did M1 carbines really fail to penetrate chinese clothing at Chosin?

[twyacht]

Overcome and adapt. Putting aircraft aluminum, boiler plate, scrap steel, metal decking, whatever. Think about it,....we would do the same. Regardless of political crap.

We would make our own also, in the face of our enemy. Whatever it takes. I'm not condoning it, but merely pointing out a fundamental self preservation instinct that would strike us as a necessity when faced with the same scenario.

[blackwolfe]

I think there was a company or individual was converting M-1 carbines to .45 Winchester Mag about 30-35 years ago. I think they stopped after having problems with receivers cracking.  It was a looooong tome ago that I resd about, so I may not have the details correct.

Just googled it.  It was Lemag Corp.  45 Winchester Mag.  Standard magazine feed lips were altered.

Another edit:  Found this write up on M-1 Carbine conversions.

http://www.thegunzone.com/carbine-wildcat.html

Frank,  Lemag was/is in Fenton MI.

[Big Frank]

I think there was a company or individual was converting M-1 carbines to .45 Winchester Mag about 30-35 years ago. I think they stopped after having problems with receivers cracking.  It was a looooong tome ago that I resd about, so I may not have the details correct.

Just googled it.  It was Lemag Corp.  45 Winchester Mag.  Standard magazine feed lips were altered.

It wasn't that long ago. It didn't seem to kick too bad but it bruised my shoulder.

[billt]

Experience with the carbine in hot humid climates has no bearing at all on their performance in snow at -20 F.

Very true. I think the cold weather has more to do with the poor performance of the .30 Carbine ammunition than what the enemy was wearing. Extreme cold can have a very detrimental effect on the performance of ammo. Especially back in the 40's when powder technology was nowhere near as advanced as it is today. A lot of the newer double based, modern powders perform better in extreme cold, and are less sensitive to it, but are still effected by it in a negative way.

A maximum load in 100+ degree temperatures could in fact become a dangerous overload. In the other extreme in very cold weather, performance could be effected to the point where velocity was poor enough to cause reduced penetration. I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine, and in just playing around with it, one of the things that impressed me the most about it was it's ability to penetrate. It had no trouble penetrating 8" diameter fence posts and trees much the same. This was in the Summer with temperatures over 100 degrees. One of the downsides to the Ruger Blackhawk in this caliber is the difficult extraction that sometimes goes along with shooting high pressure ammo in it. I have gotten into the habit of taking along a small diameter Aluminum rod and a plastic mallet to tap out some of the more stubborn cases, instead of continually banging on the ejector rod. I noticed when I shoot the gun in the Winter, or with my handloads, this does not occur.  Bill T.

[PupSter]

I was wondering about the weather and how it might effect the ammo, BUT not just a cold thing. Different metals expand & contract differently with hot/cold. I wonder if that could have contaminated the powder in the rounds, specialty going in & out of "warm" tents & buildings and back to the freezing cold...

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

I was wondering about the weather and how it might effect the ammo, BUT not just a cold thing. Different metals expand & contract differently with hot/cold. I wonder if that could have contaminated the powder in the rounds, specialty going in & out of "warm" tends & buildings and back to the freezing cold...

That was why my Dad ditched his.  Said if you went into a bunker then back outside it froze up solid. The metal would sweat in the warmer bunker and the condensation would freeze when you took it back outside. Either the Garand  didn't have that problem, (doubtful, steel will react the same regardless ) or the 06 cartridge had enough oomph to overcome it.

[PupSter]

That was why my Dad ditched his.  Said if you went into a bunker then back outside it froze up solid. The metal would sweat in the warmer bunker and the condensation would freeze when you took it back outside. Either the Garand  didn't have that problem, (doubtful, steel will react the same regardless ) or the 06 cartridge had enough oomph to overcome it.

The '60 might not have the same issues, alot more powder (and a different type of powder?) so percentage wise, less would be effected by any moisture that got thru, past the bullet.  Also, the 30-06 round is longer and seated better then the 30 carbine round is. How it's make... If you look at the bullet profiles, I think you'll see what I mean...  The carbine bullet is shot and smooth sided, not alot for the cartridge neck to "grip" vs the '06 round, alot longer, same caliber and ridges for the case to "grip"...

[tombogan03884]

I had not thought of the effect on the powder, his comments were about the action, same rules should apply though with heat and cold   

[PupSter]

I had not thought of the effect on the powder, his comments were about the action, same rules should apply though with heat and cold   

Yes, same effect on the metal and condensation and that dampness has to go someplace. I'll toss out there to add that to the cloth mag & ammo holders of the day... Just sounds like it could add to the issues...

[tombogan03884]

Interesting point, look at how a soda can will "weep". Then consider that powder attracts moisture.....