competition value in regard to training (Split from other thread)

[scott.ballard]

I think some of the anti-competition rants here are dogmatic and really need to be backed up with some hard core research for me to take them seriously.
[/quote]

Did not intend them as rants.  My apologies if they came across that way.

I've been instructed to not be so verbose so he goes.

Concessions: Competition has a place.  It is helpful training. 

My Point: Competition is not the same as an actual deadly force encounter and stands behind actual FOF when it comes to training alternatives.  My opinion.  Not a statement of fact you must abide by.

Use whatever training method(s) works best for you. 

Stay safe,

[WatchManUSA]

I, like many, do competative shooting.  Mine is IDPA.  However, I have never considered IDPA as training.  Like most clubs my club tries to provide creative and interesting stages for members.  Many of these stages contain elements that I and others have never had to execute.  Members plan out their approach based on the walk through and sometimes change a (or should I say adapt) based upon seeing what others try.

Now I may learn something from the stage.  However, I consider it a stretch to call this gained knowledge and experience training.  The reason is that the knowledge gain is a byproduct.  Gaining knowledge is not the primary objective of most IDPA Match Directors.  Success of the event does not hinge on what people learn.  The event is judged successful on the amount of trigger time and that people enjoy themselves.

Training (as I defined in my Chef post earlier) is only successful if the training objectives are met.  Fun and entertainment is desired but not required.

I guess forsome competative shooting may be training but then your definition of training must be different than mine.  Nothing wrong with that...

[garand4life]

Could it not be said that the mere execution of more complex shooting skills such as moving and shooting, multiple target transitions, and the need for performing quick reloads under stress (time) be the real value of competition? Especially IDPA which pushed the use of common everyday gear? I think we are overcomplicating the issue. Sure the stages may or may not be realistic for the average person but the fact that the "competitor" has to put practical skills into action and practice those skills in a non-square range way is absolutely valuable. Especially given that you can't perform these functions on a normal square range. Plus it adds in a lot of cases the additional stress of having to recall certain regulations which could easily carry over to the real world. Knowing when you can shoot or forcing you to identify your target before engaging are good things to have to think about instead of just point and shoot. It breaks the mold of standing on a firing line and putting holes in paper. I love the idea of competition as a training tool.

[Rob Pincus]

I love the idea of competition as a training tool

That sorta skews the ability for objectivity. 

but the fact that the "competitor" has to put practical skills into action

Again, this is the crux of the issue. Are the skills "practical"? If you are grabbing your gun from a buzzer, swinging from target to pre-known target, arbitrarily pausing in the middle of a "scenario" to top off your gun because of instructions, "proving" use of cover by engaging targets in a specific order without regard for actual use of cover and racing to "empty and show clear" at the completion of your string of fire, you are not training "practical skills". In fact, you may be forming some really bad habits.

There is no doubt that you can become a better shooter through competition and you will get better at the skills you are practicing... just be careful what you are practicing.

Also, by the way, competition is FUN. Sometimes that is enough... it doesn't need to be rationalized beyond that.

-RJP

[scott.ballard]

Scott,

You have some misunderstandings about the power of training and there may be some terminology issues. Instincts cannot be "developed". [This sentence modified after re-read for clarification] The conversion from instinctive reaction to learned responses (quickly going from a flinch to a drawstroke, for example) is about the best we an hope for. Your assertion that you have conditioned yourself to react differently to "outgoing gunfire" is hard to swallow, at best. Not flinching when you shoot or when you are expecting gunfire (on a range, etc) is not a "honing" of your instincts it is simply not being startled. This has nothing to do with what you will do when you ARE startled. Conditioning does not obfuscate the relationship between natural stimuli and natural reactions... in fact, it specifically ties learned stimuli to natural reactions. Those natural reactions are incredibly powerful and offer huge real world survival benefits, so you should focus more on working with them and less on trying to get around or deny them. There are piles of clinical evidence for these principles and we have a fair amount of real world and training video showing learned responses being trumped by natural (instinctive) reaction time and time again when people are truly startled.


-RJP

Instincts evolve on a daily basis.

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html

Excerpts from summary:

Man has been a tribal animal since he first walked erect, more than four million years ago. With the impediment of being bipedal, he could not out-climb or outrun his predators. Only through tribal cooperation could he hold his predators at bay.

For two million years, the early hominid was a herd/tribal animal, primarily a herd herbivore. During the next two million years the human was a tribal hunter/warrior. He still is. All of the human's social drives developed long before he developed intellectually. They are, therefore, instinctive. Such instincts as mother-love, compassion, cooperation, curiosity, inventiveness and competitiveness are ancient and embedded in the human. They were all necessary for the survival of the human and pre-human. Since human social drives are instinctive (not intellectual), they can not be modified through education (presentation of knowledge for future assimilation and use). As with all other higher order animals, however, proper behavior may be obtained through training (edict and explanation followed by enforcement).

The intellect, the magnitude of which separates the human from all other animals, developed slowly over the entire four million years or more of the human development. The intellect is not unique to the human, it is quite well developed in a number of the other higher animals. The intellect developed as a control over instincts to provide adaptable behavior. The human is designed by nature (evolution) to modify any behavior that would normally be instinctive to one that would provide optimum benefit (survivability). This process is called self-control or self-discipline, and is the major difference between the human and the lower order animals, those that apply only instinct to their behavioral decisions. Self-discipline, therefore, is the measuring stick of the human. The more disciplined behavior (behavior determined by intellect) displayed by the individual, the more human he becomes. The less disciplined behavior (behavior in response to instinct) displayed by an individual, the more he becomes like the lower order animals that are lacking in intellect and are driven by their instincts.[/b]

If our instincts can evolve and be trained through intellect, the great variable is the method used for said training.  Competition or other?  Use what you feel works best for you.

Stay safe,

[Sponsor]

[m25operator]

" Just be careful what you are practicing " Right on, as both a competitor and what we used to call " marshal artist with a gun "

The original practical shooting was more prone to training, Hot range, which meant you were loaded and holstered when you got on the range, you firearm was loaded until the end of the night. We did lots of skill sets, Weak hand shooting, drawing, reloading, strong hand only as well, shooting from awkward positions, including on your back over your feet, shooting from moving vehicles, or at moving targets, inside vehicles, over walls, swinging on ropes etc... I have no doubt this helped me. We also shot ( secret ) stages in the dark, grab your flashlight and go find bad guys, don't shoot the innocent, don't talk to anybody after you go through as to give them an advantage. When I became a match director for our home grown tactical/practical match, My goal was to make each stage stress a skill, fast and furious, low round count, reloading, cover and concealment, long range pistol shots, out to 100 yards, and usually a secret stage, you get a scenario, but no look at the stage design. We might mock a building, or you would negotiate paths, that provided targets as you came to them, We used the photographic targets, that allow you to put an insert into the hand of the target, gun, knife, cell phone, badge, drill motor, cigs etc... I would have stages holding a sack that was weighted and it was your child, to protect as you go through the stage. Many shooters did not like it, low round count = less fun, skills they did not possess like shooting 50 to 100 yrds. The martial artist crowd loved it, I even made a target like Thunder Ranch uses, but not as expensive, and ipsc target with balloons on the back side where you cannot see them but placed in strategic places, head, chest and pelvis, you shoot until the target drops, I hate to tell you how many competitors ran out of ammo on those stages, the hits still have to be on point. We even put a water sprayer that was remote controlled, so if you exposed yourself too far, you would get wet, and penalized. The range officer could even give a shooter " style points " if he or she made and exceptional solution. We ran our matches with what we called " do right rules "
if your trying to game it, and it is out of context, you lose points or gain time, completely arbitrary, very little discussion if you f up.

A suggestion to other match or stage designers, I did one stage that I think was really a good idea, and it was an exposure drill, par times of 2 seconds, allowed I think .15 second to respond to the stop buzzer, shooter starts behind cover with gun in hand, ready to fire, he or she only gets 2 seconds to expose and fire, then has to go back to cover and come out the next from a different spot of cover, repeat until all targets are down, and add up the time at the end. Would have been better if we could have moved away from the targets to create distance, but retreating ( moving backwards ) is not allowed on our range. Best shooting I have ever done in my life, I won't say what I did, but man I wished I had it on video.

The point is we tried to make it challenging, not a target shoot, our range will not allow 75% of what we could do in the old days, and I'm not griping, but that is what made me a better shooter, we did not have a rule book, just a scenario and your ability to solve it. I learned a lot from other shooters solutions as well, just like I do when I watch the BD shows. A smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from other peoples mistakes.

I think both Pincus and Janich bring a passion and intensity, that is rare, and Michael B, finds other instructors who seem to share a lot the same strengths.

Something Rob said is what is strongest, " when you are truly startled " Thank God, every time I have been truly startled, my reactions have been instant, and so far I have survived, there are a few men out there that wished they had not startled me, I am usually a slow twitch guy, not so when scared. They say you are one or the other, my fast twitch fu, scares me. It takes an exceptional competition event to reveal this response, wisely so I would offer. Water boarding comes to mind as a real response maker, in a controlled environment,  and no I don't want to try it, kudos to you warriors that did it.

[scott.ballard]

Just an interesting comment:

"The thing to remember is...How you train is how you're going to fight.  The more practical exercises that can be done with Simunitions or Airsoft or Paintball, the better."

Mark Keefe, Editor in Chief of American Rifleman Magazine, on the TV show American Guardian aired on 2010 MAR 10.

[bbbean]

A point that seems to be lost in many of these discussions is that for a great many people, the choice is not between regular tactical training and competition. If that were the choice, and the goal was to be as tactically prepared as possible, then we'd all choose tactical training. 

But that isn't the typical real world choice. Most gun owners will never compete, never take a self defense class, have no military or LE experience, and their shooting will likely be limited to occasional plinking or target shooting. Their training will be limited to watching TV and maybe reading a magazine or two.

Shooters who choose to graduate beyond the Plinker Corps and compete do, in fact, develop a host of skills that will prove useful in a self defense situation. These shooters will gain increased accuracy, familiarity with their gun, ability to shoot on the move, improved target acquisition, and stress inoculation. Compared to the average gun owner, these shooters have made a quantum leap in preparedness.

Granted, this isn't the same thing as SD or tactical training. Ideally, competitive shooters will supplement their competitive regimen with training for real world scenarios. But to dismiss competition and competitive training is akin to arguing that basketball players shouldn't run laps because they seldom run in a straight line during a game.

It might also be worth noting that the vast majority of top competitors are also current or former LEOs or members of teh military. Most of them are also actively working as trainers for the military, LE, or private security firms. Insights gained through competition have changed the way we train for combat and the way weapons are designed. Clearly these organizations value the skills and insight gained through competition.

[bulldog75]

Competition you can prepare and calm yourself down a notch. Breathing and such. Getting time to prep your gear and run the event through your head. Are all things you can do to better prepare.

Real sh@@ it is on and there is no comparison. No time to get ready just go time.

[Michael Bane]

Sorry for slow response...been traveling (there's a shock).

Let me go back to a couple of high-risk sports analogies. In cave diving there is a basic philosophy: Learn what keeps you alive! Figure out what you need to do 100% right 100% of the time and train to do that. That philosophy takes you back to the basics.In a self-defense context, there are 2 fundamental "basics" — shoot/no-shoot and can you deliver the shot. Each of those breaks down into specific mental and physical training specifics.

Second point — all my high-risk sports training assumed the startle reflex. How I rigged my gear as a cave/technical diver and as a mountaineer both assumed that when the SHTF my hands would be able to find the tools I needed to survive following startle. My first cave diving instructor put it best: NEVER TRAIN AGAINST THE OPERATING SYSTEM! Given the monkey startle reflex and the incredible stress of a life/death decision, training that was in direct conflict to the "operating system," the fundamental set of reflexes that are wired into our heads, will fail.

One of the reasons Rob is on the shows is that I think the Combat Focus Shooting program he developed takes both of my 2 points into consideration and quickly evolves a Real World training program that addresses those points. Not that Rob and I agree on every point of training...no 2 trainers will ever agree on all points.

Couple of Real World examples on the points:

• I'm a long way back in a cave in central Florida, maybe 80-90 feel down in a very narrow tunnel. Somehow I manage to smack my regulator against a rock outcropping, cracking a critical art and causing it to go "free-flow," that is, the air begins blowing out. Startle, followed by a second of pure white light fear...HOLY CRAP I'M LOSING MY AIR!!!...followed by a sense of calm — I could actually feel my breathing slow down and my heartbeat dropping out of stratospheric levels — and a step-by-step execution of a "basic," shutting off the air, changing over my tanks' manifold to a new regulator, turning on the new regulator, all fine motor actions performed in a cramped space in the dark. Probably took much less time that it did to write it here.

• I walked into the "mud room" of a mountain market to be confronted by a bkier dude type who smiled and said quite fraternally, "Give me all your money." As he made his request his right hand went into the left side of his leather jacket. Startle, then  My right hand went into the left side of my leather jacket and I execute 2 "basics" —  step offline and a standard presentation from a crossdraw holster. I win and get to keep my money and my life; because biker dude type quickly responds to my verbal commands (another basic) he gets to keep living and visit the local jail.

It is always better to train like you intend to use the tool. I remember a training session with Rob at the old Valhalla facility against reactive targets. I hit one target twice, then twice more. Rob asked why I fired the extra shots, and I said, "Because it wasn't falling fast enough." If I have to shoot in the Real World, I have "programmed" myself to shoot decisively and end the fight right there.

A high-risk sports analogy...as a mountain guy I first learn to "self-arrest," that is, stop yourself from a wild slide or fall with your ice axe, in New Hampshire on fairly shallow slopes. From that session I understood the fundamentals (think "square range training") but I didnt think I was ready for big mountains. So I went to the water-ice coated fire roads outside of Ouray, CO (colder than brass balls in the Klondike, I might add) for a harsher training regimen (think "F-on-F"). In short — and for GOD'S SAKE don't try this at home, kids! — 2 trainers and I started hiking up a steep, totally iced-over fire road...they were several steps behind me carrying a 50-pound bag of rocks that was connected by 10-15 feet of rope to my climbing harness. I was instructed to look straight ahead and hike at a normal pace. At some point, my trainers threw the bag over the edge of the road, about a 50-foot drop into jagged rocks. The first I knew something was wrong was when I was snatched off my feet and jerked toward the drop. The drill was for me to self-arrest with my ice axe before I slid over the edge with the sack of rocks, then devise a rope system to free me and allow me to "rescue" the sack of rocks.

Big fun, I tell you! But when I punched through a crevass on Mt. McKinley the following year, I flawlessly self-arrested before my rope could snatch any of my team members off their feet (although I was irrationally happy to see them drop and self-arrest on their own to hold my fall if I needed it!).

I've said before that my depth of competitive experience and firearms training helped me deal with the Real World stresses of sports that could kill me. I was once surprised to read in an outdoors magazine that my veins apparently "flowed pure icewater." Totally untrue...I handle high stress well because I have specifically developed the tools necessary to allow me to function when I need to function. Relentlessly focus on the basics; constantly evaluate your training in Real World terms and take every opportunity to "innoculate" yourself against stress...

Michael B