did M1 carbines really fail to penetrate chinese clothing at Chosin?

[TAB]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

[tombogan03884]

I'm surprised the Lt. didn't have an aneurism. Nothing sadder than a machine gun team yelling "Bang, Bang,Bang" during a Chinese charge.
FQ13

Hearing the Old man tell it he nearly did    
As I said, it was a quiet sector, and they knew they could get away with it.

Another time he said on of the rifle men came over to him with his ear all bloody, he said he was on watch  (by this time Korea had settled into WWI style trench warfare )  and saw this "little gook" hauling out the "longest f*cking rifle he'd ever seen", said he was so amazed seeing this little guy actually trying to aim this huge rifle that he forgot to duck and got nicked in the ear.

[kilopaparomeo]

I find it very difficult to believe that a 110 gr FMJ bullet running at 1900 fps MV wouldn't penetrate even 5-7 quilted / heavy wollen jackets.  Even if frozen.

Much more likely that these reports were a result of 1) misses , 2)ricochets 3) enemy hyped up on mix of adrenaline and/or drugs and not falling down 4) "GI lore"

Fail to disable and enemy?  Maybe.  Penetrate wool uniform...unlikely.

[tombogan03884]

 KPR, It was pretty much common knowledge based on personal observations of Korean Vet's I have talked with over the years, It's also commented on in both the Book "Coldest war" (James Brady ? ) and a recent American Rifleman article on Korean war weapons. The M1 carbine is a great little rifle, but the cartridge sux.

[r_w]

I find it very difficult to believe that a 110 gr FMJ bullet running at 1900 fps MV wouldn't penetrate even 5-7 quilted / heavy wollen jackets.  Even if frozen.

Much more likely that these reports were a result of 1) misses , 2)ricochets 3) enemy hyped up on mix of adrenaline and/or drugs and not falling down 4) "GI lore"

Fail to disable and enemy?  Maybe.  Penetrate wool uniform...unlikely.

You forgot bad ammo.

Korea is a different kind of cold--like San Francisco plus North Dakota rolled together.  NASTY.  Put a steel pot on your head and OMG it would be cold. 

[Sponsor]

[Blue Water]

My Dad was a WWII vet in the Pacific theater in the Artillery, so the M1 Carbine was his issued weapon. Because of that, the M1 carbine is a favorite of mine. I had asked him about that very thing before he passed away and it was his opinion that those so called reports were total B.S.

[tombogan03884]

Experience with the carbine in hot humid climates has no bearing at all on their performance in snow at -20 F.
As a reverse example look at the P39 Bell Airacobra fighter plane. American and British pilots in Burma thought they were sh!t due to their lousy performance in hot wet climates, Russian pilots however loved them in the colder climate of the Eastern front where they were the preferred aircraft of some of the highest scoring aces.
Another more recent example would be the Soviet/Russian laser aiming system on their T80 tanks, works fine in the colder Russian climate, but the ones bought by India performed so poorly that India canceled the contract.

[Solus]

We are really just guessing about what the composition of the uniforms.

Quilted implies the use of some type of batting inside the other layers and, for all we know, it might  have been a cotton and wire mesh sandwich they used for batting.  That would still have a lot of flexibility.

I am not sure what the effect of those cold temps would have either.  My guess would be that the steel rifle barrel would contract more than the copper/lead bullet which would constrict the bore raising resistance and pressure.  Don't know if the resistance would be enough to slow the round significantly without blowing the action.

On the other hand, if the bullet contracts more it would be a loose fit and perhaps enough pressure would be lost to make a velocity difference.

[kilopaparomeo]

Tombogan

I hesitate to say this, because it makes me sound like I'm calling vets liars...not my intent.  That said, I'm not sure I trust "personal recollections" of vets all that much.  There are MANY myths that float around that become legend in the military that are patently false.

M16s not requiring cleaning early in Vietnam is one...drill sargeants were even preaching this.  "The .45 will blow a man's arm clean off".  "All you have to do is hit a man with a .45 in the arm and it will kill him".  That little commie gun can't hit anything at 200 yards.  There are still recent vets who swear that the "5.56 tumbles in flight, that's why its so deadly".  Urban legends are hard to stamp out and even make it into literature.

If I can see proven scientific evidence, I'm happy to eat my words.  

[usmcdadx2]

What a timely post, as it happens there is a crusty old vet who wears a "Chosin Few" hat everywhere comes into where I work several times a month and he was here today, so I asked him about this. He served with the USMC 3/7 and was there as he says for the "whole shebang". Quote: "anyone who says the 30 carbine couldn't punch holes through chink uniforms is full of s***... it punched through just fine! The problem was it didn't usually kill the little f***s very good!" According to him the problem with the 30 carbines was "ammo that didn't always go bang, poor maintainence and they didn't work worth a damn in the cold".