Stupid people can get hurt easily!

[garand4life]

Scott,
I normally carry a bigger gun in a Galco Summer Comfort for just the reason you mention. However, in this particular case I carried the same way I have for nearly 3 years. I never had trouble with printing in this setup, especially since I went to the compact 9mm M&P. I have on many occasions carried in places frequented by LEOs and people who jokingly make references to my carrying and have several times looked me over and asked if I was (with this same holster and a bigger gun i might add). I do carry a knife but I don't trust myself in using it for defense and in this instance it was so quick and so unexpected (as if there was any other kind) that I would never have been able to access the blade in time. As close as he was to me the ability for me to get to it was compromised. During the day I normally don't carry anything that would be a good impact tool. And just to mention I threw on my 9 in the paddle because this was such a quick trip a block away that I didn't take my full EDC. When I'm out in the evening or expect to be away for a prolonged time I usually carry either a Surefire G2 flashlight or their 6P Defender model. During the encounter I don't recall every having tunnel vision per se, but definitely my heart rate shot through the roof, the adrenaline spiked and I think that attributed to my actions in backing up and reaching for my holster as well as trying to push this guy back to build distance. The fact that I did that much still surprises me. Again my OCD would have prevented me from blindly taking actions that revealed my gun. I didn't reach up for anything or make any gestures to it. The only way he could have spotted it is when I turned to get out of my PT Cruiser and I puled my shirt back over the gun. He would have had to be paying a lot of attention to me before the fact to ever have had an opportunity to see it.
The guy that helped to intervene in this situation, the tall guy, I still don't know why he acted as I never got to talk with him when the police arrived. I've been told be the responding officers that as far as he has gathered I was completely in the right and I did nothing that he considers in violation of the CCW laws in OHIO. After the fact when the adrenaline high stopped the shakes didn't even lighten up for several hours. Needless to say I needed the soothing 23 flavors to calm myself. I still am jittery after all of this.

[texcaliber]

I think if you take a few people out of this equation then the next step would be to use deadly force. In my opinion your life was in serious jeopardy.

I would of liked the ability of O.C. and depending on time of day a very strong hand-held light to add to this scenario

I would of personally have already drawn my edge-weapon(left in the closed position) for a reinforced strike to the threat with ability to escalate to the use of deadly force by cutting hands and threats away from my holstered gun if needed. Draw of firearm following immediately!

To me it sounded like you were targeted by a mentally diluted individual. You were very lucky and blessed for the way it ended. This person may have been looking to the "suicide by citizen" to end his miserable life and insure his family financial security after they sue the crap out of you for shooting a "poor, mentally unbalanced, down on his luck, alcohol/drug diseased, on his way to turning his life around and UNARMED!! " guy. Get my point? It is just a hypothetical but it doesn't sound as crazy as the incident.

tex

[scott.ballard]

Great information!

Thank you!!!

[garand4life]

Oddly when I got up this morning my day started really well. First I take my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor Certification this weekend. So not only will I be able to add a skill to my resume I will be able to make a little money since I got laid off from ATT back in August and I'll get plenty of trigger time with my new M&Ps to boot. Secondly I went over to an older neighbors this morning to fix a PC issue and as I was waiting on the OS to reload I looked through the shelves of DVDs next to the computer. On the middle shelf was a few that caught my eye. It was almost entirely a Pincus-thon. The entire NRA Personal Defense Collection as well as Combat Focused Shooting and a few others from back in the Valhalla days. So I managed to arrange to borrow them for a few weeks. I hope I'll be able to get to them soon. So all of this asses stupidity really put a kink in my good day. And as I sit here typing this I am trying to put my range bag back together from the winter lull and finish cleaning my M&P collection for the class. Thanks for the reassurance with this situation and again if Michael Janich happens to be coming this way I hope he drops a notice on DRTV I really want to take his class now more than I did before this happened.

[texcaliber]

one or two after thoughts:

You may want to seek the advice of an attorney just to put you at total ease. Also just in case something in the future happens you can get a better answer to your what if's.  Also you might  find it necessary to talk to you Priest or Pastor to set you straight.

and you were in the right.

tex

[Sponsor]

[garand4life]

one or two after thoughts:

You may want to seek the advice of an attorney just to put you at total ease. Also just in case something in the future happens you can get a better answer to your what if's.  Also you might  find it necessary to talk to you Priest or Pastor to set you straight.

and you were in the right.

tex

Luckily my dad is a minister here so that's covered. I'm working on getting a hold of an attorney who is a friend of the family to get his thoughts. But, I'm feeling better about the whole thing after talking with a few friends here and online. The lady who was working the register came by the house when she got off a few hours ago. She said that she recognized the guy as being someone who has been a problem for them on more than one occasion. Her manager made a comment to her that the guy has been real shady and likes to loiter outside around the time school lets out. When this happened school had just let out and a good number of middle school aged kids come through there to get a drink and such on their walk home. So I am really concerned this guy may have been up to more than just being an ass to me. This is the point where your imagination starts to run wild. What if this guy was a predator waiting for a child prey. Or maybe he saw me as a threat catching only a glimpse of what he perceived as a firearm. The imagination can create any number of scenarios. I expect to be hearing soon from JJ, one of our local LEOs and the responding officer, to hear what they know about the guy.

[brosometal]

I just caught this, but a couple of observations:

First, hands down, the guy was up to no good. 

I carry daily and am pretty aware of my surroundings most times.  I will even play "guess who's carrying" in a high traffic areas.  That would never be a reaction of someone who conceal carries for SD  or anyone else who caught a quick glimpse of a concealed weapon. Even most bed wetters would have left the scene or called the police.  That was not this jack-donkey's reaction.

I imagine as others have guessed that he caught a glimpse of your weapon (IWB better than paddle any day IMHO) and considered you a LEO possibly?  Or he figured he could intimidate an armed citizen and possibly steal a weapon.

Another trick I learned long before I ever carried a gun:  Perception is reality.  (I have a silly anecdote to illustrate it if you need one).  He was the aggressor in the scenario.  A simple shouted, "Get your hand out of my pocket" (reportedly used as a diversionary tactic as Malcom X was shot) will paint the person in a bad light.  So in the event you actually have to un-holster your weapon the overall perception of potential witnesses would be you: good guy, wing nut: bad guy.

All in all, it happened quickly, you kept your wits about you and are none the worse for wear.  Its much easier to armchair quarterback from down South after thinking about it.  Kudos my friend.  Count it as a lesson learned with no permanent consequences.

[Teresa Heilevang]

I can tell right now that I need more lessons in how to react to something like this.
As I was reading it..my heart started beating so fast.. I really don't know what I would do.. as a woman.. I feel like I take all the visual precautions I can.. and I carry all the time on my person when I leave my small hometown..
but that would have freaked me out big time.

I had a guy push up against me and put his hands on my waist once in a very crowed aisle..
I immediately reacted by swinging around and directly looking at him ..
He just looked at me in a funny way and said .. sorry~~
 I know he felt my gun.. I moved away from him and made sure of my position and surroundings when I left the store..

That kinda weirded me out.. but an full force verbal and physical encounter would most likely in all honesty battle rattle me..

I'm going to pm Rob Pincus or Michael Janich with this link and see if they will give some advise also.

[Rob Pincus]

Hey everyone... I got a "page"... :-)...

G4life,

You did a great job. (note the period)

***

As for some of the advice that has been offered and the follow on discussions:

As soon as I realized what he was apparently trying to do I verbally told him to step back and then when he attempted to reach for my again I stepped into him with as much of my weight as I could, without presenting my holster side to him, and tried to push him back.

Completely justified here. As you note, you stepped back, he reached in again. Your counter-attack trying to create space is fine. Tactically, it may or may not have been appropriate.. but doing something certainly was.

Look for other ways to to defend yourself besides your firearm and you will have more options next time.

(From Scott)

I agree with the concept here... and I think your actions (above) met the concept.. you did defend yourself with means other than the firearm. First Verbally. Then with an unarmed technique.
All of the tools that were mentioned are options... but they may still be "lethal" options, don't fool yourself about that. You draw a knife, it's lethal just like the gun. In many jurisdictions, a baton could also be considered lethal. Of course, you can scale their use... but you still go from "0 to 60" in many cases. Having the knife in the case of a gun - grab is one thing, having a knife as a "middle ground" is something entirely different.

I agree that sometimes you just get made.

It happens. All we can do it try not to let it happen and then be ready if it does. There is a big stir in this country about Open Carry right now... I think it is not the way to go,.. partially because of situations just like this one. If nothing else, hopefully everyone who reads this thread or hears the story will think about what they would do in the situation if they get "called out". This exposure to the fact that it could happen will make responding more efficient for whichever one it happens to next. Think about it now so you have some intuitive options. As Mr. Janich says: Have a Plan, then Work Your Plan.


-RJP

[tombogan03884]

G4L, you handled it better than I would have.
I would have yelled "get your hands off my wallet!" and kicked him in the nuts.