Author Topic: Stupid people can get hurt easily!  (Read 4882 times)

Big Frank

  • NRA Benefactor Member
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11245
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1553
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 10:55:49 PM »
G4L, you handled it better than I would have.
I would have yelled "get your hands off my wallet!" and kicked him in the nuts.  ;D

I believe that would be the proper, less than lethal, move.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

Teresa Heilevang

  • The "Other Halloway"
  • Global Moderator
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3639
  • Don't make me call the flying monkeys! DRTV Ranger
    • The Perfect Touch
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 11:18:31 PM »
Great idea!!~~~
I could holler~~" Get your hands off my................"... ;D


Thanks Rob....   :-*
(((All you guys could take some lessons from Mr Pincus on an issue he didn't cover..
 How to jump from a speed of "0-60'...when getting a request from me..  ;) )))
**grinning**
 
"Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History ! "
 

sledgemeister

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Democrat Sheeples
    • Australian Hunting Net
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2010, 07:45:18 AM »
Great idea!!~~~
I could holler~~" Get your hands off my................"... ;D


 


Broom?
I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters. - Solomon Short

Teresa Heilevang

  • The "Other Halloway"
  • Global Moderator
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3639
  • Don't make me call the flying monkeys! DRTV Ranger
    • The Perfect Touch
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 08:02:13 AM »
Ohhhhhhh~~ that is low....low low low I say~~  ;D ;D





Of course my broom.. what else do I have that's worth grabbing.............. ;)
"Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History ! "
 

PegLeg45

  • NRA Life, SAF, Constitutionalist
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13267
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1366
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2010, 02:21:42 PM »
Broom?

Ohhhhhhh~~ that is low....low low low I say~~  ;D ;D


Of course my broom.. what else do I have that's worth grabbing.............. ;)


 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

Sponsor

  • Guest
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #25 on: Today at 11:55:55 AM »

scott.ballard

  • Very Active Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
  • Think+Plan+Train = Survive
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2010, 03:18:31 PM »
I agree with the concept here... and I think your actions (above) met the concept.. you did defend yourself with means other than the firearm. First Verbally. Then with an unarmed technique.
All of the tools that were mentioned are options... but they may still be "lethal" options, don't fool yourself about that. You draw a knife, it's lethal just like the gun. In many jurisdictions, a baton could also be considered lethal. Of course, you can scale their use... but you still go from "0 to 60" in many cases. Having the knife in the case of a gun - grab is one thing, having a knife as a "middle ground" is something entirely different.

-RJP

[/quote]


Actually what I was advocating here was a sensible escalation of force appropriate to the level the attacker presented.  In this case the application of a simple sternum strike using the handle of a CLOSED knife, a spare mag or a flashlight would most likely have stopped the individual in his tracks.  More of a 0 to 30 option.  It also would have given the defender the opportunity to avoid the body to body contact he experienced.  This meant the defender was within the grasp of the attacker through the defender's own doing.  The degeneration of any encounter to that of a wrestling match is what we all try to avoid.  A shoulder check is a viable option if no other choice is available.

I agree that a flashlight, a knife, a kubotan, EDWs and chemical deterrents are potentially lethal. So are a pen and keys.   However they are considered less lethal alternatives to the use of a firearm.  They provide a reasonable, effective and suitable alternative to feeling like your only options are verbal, H2H or deadly force.  If a person is consigned to use such items they should seek professional training so they can formulate a plan.

Trite, but very true:  If the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem will look like a nail.

I am in no way saying that G4life did anything wrong.  He originally asked for other viewpoints.  Mine is that he explore other options regarding the tools for escalation.  To be clear this means that he and the rest of us, obtain legal counsel regarding the escalation of force and how those laws apply to us individually.  Then, use the tools available to us, including verbal assets, within the restrictions of those laws as each person deems appropriate to their needs. After that, ask the introspective question; Will 12 reasonable people in your locale consider your planned actions reasonable?  

Ultimately, most plans go to pot as soon as the first shot is fired so being adaptable to the dynamic of the encounter is most likely going to save lives.  Having options is never a bad thing because sometimes the problem is not quite a nail.

Above all else, obtain professional training for any item you choose to use for self defense.  Practice with those items.  Decide how you will use them before you need them.  Finally, remember to think your way through the encounter.

Stay Safe,
Scott

There exists a law, not written down anywhere but inborn in our hearts; a law which comes to us not by training or custom or reading but by derivation and absorption and adoption from nature itself; a law which has come to us not from theory but from practice, not by instruction but by natural intuition. I refer to the law which lays it down that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.

ericire12

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7926
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2010, 03:28:30 PM »
I think The Picus hit the nail right on the head, and his points were mostly the ones I was going to touch on..... I will also add that you probably should not have attempted the push unless you were 100% certain he was going to go down - perhaps the inclusion of a trip of some sort might have helped facilitate that.

I personally would not have tried the push becuase I know my own personal limitations and I can assure you that the odds would have greatly favored the guy not going down ;D Distance and verbage would have been my answer.... all the while trying to keep my gun side as far away from the dude as possible.

Overall I think you did good. I am glad that you had friends on the inside when this all happened - store clerk, cop, and the good citizen that stepped in to help....... if you have not thanked them yet, you should.
Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Country Music.

ericire12

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7926
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2010, 03:32:14 PM »
Scott-

In most areas, a knife is legally considered a deadly weapon. Once that blade is out, you made it all the way to 60.
Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Country Music.

scott.ballard

  • Very Active Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
  • Think+Plan+Train = Survive
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 03:50:05 PM »
Scott-

In most areas, a knife is legally considered a deadly weapon. Once that blade is out, you made it all the way to 60.

Yes, I agree. 

Please understand that I am NOT saying that a knife is not a deadly weapon.  They are the most prolific potentially deadly weapon in every hoplophobe's house. Most likely the most prolific in America.

What I am saying is that a closed folding knife held in the hand is a suitable and reasonable alternative to going H2H or to deadly force.  It reinforces the strike while mitigating the potential for damaging the hand.  If you were sitting on a jury would you consider the handle of a closed folding knife used to reinforce a strike to the sternum to be a deadly application of force?  Is it not a reasonable LTL response to a disparity of force?  Would you convict or exonerate an individual for this defensive action?

The same holds true for the other LTL self defense tools.  They are a suitable alternative to going directly to a firearm. Use any of the tools I have described in an alternative manner and you create  a window for explanation.  Use a firearm as a bludgeon and you are likely to be deemed irresponsible.
Scott

There exists a law, not written down anywhere but inborn in our hearts; a law which comes to us not by training or custom or reading but by derivation and absorption and adoption from nature itself; a law which has come to us not from theory but from practice, not by instruction but by natural intuition. I refer to the law which lays it down that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.

Solus

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8666
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Stupid people can get hurt easily!
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2010, 04:09:52 PM »
I have been following this thread and the FOF  thread going on...and I wonder if even a simple FOF scenario with an aggressor just trying this type of weapons grab would have helped feel more comfortable in this situation?

Let you know what moves you could make to keep distance or less than advanced martial arts strikes that would offer discouragement.

It seems that just the fact that "you have been there" would make your decisions more comfortable.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk