guns that had other defects, so that's not that big a deal with me.  The heft was no different than the part that broke.  After installing the replacement and dryfiring with snap caps, the trigger pull did feel noticeably lighter to me.  It actually felt like a striker that had already been broken in.

Just to be sure, during the course of that weekend, I dryfired the gun several hundred times...near 1000.  After every hundred trigger pulls or so, I'd remove the striker and examine it for any obvious stress or deformation.  None was noted.  I finally managed to get it to the range this past Sunday to send some rounds downrange.  It was a short session, only putting about 60 rounds downrange at a plate rack.  I didn't shoot a paper target, so I couldn't really determine accuracy, but my performance on the plate rack indicates that there appears to be no noticeable change in accuracy (my slide was replaced during the trigger recall work).  No failures of any kind.  Gun went "bang" every time I pulled the trigger, and ONLY when I pulled the trigger.

The trigger blade safety did not bother me at all, and I really thought it would.  I pretty much didn't notice it at all.  When cleaning the gun later that day, I inspected the striker once more, and there is no obvious stress or deformation.

Ruger did want the broken striker returned to them, but only after I mentioned it, and I placed a note in the return envelope they sent that should any analysis of the broken part be done, I'd like to be notified of any conclusions.  I don't really expect them to do so, but if they do, great.

So far, so good.

-JT
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ismram on September 09, 2008, 09:56:56 AM


Vote for Turd Sandwich.
This is the most important election of our lives.
Turd Sandwich brings us hope for change.
A vote for Turd Sandwich is a Vote for Tomorrow!

Michael B
MB, Any quote of Cartman is SWEEEEET!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 09, 2008, 11:18:58 AM
Ml'ette
You can do whatever you want as long as you don't chew tobacco and spit. That's just not ladylike.

JB
I didn't know you got a turd for your bithday. That makes things different. That never even happened to Charlie Brown or Rodney Dangerfield. Please accept my apology for my comment the other day. I didn't know. And no I don't want to take it off your hands. That goes for other peoples turds too. No thanks.

Tom
I never saw Gullah Gullah Island but thought it was as real as Seasame Street. Was the show about one of those real islands?


It was like Sesame Street with Spanish moss instead of city buildings and no Muppets.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 09, 2008, 11:22:34 AM
I posted an update, but the thread got killed.

Ruger did overnight me a new striker, but because I had to wait for a supervisor to call back and hear the issue before authorizing that shipping method, I had to wait an additional day, as UPS already stopped by the plant.  There was another issue where the person who typed the UPS label misread the handwriting on the invoice, so there was another day delay from that.

The replacement striker looked a little like it came out of another gun.  I can understand reusing parts from guns that had other defects, so that's not that big a deal with me.  The heft was no different than the part that broke.  After installing the replacement and dryfiring with snap caps, the trigger pull did feel noticeably lighter to me.  It actually felt like a striker that had already been broken in.

Just to be sure, during the course of that weekend, I dryfired the gun several hundred times...near 1000.  After every hundred trigger pulls or so, I'd remove the striker and examine it for any obvious stress or deformation.  None was noted.  I finally managed to get it to the range this past Sunday to send some rounds downrange.  It was a short session, only putting about 60 rounds downrange at a plate rack.  I didn't shoot a paper target, so I couldn't really determine accuracy, but my performance on the plate rack indicates that there appears to be no noticeable change in accuracy (my slide was replaced during the trigger recall work).  No failures of any kind.  Gun went "bang" every time I pulled the trigger, and ONLY when I pulled the trigger.

The trigger blade safety did not bother me at all, and I really thought it would.  I pretty much didn't notice it at all.  When cleaning the gun later that day, I inspected the striker once more, and there is no obvious stress or deformation.

Ruger did want the broken striker returned to them, but only after I mentioned it, and I placed a note in the return envelope they sent that should any analysis of the broken part be done, I'd like to be notified of any conclusions.  I don't really expect them to do so, but if they do, great.

So far, so good.

-JT

Sounds like it was probably just a bad casting then. It happens sometimes no matter HOW carefully the work is done.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Michael Bane on September 09, 2008, 12:22:49 PM
Sorry about the yellow...I hit the wrong button, yellow being between pink and red.

Jay is totally right...I do have a warped view of guns, because I handle so many of them. I hope I can pass along a little of what I've learned handling all those guns. "Look-and-feel" is an illusive thing...as I said in the turd post, I'm not crazy about Glocks. However, my friend Chris Edwards, who works for Mr. Glock and who I've shot with for years and years, correctly points out that if I were to spend a couple of weeks shooting only Glocks, my body and my reflexes would adapt to the Glock "look-and-feel." Chris correctly points out that he and I began competing with the same guns, 1911 Commanders, and now 1911s feel "awkward," that is, "not-Glockish," to him.

I am intimately aware of how this adaptation process works because, as I've posted before, I've lost a good portion of the vision in my right eye due to a particularly nasty virus. I was wildly right-eye-dominant, heck right-side dominant...and I bitched and moaned and made excuses and raised holy hell until one of the GUNSITE instructors made me "shut the "F-word" up" and force myself to adapt. I am now "classically" left-eye-dominant. I still shoot right handed wth my left eye — it no longer feels strange at all — and I'm teaching myself to shoot long guns off my left shoulder. As I mentioned on the blog, last week I made a 1100-yard shot at the Whittington Center with John Gangl's custom .260 shooting for the first time off my left side with my left eye on the scope. Yes, it felt awkward as all get-out, but the results were there.

That's what I mean when I (or anyone else) talk about a trigger not being a deterrent to good shooting...while I might like a great trigger pull, when the rubber hits the road it seems to make much less difference, a la my GUNSITE class with both the M&P, which has a superb trigger, and the SR9, which doesn't. Same scores. That has forced me to rethink my own recommendations on triggers, trigger-pull, "riding" the trigger, etc.

Jay, I totally understand your frustration...you bought one puppy — a Rottweiler,say — send it to the vet for its shots and it came back a poodle. A broken striker is something that can be fixed by Ruger, but a different feel just isn't in the realm of correctable possibilities. Here's what I ask of you...give the gun a chance and give your body a chance to adapt to the way the gun shoots. That means shelving a lot of anger...believe me, I know of what I speak! When I found out that because of doctors' errors I had lost almost half the vision in my right eye, that it couldn't be corrected by lenses or surgery and that it was likely to continue to deteriorate, I have never been so coldly furious at anything in my life.

So here's the deal, Jay...give the Ruger 30 days of shooting. If you're still not happy with it, I'll swap you even for my S&W M&P 9mm, which is an excellent gun.

Fair?

Michael B
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ericire12 on September 09, 2008, 12:29:34 PM

So here's the deal, Jay...give the Ruger 30 days of shooting. If you're still not happy with it, I'll swap you even for my S&W M&P 9mm, which is an excellent gun.

Fair?

Michael B

 :o Wow!

Fair? That's a hell of a deal!

Mr Bane, your mama would be very proud. That really speaks volumes about you and what you are all about. Now what you want to trade me for a broken down old pick up truck with four flat tires........ Ive been looking for a new pistol in .22 lr ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 09, 2008, 12:56:50 PM
:o Wow!

Fair? That's a hell of a deal!

Mr Bane, your mama would be very proud. That really speaks volumes about you and what you are all about. Now what you want to trade me for a broken down old pick up truck with four flat tires........ Ive been looking for a new pistol in .22 lr ;D

Encircle,  If you deliver that truck I have a Sig Mosquito for ya (I figure I can scrap the truck and be even)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: PegLeg45 on September 09, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
So here's the deal, Jay...give the Ruger 30 days of shooting. If you're still not happy with it, I'll swap you even for my S&W M&P 9mm, which is an excellent gun.

Fair?

Michael B

What will you swap me?
I got this turd...no really...a real turd...... ;D

Seriously, after watching SG as much as possible, and now reading your posts on this thread, I think I can better understand "where you come from".
Some may not "get it", but I think you put it about as plainly as could be put, and I thank you and the other "M's" for a fine showing.

Now,......about that turd........... ;D

PS,
I hope no one here tries to spout the liberal philosophy that it is entirely possible to "pick up a turd from the clean end".
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: DDMac on September 09, 2008, 03:02:51 PM
"I hope no one here tries to spout the liberal philosophy that it is entirely possible to "pick up a turd from the clean end." -Pegleg .45

I recently sent off a request to the DNC for detailed instructions as to how to identify and properly grasp the "clean" end of a TURD.
In response, I received the TV listings for the 2008 Democratic National Convention..
Guess what? I saw how they chose the clean end!!

Read the rules. I am on notice. You'll have to fire me!

Mac.


Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 09, 2008, 06:52:30 PM
What a day.
I found out today that the company I work for is cutting everyone's salary by 20% for at least one month if not 'till the end of the year to make up for slow times. That's not good for me and could in fact be BAD for me, and shooting is probably going to take a big hit as it DOES fall behind mortgage and food on the list.

Then I get home and here's a strange email, and so I come out and find Michael's post on this thread, and I'm somewhat amazed and overwhelmed because, well, the Rotty and poodle analogy was right on!!! That's exactly it- like the new Shelby that gets retrofitted with the 2x4 for a gear shift lever...
and I DO hate  poodles.

I have PM'd MB and suggested that HE certainly doesn't owe me anything like that offer, and that just his advice and consideration, and (Hell!) friendship is worth an awful lot. And although I have owned my SR9 since mid-March I really haven't been shooting it for very long at all.

So Michael, what you are saying is that if I get out and shoot this thing I'll adapt and start hitting the paper with it, and that you are so certain of that you will offer up your M&P if I don't like the poodle after 30 days. That is awesomely generous and again, I feel like you are taking the heat for someone else on this, but it's a wonderful gesture.

Here's my predicament, though....thinking about it, let's say I take the poodle out tomorrow and get 1" groups at
50 yards with my off hand, freehand. My tendency would still be to say, "Ah, not so much...it's a poodle". That's because owning one of MB's pistols would be so much cooler, even if I couldn't hit the wide side of a Buick with it! Am I wrong? How many folks here would trash report the poodle just to get "Rollo the Rottweiler" Bane. See what I mean?

Now I'm really jammed up. I really appreciate the offer and, acknowleging the IMMENSE temptation to simply make this work out so I can own one of MB's pistols, i will take every opportunity to shoot the Ruger and make it hit. I will open my mind, say "Oohhhmmmmm.." and shoot it. I will BE the SR9, and I will give it the 30 days as best I am able under the previously mentioned circumstances. In fact, considering the wonderful offer, if I end up short of funding for ammo I'll extend the thirty days to make it equivalent to what I might have done in 30 days during good times. And I will, with all my moral character, attempt to resist the urge to get that MB pistol over truly evaluating the poodle, because Michael went way out on a limb here and I really, really appreciate it.

I hope anyone who got huffed up and wish to leave the forum over this other stuff checks back and sees this and realizes what they would be missing by leaving.
Thanks

 
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rob10ring on September 09, 2008, 06:59:51 PM
"I hope no one here tries to spout the liberal philosophy that it is entirely possible to "pick up a turd from the clean end." -Pegleg
Wasn't there a comedian who said something about feeding your pooch rubber bands, so that you could pick up their turds by a loop and launch them? Maybe it was Carlin.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 09, 2008, 07:02:30 PM


I hope anyone who got huffed up and wish to leave the forum over this other stuff checks back and sees this and realizes what they would be missing by leaving.
Thanks

 

+1
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Walter45Auto on September 09, 2008, 07:09:53 PM
.............and I DO hate  poodles.................
 

I'm a German Shepherd man Myself. ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on September 09, 2008, 07:16:12 PM
I'll take a generic mutt over any kind of inbred dog. I have a Sheltie-mix but none of the vets can figure out what the rest of the mix is. He's 50 pounds and Shelties are only 20 pounds. I have a weird dog with a head too small for his body but I love him.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: twyacht on September 09, 2008, 07:17:07 PM
Jaybethel , you are much man Gunga Din, good shooting and good luck on your 30 day pilgrimage to enlightenment. I think all of us have wished you nothing but success, despite your frustration, before, during, and after, the "issue" with your pistol.

Sorry about your job, the marine(boats and yachts), industry isn't fairing much better here either. I will gladly donate a box of ammo for your trial, PM me and its on the way. Shoot it all you can, give it a good run for the money, and I hope it works out.

P.S I am an M+P owner, but will do my Sgt. Schultz impersonation, German accent applies, "I know nothing. ::)

Best of Luck Jay,

Tom W.

P.S.S PETA will be contacting you regarding your poodle bias,.... ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Ichiban on September 09, 2008, 08:10:05 PM
As if my avatar didn't give it away, I'm kind of partial to GSDs or some mix there of. 

As for the SR9, I view it as having had great potential but it just didn't work out for me.  Hmmm, reminds me of my first wife. ::)

And MB's offer just serves to remind us we are dealing with real stand-up kind of folks here at DRTV.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: wisconsin on September 09, 2008, 08:21:34 PM
I'm a little surprised that some of the threads that went a little too far stayed as long as they did. And if some posts or threads were deleted I did not catch on that this was being done. However I work very hard for my money so when I put it down my money for an item and it doesn't work I expect the Co. to make good. Call me old fashion maybe I was raise a different way. But when a product fails and they all do at one time or another I expect the Co. to respond at the very least. Call that the new age of the internet. If your going to advertise here at DRTV as a Co. you should take the time to give us some feed back on your product if its starting to get bashed. The problem as I see it with any forums and its members is, some days we have too much coffee, its been raining too many days , had a fight with our better half, bought a firearm that isn't working proper, got to work and got blind sided with a crap job etc. Now you go online and that becomes your vehicle for your anger. It happens and we all do it from time to time. Sometimes someone has to step in and say OK! enough is enough stop it or this thread will be gone. Last time I remember when as a kid I screwed up I was told so by my parents. I still screw up at times and don't mind being told so. I'm not above being corrected for bad behavior. Its a growing proccess. I'll say it again as I have said it before DRTV has a different flavor thats why I will keep coming here..
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 09, 2008, 08:51:17 PM
  Was it something I      said?

 :-[
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: m25operator on September 09, 2008, 08:56:13 PM
I've been in automotive repair for 30 years, and to repair automobiles, it takes tools, some tools are good and some are not so good, and some stink, the difference since the internet age has begun, has been industry insiders, reps from the companies can now interact with the consumer, if they will go to the trouble. Michael, could you be the liason between us and the provider, no matter which company it is, on the automotive forums the reps lurk and see what the opinion of their product is, and sometimes answer directly to the consumer. I think any manufacturer who takes this to heart, will make a better product based on the consumers needs, it is a double edged sword, I know from my job with the public, but if you give them what they want, that is half the battle, if there is a problem, the consumer needs to know it's going to be fixed or that is the way it is, it allows them to make sound decisions.

I would definitely like to invite the manufacturers representatives to answer the call,  everybody puts out something that has a unintended consequence once in a while, if it is a good company, they are going to correct it.

Maybe a new forum for just this?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 09, 2008, 09:04:19 PM
I have a Sheltie-mix but none of the vets can figure out what the rest of the mix is. He's 50 pounds and Shelties are only 20 pounds. I have a weird dog with a head too small for his body but I love him.
Had a sheltie that we just put down last winter...a real sweetheart of a dog. Now her friend is our only pooch- a siberian husky, about 12 years old, blind, and a little "teched" from being poisoned a few years ago. Again though, what a sweetheart.
But a poodle is a poodle is a poodle, although I hear they don't shed. That's big time for a husky owner.

Twyacht- thanks. We've got a lot of your biz around here too and they are hurting. I have a lot of friends who just don't do so many trips anymore. Anyway, I appreciate the whole Gunga Din thing. i am gonna zen that beeeootch into submission. Or not- the MB M&P...always wanted one of those.

Not to stir the pot, butwith all this Kumbaya stuff going on there is still one party strangely absent. With all of the warmth we offer each other here, there's a defening silence from the manufacturer's side of this whole thing. What would be wrong with a certain company making an offer like MB has. (or even making contact or responding, for that matter)  While the DRTV community grows tighter and stronger (in my opinion) the corporation is missing an IMMENSE opportunity to build business, and it seems that they just don't get it. That's disappointing.

Good shooting everyone!

Just went back and read M25's comments and....well, look above...this is the age of communication and I guess some businesses just don't get it.

Hey Rastus...it's EVERYTHING you say. That's why everybody listens! Or as Haz says, "Kumbayaa".
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 09, 2008, 09:15:52 PM
OK...I got caught up in the dis too.  Sorry, should not have done that......know better.

It was out of disappointment rather than being upset over losing some coin.  That was going to be my carry.  I'm fortunate to have 3 or so CZ's, a couple of FN's, a couple of S&W's, a Colt or two, Taurus, a couple of Kimbers, a brace or two of Brownings and who knows what else and the unnamed gun was my favorite.  Had at least two more to buy...one for my eldest and was waiting on at least one compact...maybe a couple on top of that with different calibers.

Maybe after the USPSA is over at the range Toothman can do something with the trigger.

Jay, if it's works I'll PM you....
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 09, 2008, 09:20:07 PM
  Was it something I      said?

 :-[

YES!!!

;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 09, 2008, 09:22:13 PM
Oh.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: wisconsin on September 09, 2008, 10:33:00 PM
MB + jaybethel = Dam  :o this thread just got real interesting
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 10, 2008, 01:33:24 AM
That was a heck of an offer MB, and shows that you BELIEVE in the products that you advertise. It shows, to para phrase Tom Gresham, If you sell it, you USE it, not just get paid for it.
Jay, dry fire the crap out of it as well, use the "Wall Drill that they have video of , it will help loosen the tight bits as well as help you get use to the trigger.
On a side note, something I was going to ask about before this rule thread started, You guy's who Don't like that trigger, how much shooting have you done with double action only or striker fired pistols ? I'm not trying to be wise, but I know from my own experience that the vast majority of my pistol shooting has been in single action mode, either semi auto' like the 1911 or Tokarev, P-38 and PA 63 which all have hammers that can be manually thumbed back, or revolvers in single action mode, therefore when I shoot a Glock, Taurus Millenium,etc. my first thought is "Wow, this trigger sucks" but then I have to correct my self and say , " This trigger is not single action, it has a lot of stuff to do"
Anyway, it was just a thought.  ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ellis4538 on September 10, 2008, 06:37:34 AM
Jay, I agree with you about Ruger being quiet on your problem.  I know it is difficult to answer every concern/gripe but as much as you have stated your dissatisfaction it might have been a good thing if someone from Ruger lerking in the wings would have stepped forward and responded.  I can't say I've seen that much on any forum but it might start a trend.  As a matter of fact, I believe the only time I have seen it was when a member who just happened to work for Dillon responded to problems.

JMHO

Richard

PS:  MB, it was very good of you making that offer.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: saltydogbk on September 10, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
I think I'm gonna cry, I feel so much love here... :'(
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 10, 2008, 09:12:12 AM
Tomobogan---thanks for the advice, and that's exactly what I've been doing.
I have little experience with striker fired, but i have fired several, and wasn't overly turned off by them. I was pretty happy with the pre-recall SR9 trigger- gritty but the feel was good. The new one is very, very different and (for me) hard to control.
In order to asses the problem (assuming operator error) I HAVE been doing the wall drill a lot, working on grip, trigger finger placement, etc. and it is extremely difficult for me not to get lateral movement on trigger pull.
Also unhappy with the trigger, I tried something before a range trip that I think helped, and I'll pass it on.
I field stripped the gun then put the mag back in and looked at everything that moves on firing. I dumped oil all over all of it (perhaps "dumped" is an exaggeration) including the backside of the trigger. Then I dry fired just the trigger mechanism a lot, holding the gun in all different angles. Then I cleaned the oil out.
The other thing I did was take off the slide and turn it over. There is a small cleat or bracket on the striker. I put a little oil around there and (using a hard plastic dowel) I pushed the striker bracket back toward the rear of the pistol. I figure this simluates the firing motion, but pushing it back as far as it will go compresses the spring slightly MORE than it would in firing. I did that for a few minutes.
I took a range trip after that effort and actually thought I saw an improvement. I am still almost always getting pulled off target when I pull the trigger, but the wild, off the paper stuff is rare. So I went from three out of 5 off the paper to all on the paper, with inconsistent locations.  That's real progress, I think. Considering I could shoot the gun as well as any other when I got it, it's still not up to where it should be, but it's better than it was.
The trigger may still not be for me, but I think in doing what I described I've loosened it up a little.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: mosbear on September 10, 2008, 10:19:51 AM
Tomobogan---thanks for the advice, and that's exactly what I've been doing.
 Considering I could shoot the gun as well as any other when I got it, it's still not up to where it should be, but it's better than it was.
The trigger may still not be for me, but I think in doing what I described I've loosened it up a little.

I've gone through the same with my M&P9. A lot of range time and dry firing at home to get a feel of this gun.
If you'll go for a swap be prepared to spend time with the new gun. I suspect MB M&P9 got Performance Center sear installed; otherwise I don't see how the trigger pull can be excellent. Trigger pulls on any M&P are heavy “out of the box”, but this could be fixed rather quickly.
Here is a link to M&P forum, if you are interested.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/ (http://mp-pistol.com/boards/)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 10, 2008, 08:28:07 PM
I've gone through the same with my M&P9. A lot of range time and dry firing at home to get a feel of this gun.
If you'll go for a swap be prepared to spend time with the new gun. I suspect MB M&P9 got Performance Center sear installed; otherwise I don't see how the trigger pull can be excellent. Trigger pulls on any M&P are heavy “out of the box”, but this could be fixed rather quickly.
Here is a link to M&P forum, if you are interested.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/ (http://mp-pistol.com/boards/)

Mosbear,...I thought I needed a second 45 before they got banned (it was looking really bleak a few months back, remember?) so I picked up an M&P on recommendation of some gun people at USSA, had a gunsmith put a trigger job on it and   W - O - W .  Very sweet trigger now, I asked for 4.5 lbs and it's so dang good I picked up an M&P 9MM and had the trigger work performed before the first shot.....also sweet....still a striker with some takeup...but it breaks like glass same place same weight (actually measured) every time.   The same gunsmith has my ***** *** pistol and I'm hoping he can do something with it.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 10, 2008, 08:30:27 PM
Rastus,

Could he help your (our) POS Mosquito?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 10, 2008, 08:39:16 PM
Rastus,

Could he help your (our) POS Mosquito?

I plan on dropping it of (along with Kimber Team Match) just as soon as I pick up the CZ 75B, SPO-1 and ***** *** that's having the trigger job.

Ordering a can for my Mosquito next week so it's got to work.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 10, 2008, 08:43:50 PM
I plan on dropping it of (along with Kimber Team Match) just as soon as I pick up the CZ 75B, SPO-1 and ***** *** that's having the trigger job.

Ordering a can for my Mosquito next week so it's got to work.

???
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 10, 2008, 08:44:37 PM
OH wait!  Ya mean a supressor?  Where?  How much?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: gunman1911 on September 10, 2008, 09:33:30 PM
I guess we should have seen this comming as we do gripe alot and very hard about some issues here and maybe get out of hand with it. Not  thinking if the good people who run this fourm for us to enjoy  and now it has come time to apologize to them for the problemes that we have ocuured on them, so I will make mine now and hope that we all can do better for them and make thier jobs and life a litter ezyer so they can concentrae on giving us the best damm gun site on the web!

We all have one time or another thaked and even blessed them for this site that the work night day and evvn weeks without a rest to bring us the latest on events. So i say lets show (once agin) the thanks and respect for them by obeying thier rules.
I'll shut up now and go stand in my corrner. ( sorry fir typo's just got my puter back and it has been wiped of everthiny including spee check)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Hazcat on September 10, 2008, 09:50:20 PM
Hre ya go Gman

http://www.iespell.com/

It heps me a consederble banch as ya kin sea.

;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: jaybet on September 10, 2008, 10:17:05 PM
Man, I wish I'd had SPEE CHECK way back Ween....

So Rastus.....you found somebody to do a trigger job on your ***** ***?  I didn't know anyone had figured out how to do that! Or are you just ******* with us?
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ericire12 on September 10, 2008, 10:17:37 PM
Hre ya go Gman

http://www.iespell.com/

It heps me a consederble banch as ya kin sea.

;D

Firefox has one built in.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 11, 2008, 01:13:33 AM
Firefox has one built in.

Makes my posts readable, just click on the red underlined words, also reminds me to put the darn ' in that's  ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: mosbear on September 11, 2008, 01:24:11 PM
Mosbear,...I thought I needed a second 45 before they got banned (it was looking really bleak a few months back, remember?) so I picked up an M&P on recommendation of some gun people at USSA, had a gunsmith put a trigger job on it and   W - O - W .  Very sweet trigger now, I asked for 4.5 lbs and it's so dang good I picked up an M&P 9MM and had the trigger work performed before the first shot.....also sweet....still a striker with some takeup...but it breaks like glass same place same weight (actually measured) every time.   The same gunsmith has my ***** *** pistol and I'm hoping he can do something with it.

Rastus,

Don't want to highjack the thread, but I wish MB had S&W for a sponsor instead of Ruger. With all the usual maturity problems with M&Ps, Smith's customer service is a top notch. Shooting M&P9 with 17 round mag in rapid fire mode does feel like full auto, doesn’t it? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Mr.45 on September 11, 2008, 05:40:32 PM
Understood.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Rastus on September 11, 2008, 07:09:27 PM
OH wait!  Ya mean a supressor?  Where?  How much?

I decided to go whole hog...I'm thinking AAC Prodigy.  Something I can take apart and clean.  I started out just wanting the Pilot but really want something I can clean so if it's "off-the-shelf" I'll order a Prodigy.  If I have to wait for AAC to make a production run on them....been there done that, never again...I'll buy something from someone else.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: DDMac on September 11, 2008, 07:22:48 PM
Oh, to live somewhere rational on the issue of suppressors. :'(

NC is NOT!!.

Mac.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: twyacht on September 11, 2008, 07:25:20 PM
Oh, to live somewhere rational on the issue of suppressors. :'(

NC is NOT!!.

Mac.

You can bet Bev Perdue doesn't want 'em......
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 12, 2008, 02:22:15 AM
Oh, to live somewhere rational on the issue of suppressors. :'(

NC is NOT!!.

Mac.

This is something that's been bugging me, Suppressors are regulated under NFA, a FEDERAL law, if you pay the tax and do the paperwork FEDERAL govt. says have fun. How can a STATE over ride FEDERAL law and say no ?

MB, I've been thinking about this since I first read your "turd  post",You wrote "Does the fact that virtually every Colt Gold Cup will eventually snap the roll pin that holds the rear sight in place and launch the sight into the heavens — something that has been common knowledge for decades — make Colt Gold Cups turds?" the answer to that is YES. granted things made by men fail, however if they consistently fail in the same fashion it is a design flaw that could and SHOULD be fixed. ESPECIALY if it has been common knowledge for decades. I realize that production machining is not your thing, you shoot guns, help design guns write about guns, but you do not manufacture, guns or anything else of the sort so here goes. In manufacturing they have what is called "the corrective action process in quality control" The whole process is summed up by any 3 year old, WHY? Why were these items sent back? Because the rear sight came off. Why ? because the roll pin snapped. Why? OK I don't know why the roll pins snap so I'll skip to the next question, Can we fix the problem ? Yes, since the problem is holding 2 parts together we have options such as drilling and tapping to add a screw to existing items or a tack weld even. The next question in the process is can we prevent this from happening again ? Again since the problem is holding 2 parts together the answer is yes, redesign the sight mounting system to be stronger and either do away with the roll pin or retain it only as a secondary method of retention as it is not enough by itself, Such redesigns might be using a dovetail, or a larger dovetail, possibly using screws to attach the sight instead of pins. Since I don't specifically remember ever seeing a Gold cup I really can't give detailed info on the fix, but I think you get my drift. If a mass produced item consistently fails in the same manner YES it is a turd, it may be one you can work with as in this case, but it is an engineering failure that a company can and WILL fix if it respects its customers.
Unfortunately, to many companies take the attitude of the 19th century robber baron (railroad tycoon, I forget which one ) who said "Damn the consumer".
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: DDMac on September 12, 2008, 02:43:04 PM
Tom, here's what I think. The NFA passed in the 30's when State's Rights was a big deal and the Feds did not have the now-prevalent inclination to come in and "Federalize" everything. The language recognizes the right of the States to more strictly regulate firearms as defined under Sec 5861, but retains the Federal law as a minimum, "reasonable" standard.

 If you are a Federal licensee and Special Occupational Taxpayer (NFA FFL), you are generally exempt from what firearms a State restricts or bans under State law. But if you are just a regular guy, if the State says NO, the Feds concur.

THATS where I have a problem with NC. Suppressors are harder to qualify for than full auto. Diffrent, more restricted regulation, which would end up costing about 3 Grand for a can for a .22.

Mac.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: PegLeg45 on September 12, 2008, 02:50:15 PM
This is something that's been bugging me, Suppressors are regulated under NFA, a FEDERAL law, if you pay the tax and do the paperwork FEDERAL govt. says have fun. How can a STATE over ride FEDERAL law and say no ?

MB, I've been thinking about this since I first read your "turd  post",You wrote "Does the fact that virtually every Colt Gold Cup will eventually snap the roll pin that holds the rear sight in place and launch the sight into the heavens — something that has been common knowledge for decades — make Colt Gold Cups turds?" the answer to that is YES. granted things made by men fail, however if they consistently fail in the same fashion it is a design flaw that could and SHOULD be fixed. ESPECIALY if it has been common knowledge for decades. I realize that production machining is not your thing, you shoot guns, help design guns write about guns, but you do not manufacture, guns or anything else of the sort so here goes. In manufacturing they have what is called "the corrective action process in quality control" The whole process is summed up by any 3 year old, WHY? Why were these items sent back? Because the rear sight came off. Why ? because the roll pin snapped. Why? OK I don't know why the roll pins snap so I'll skip to the next question, Can we fix the problem ? Yes, since the problem is holding 2 parts together we have options such as drilling and tapping to add a screw to existing items or a tack weld even. The next question in the process is can we prevent this from happening again ? Again since the problem is holding 2 parts together the answer is yes, redesign the sight mounting system to be stronger and either do away with the roll pin or retain it only as a secondary method of retention as it is not enough by itself, Such redesigns might be using a dovetail, or a larger dovetail, possibly using screws to attach the sight instead of pins. Since I don't specifically remember ever seeing a Gold cup I really can't give detailed info on the fix, but I think you get my drift. If a mass produced item consistently fails in the same manner YES it is a turd, it may be one you can work with as in this case, but it is an engineering failure that a company can and WILL fix if it respects its customers.
Unfortunately, to many companies take the attitude of the 19th century robber baron (railroad tycoon, I forget which one ) who said "Damn the consumer".

That's a damn good point, Tom.
Having worked in a competitive, QC-driven industry, I should have thought of that angle also.
Thanks.

 8)
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: ellis4538 on September 12, 2008, 03:12:05 PM
Having read the latest posts I must add another to my first...We the consumer must take part of the blame for TURDS real or imagined.  I have waited with bated breath for such and such to appear for a long time after I read/heard/whatever about it.  I have cussed under and over my breath the many manufacturers who do this.  I thought it was great Ruger introduced their latest during "Red October".  They must have heard me ranting about other gun makers taking so long to release a gun they had introed x years ago or an accessory mfg. for the same thing.  I also have to admit that they did a good job in two respects...1) There were a bunch , TURDS or NOT, ready for the pipeline and 2) they came up with a fix in a fair amount of time (yea, I know the fix doesn't work too well - give it a chance- and it seemed like forever if you were waiting for your box to arrive - I wasn't!), but still they did do a pretty good job.  I fault them for one and only one thing...not responding in writing/on the web/whatever to our concerns.  MAYBE NEXT TIME.  And finally, no one would have imagined the LCP would have made such an instant impact sales wise.

Rant mode OFF

J Another of MHO

Richard

Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: tombogan03884 on September 12, 2008, 10:36:31 PM
Tom, here's what I think. The NFA passed in the 30's when State's Rights was a big deal and the Feds did not have the now-prevalent inclination to come in and "Federalize" everything. The language recognizes the right of the States to more strictly regulate firearms as defined under Sec 5861, but retains the Federal law as a minimum, "reasonable" standard.

 If you are a Federal licensee and Special Occupational Taxpayer (NFA FFL), you are generally exempt from what firearms a State restricts or bans under State law. But if you are just a regular guy, if the State says NO, the Feds concur.

THATS where I have a problem with NC. Suppressors are harder to qualify for than full auto. Diffrent, more restricted regulation, which would end up costing about 3 Grand for a can for a .22.

Mac.

Thank you for the lesson Mac.


Having read the latest posts I must add another to my first...We the consumer must take part of the blame for TURDS real or imagined.  I have waited with bated breath for such and such to appear for a long time after I read/heard/whatever about it.  I have cussed under and over my breath the many manufacturers who do this.  I thought it was great Ruger introduced their latest during "Red October".  They must have heard me ranting about other gun makers taking so long to release a gun they had introed x years ago or an accessory mfg. for the same thing.  I also have to admit that they did a good job in two respects...1) There were a bunch , TURDS or NOT, ready for the pipeline and 2) they came up with a fix in a fair amount of time (yea, I know the fix doesn't work too well - give it a chance- and it seemed like forever if you were waiting for your box to arrive - I wasn't!), but still they did do a pretty good job.  I fault them for one and only one thing...not responding in writing/on the web/whatever to our concerns.  MAYBE NEXT TIME.  And finally, no one would have imagined the LCP would have made such an instant impact sales wise.

Rant mode OFF

J Another of MHO

Richard



I would not call that a rant Richard, You are bringing up some very good points. If the consumers had been happier with the SR9 its self Ruger would still be being hailed as hero's for the manner of its introduction, Also while people complain about the length of time to get their shipping box the turn around on them seems to be fairly quick, especially when you consider that the work is being done by whoever Supervisors can spare from production lines that still have to be kept running, and only in 1 facility. All the recall work is probably being done by 5 or 6 people working their tails off.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Big Frank on November 17, 2008, 11:38:10 PM
This may be good news for owners of certain un-named pistols. You can indeed polish a turd.  :)  I saw it on last week's MythBusters.
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Ruger-55 on November 18, 2008, 08:23:02 AM
Hey jaybet, I never took anything you said to heart . I think that as people we should be able to express our selfs with in reason and not be hate full about anything . I belive in getting my money's worth when I buy some thing or expressing my opion about some thing with out being hatefull . but what do we need to do to get the companys to listen to our concerns??? Yes we can call them but do they listen?? They make a product that people depend on ( with there lives) so we must do what we must BUT with a smart mind ......
Title: Re: NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!
Post by: Ruger-55 on November 18, 2008, 05:27:58 PM
 :-\ :-\ :-\ After reading page 1-12 on this subject I feel that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things ... If anyone has a problem with any thing they buy and are not happy with it TAKE IT BACK and get your money back......... But on the other hand ( and I'm guilty of this) some people let there mouth over load there a**.  But like I said earlyer what is a person to do when they get no where............. Guns are not cheap kids toys they are a peice of machined metal that was made to either kill or defend your self or a loved one .....  If the 2nd amen. didn't say anything about the right to bear arms we would not be having this discustion or would we ????????????????????????????