I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[Steven Cline]

As a matter of fact, I do have a "valid point".

Then you've yet to post it.

You are new here and come across as a know it all blow hard,

Irrelevant.  I could be 12 years old or SF Tier 1 DEVGRU whatever.  The validity of my points stand alone, so do the points of every one else.  I'll blow as hard as I want. (I set that up for you)

You are the new kid on the block, no one here knows anything about you or your skill level.

Same, same.

Only that you have a big opinion of your self.

You think I have a big opinion of myself- that's strike three.  You keep presuming to know what I intend, and think, and ought to do and you keep being wrong.  I believe my points are valid.  That's different than having a big opinion of myself.  Follow? 

So doesn't Tex Grebner.

Did you mean "So does Tex Grebner (have a big opinion of himself)?  Whatsamatta?  Did I rattle ya?

Your opinion is meaningless unless the people reading it have a reason to think you know what you are talking about.

Flawed logic.  My argument stands on it's own merits.  Have you a problem understanding that?

At the moment they do not, while Pincus on the other hand is a known quantity.

And wrong.

He can even recognize a "cut and paste" if it's posted under the link to it.

I did rattle you.

Another thing, since you're the one coming into our community, no one gives a crap whether you're impressed or not.

Apparently you do, since it bothers you soooo much.


Hey, Tom, Rob and I both have BA's, and were commissioned officer's in the USAR, were both Deputies on Sheriff's departments...

Keep beggin' I'll fill you in with more info as I deem you worthy.  But I'll tease you with this- I shoot well enough to have a trophy wall, have won guns and frames being able to beat other shooters, a pretty high classification in USPSA, come on, don't you wanna know more?

[deepwater]

Then you've yet to post it.

Irrelevant.  I could be 12 years old or SF Tier 1 DEVGRU whatever.  The validity of my points stand alone, so do the points of every one else.  I'll blow as hard as I want. (I set that up for you)

Same, same.

You think I have a big opinion of myself- that's strike three.  You keep presuming to know what I intend, and think, and ought to do and you keep being wrong.  I believe my points are valid.  That's different than having a big opinion of myself.  Follow? 

Did you mean "So does Tex Grebner (have a big opinion of himself)?  Whatsamatta?  Did I rattle ya?
Flawed logic.  My argument stands on it's own merits.  Have you a problem understanding that?

And wrong.

I did rattle you.

Apparently you do, since it bothers you soooo much.


Hey, Tom, Rob and I both have BA's, and were commissioned officer's in the USAR, were both Deputies on Sheriff's departments...

Keep beggin' I'll fill you in with more info as I deem you worthy.  But I'll tease you with this- I shoot well enough to have a trophy wall, have won guns and frames being able to beat other shooters, a pretty high classification in USPSA, come on, don't you wanna know more?

hey new guy,...
here's a nice little thread called 'new member intro' just for you. how about introducing yourself and meeting the family?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
everyone here is open to discuss new ideas, politics and .... well. .... whatever you have to sell. good group here and always full of sarcasm and fun. the way life should be.   

oh yeah, as for Tom and such, don't worry, they are the most respected, most beloved members on this forum. if there is something to ask, ask Tom, he will not spout BS or propaganda. if he says something, he has already researched and found out all there is to find out about the subject. check him out. (prick)

Deepwater

[Steven Cline]

I was going to speak up earlier in the thread and make mention of all the super-realistic practices in the various shooting games that involve things like the pre-run walk-thru of the course of fire, the designated round counts, the see-trough mesh 'barricade" walls and such things that would prepare one for CCW.
Funny none of that happened the last time I had a gun pulled on me.

I was going to speak up earlier on all the experts on gun games that really aren't.  Thanks for affording a timely opportunity.

I did however make mention of correlation between walk throughs and mental prep as you walk down the street.

It's not a designated round count, it's a minimum round count.  One isn't restricted in most cases to that number of shots fired.  Other courses of fire up the stress by limiting the number of shots so that there are no make up shots.  Forcing a more even playing field between competitors in things like classifiers and helping establish a more honest test of shooting skill.  It forces a shooter to be honest with himself and his shooting skill.  It makes it burn a lot more when a self-perceived bad-ass faces the fact that the fat lawyer just kicked his ass with a gun.  We don't care what your resume is.  It's put or shut up time.  Shoot and live with the consequences.  We challenge that "false sense of confidence."

Wow, ya got the gamers with the mesh walls.  I didn't see any mess walls at the USPSA Nationals.  Only about half of the walls are mesh at my club- I guess gamers are just pretenders because they build walls which are easier to move and withstand wind more easily so that the match runs smoothly.  Since it's sarcasm and not real points I'll observe that it must be those mesh walls that make my draw sub 1 second, my splits sub 0.2 sec, allowed be to shoot the triple nickel 8 times in a row sub 5 sec., shoot pepper poppers at 50 yards without breaking a sweat... and not the 15k - 20k of rounds I shoot a year, the countless dry fires, the matches every weekend (almost).  Weren't no mesh walls the last time a gun was pulled on me neither- weren't no walls at all.  Just empty road.  I don't think you're points valid.

I do know that I wish I was as good of a shooter when I carried a commission as I am now, without a doubt I'm better prepared for carrying concealed or for carrying openly with a badge.

And every active LEO who is also a USPSA shooter will say the same thing.  

At some point during the gunfight all ya got is your shooting skill.  At that moment, you want it to be better than the guy trying to kill you as much as possible.

Oddly, that's how guys sell ya on spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a three day class with "him."  He promises to make ya a better shooter.

Like Tyler Durden observed earlier in this thread.  If you get better shooting USPSA or IDPA or Steel Challenge you're not giving "him" the money.

Deep down, most ninjas don't want to force on force with the gamers- it's why they limit the classes to LE/Mil only.  It protects egos.  He kinda already knows that the gamer is gonna draw faster, while moving and shoot better while moving, and shooter better at moving targets than him- cuz he practices it  ALL  THE   TIME.  And the ninja doesn't.

As I already observed.  I can always slow down, my shooting only gets better.  How come the ninja can't raise to the level of the competition?  He ain't got the skills if he ain't got the skills.

Thanks for the opportunity to submit more valid points for consideration.

[Steven Cline]

hey new guy,...
here's a nice little thread called 'new member intro' just for you.

Everybody here so arrogantly thinks they know what's best for me, knows what I'm thinking, knows what I've not done... yet they keep being wrong.  And what's this obsession with the resume?  As if Col. Cooper himself said the isosceles stance was an abomination that would make it true.  Uh, oops, he did say that and it ain't true.  So much for resumes.  Uh, hmmm.  Sorry for the thread drift.

I'll make the point simply for you and Tom and anyone else suffering the delusion; if you say 1+1=3, it ain't never gonna be true, no matter your background.

how about introducing yourself and meeting the family?
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
everyone here is open to discuss new ideas, politics and .... well. .... whatever you have to sell. good group here and always full of sarcasm and fun. the way life should be.  

oh yeah, as for Tom and such, don't worry, they are the most respected, most beloved members on this forum. if there is something to ask, ask Tom, he will not spout BS or propaganda. if he says something, he has already researched and found out all there is to find out about the subject. check him out. (prick)

Deepwater

Wow, yer uh... classy.  I'm certain calling some one a "prick" is a violation of the TOS... I just don't use the report to moderators function.

Yer post says more about you than one word ever says about me.

Other than calling me vulgar terms, have you something else ^valid to add to the discussion of how dangerous USPSA/IDPA shooting is to surviving a gun fight?

[Steven Cline]

What an awesome welcoming committee.   

Never let it be said that the DownRangeTV forums aren't open to intelligent discussion of points...  That personal attacks are avoided and the logic, rationale and merits of the posts are all that matter.

[Sponsor]

[Magoo541]

Steve,
I shot my first USPSA match last weekend in Limited with my stock XDM 45 & the plastic holsters that came with it, in fact I'm shooting another tomorrow and yes I got my @ss spanked last weekend(61st out of 75 that finished & 77 that started-21st overall in the Classifier though  ).  I agree that I'm more prepared to use a gun in self defense now than I was before the match BUT I'm not going to say that if people don't shoot competitions they are preparing to fail.  I spent a year as a bail bondsman and did my own recoveries and during that time I learned things that you will never see in a USPSA/IPSC/IDPA stage EVER!

As Masad Ayoob says, "Shooting competitions are not gunfights but gunfights are shooting competitions."

My $.02 and welcome to DRTV 

[Rastus]

I think the truth lies somewhere in the reality of taking what you've learned training (always learning, always training), applying that learning in much "realistic" practice, reflecting and learning from both your training and your practice and then using what works for you to avoid the dogma that slows you down.  Of course that much can be added too all of that too...but I am slow so I need to keep it simple so I can understand.

Different doctrines begin to emerge after you've spent some time training with people.  I'm just an old, fat engineer who loves to shoot and takes responsibility for my family and my own protection.  However, I have an avantage other's don't because I pass by a nationally recognized training center everyday to work and home...so I'm a member and I train.  There are different doctrines among the instructors there and I think it's great. 

There's a military door-kickin' doctrine from some of the guys from the sand box, a modified doctrine from some of the guys who have trained SF, another doctrine from police officers and then there's the guys who provide personal protection services.  I have benefited from all of the doctrines and improved my performance by mixing and matching what I've learned and applying it to a practice that reflects what my environment will most likely be. 

Some guys are steadfast in their doctrine of training only with the weapon you will be shooting.  For me..OK, I see some benefit but hogwash if you think that's an absolute for everyone.  I shoot a .22 to mix up my practice (and save money) and by shooting the lowly .22 in an odd mix I catch bad habits forming and work them out then go to my big gun and focus on working them out there....my shooting improved tremendously and if I had stayed with the doctrine of training with what you will be shooting I'd be way behind where I am now in my limited ability.  You may be different...that's OK...I do what works for me and you should do what works for you.

Another example, the military doctrine trainers have me on carbine moving the barrel down and on safe when moving from left-to-right or right-to-left for targets with a mix bad guys and friendlys...the personal protection people are adament about moving across and sweeping with the safety off because their bad guys kill friendlys more quickly (depending on situation of course) and you need to put lead downrange more quickly.  OK..I can see that, chaotic military conditions of combat of a force meeting a force versus a protection thing where the bad guys have infiltrated and have actuated plan where they are controlling the tempo and they know what the next move is as opposed to both sides needing to sort out who is what and where.  What's more applicable to me defending my family....if I'm in a crowd and sides are being chosen if I have a choice I'll take the military doctrine and if the bad guys have already chosen sides and are in motion with their plan I'll avoid the slower military doctrine for the personal protection doctrine if innocents are at immediate risk of certain death. 

There are probably only a very few things we can all agree on.  Like, maybe, we can all agree that leaving your ammo at home and carrying an unloaded concealed weapon is probably not going to be as effective in a life threatening self-defense moment as a loaded gun.

The best thing always....to avoid the bad situation you've found yourself in. 

[Steven Cline]

Steve,
I shot my first USPSA match last weekend in Limited with my stock XDM 45 & the plastic holsters that came with it, in fact I'm shooting another tomorrow and yes I got my @ss spanked last weekend(61st out of 75 that finished & 77 that started-21st overall in the Classifier though  ).  I agree that I'm more prepared to use a gun in self defense now than I was before the match BUT I'm not going to say that if people don't shoot competitions they are preparing to fail.  I spent a year as a bail bondsman and did my own recoveries and during that time I learned things that you will never see in a USPSA/IPSC/IDPA stage EVER!

As Masad Ayoob says, "Shooting competitions are not gunfights but gunfights are shooting competitions."

My $.02 and welcome to DRTV 

Thanks, Magoo.  Now imagine how much better you'll be a few years from now having shot a lot more matches and more importantly, gone out and practiced for USPSA's dynamic style of shooting. 

On a slight variation of what you posted, the only people I think are preparing to fail are those not preparing.  People who don't practice, don't challenge, don't stress themselves, are preparing to fail.  Unlike the OP, I don't think USPSA is the most dangerous thing I've ever seen.

Frankly, the OP's post was of questionable veracity.  Maybe his hot shots weren't my hot shots.  But I've never seen the hot shots use cover as a rest.  Sometimes hands go through ports if that's the only way to get the shot.  Most hot shots stay out of the ports as getting into and out of ports is slow and dangerous to gun functionality.  A thinking man understands not to place his gun around blind corners.

So USPSA shooters don't immediately unload at the end of their stage- they scan the targets for misses.  Other's don't, but it's a choice they make.  Not a requirement forced upon them.

Thanks for the reasoned response.  Have a great day.

 

[Steven Cline]

I think the truth lies somewhere in the reality of taking what you've learned training (always learning, always training), applying that learning in much "realistic" practice, reflecting and learning from both your training and your practice and then using what works for you to avoid the dogma that slows you down.  Of course that much can be added too all of that too...but I am slow so I need to keep it simple so I can understand.

Different doctrines begin to emerge after you've spent some time training with people.  I'm just an old, fat engineer who loves to shoot and takes responsibility for my family and my own protection.  However, I have an avantage other's don't because I pass by a nationally recognized training center everyday to work and home...so I'm a member and I train.  There are different doctrines among the instructors there and I think it's great. 

There's a military door-kickin' doctrine from some of the guys from the sand box, a modified doctrine from some of the guys who have trained SF, another doctrine from police officers and then there's the guys who provide personal protection services.  I have benefited from all of the doctrines and improved my performance by mixing and matching what I've learned and applying it to a practice that reflects what my environment will most likely be. 

Some guys are steadfast in their doctrine of training only with the weapon you will be shooting.  For me..OK, I see some benefit but hogwash if you think that's an absolute for everyone.  I shoot a .22 to mix up my practice (and save money) and by shooting the lowly .22 in an odd mix I catch bad habits forming and work them out then go to my big gun and focus on working them out there....my shooting improved tremendously and if I had stayed with the doctrine of training with what you will be shooting I'd be way behind where I am now in my limited ability.  You may be different...that's OK...I do what works for me and you should do what works for you.

Another example, the military doctrine trainers have me on carbine moving the barrel down and on safe when moving from left-to-right or right-to-left for targets with a mix bad guys and friendlys...the personal protection people are adament about moving across and sweeping with the safety off because their bad guys kill friendlys more quickly (depending on situation of course) and you need to put lead downrange more quickly.  OK..I can see that, chaotic military conditions of combat of a force meeting a force versus a protection thing where the bad guys have infiltrated and have actuated plan where they are controlling the tempo and they know what the next move is as opposed to both sides needing to sort out who is what and where.  What's more applicable to me defending my family....if I'm in a crowd and sides are being chosen if I have a choice I'll take the military doctrine and if the bad guys have already chosen sides and are in motion with their plan I'll avoid the slower military doctrine for the personal protection doctrine if innocents are at immediate risk of certain death. 

There are probably only a very few things we can all agree on.  Like, maybe, we can all agree that leaving your ammo at home and carrying an unloaded concealed weapon is probably not going to be as effective in a life threatening self-defense moment as a loaded gun.

The best thing always....to avoid the bad situation you've found yourself in. 

Morning Rastus,

Thank you for correctly identifying the dangers of dogma and dogmatic thinking, and, the value of training, learning, practicing.  The world needs more pragmatic thinking.

The shooting world and the ninja variants in particular seem rife with the next guy trying to have a stance or a grip named after him and becoming so dogmatic he's no longer thinking.

I start my classes with an introduction to Einstein...

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. -Albert Einstein

It's easy to over whelm someone with 10,000 different tactics for 200 different scenarios. 

What we do know is that if they are in a gun fight, they will need to be the best shooter they can be because their skills are going to degrade.  If not first, being the best shooter as a skill set is a very close second.  Like Magoo said.  The tactic of avoidance is best.  If they are shooting, it will be fast, furious, up close and most "tactics" won't be in play.  The tactic which will be in play is speed and accuracy.  Speed and accuracy is a fine tactic, probably the best.

USPSA shooters are fast and accurate... and thinking while doing it. 

 

[Timothy]

<<<<<<<Not a ninja...

Another fat-ish engineer who knows darn well that one gains proficiency and experience with practice and trigger time is the only thing that is going to make you more proficient with a firearm.  However one gains that proficiency, with the understanding that nothing ever happens the way we want it to, is better off than sitting on the couch watching training videos!

What others call a "dynamic critical incident", I call a "cluster f..k"!  It's always better to NOT be there when the SHTF but if you are, it's important to be able to hit what's aiming at you when you need to!

Welcome Steven, enjoy the party!