A question for all here

[tombogan03884]

Does that mean you go to the Home Depot parking lot when you need a plumber or an electrician? Habla espaniol? Union certification means you actually get a master plumber or master electrician. No we don't need unionized maids or dishwashers, but a union (guild) is essential for some trades.

Not at all true. You can not find Union plumbers or electricians in Me. or NH. Except at the ship yard which is notorious for inefficiency.
There may be some Spanish speakers in the 2 bigger cities but in the other 98% of the state it's all American.
A lot of people here just do their own, and have the Building inspector OK it. Very few fires from electrical work.

[Timothy]

Does that mean you go to the Home Depot parking lot when you need a plumber or an electrician? Habla espaniol? Union certification means you actually get a master plumber or master electrician. No we don't need unionized maids or dishwashers, but a union (guild) is essential for some trades.

We don't have these issues here.  Are there illegals doing this type of work?  Probably, but even if I needed an electrician or plumber, I'd just look in the phone book and verify the trade license of the guy or gal I hire for the work.  Licensing in the trade is sufficient which nullifies the reason for a union.

Personally, I do my own electrical work, plumbing work, rough carpentry, mechanical systems, etc....always have as these are the things that any man should be able to accomplish with a bit of study and a decent manual or guide.  Here, we can do the work, with a valid permit and just get it blessed by the Inspector.  I've done several homes electrical work and none have burned down yet.  Plumbing is no different, roofing, you name it.

My father was a journeyman tool and die maker at GM.  It was pretty well known that if you earned your Journeyman card at GM, which he did, he probably wasn't qualified to work in an independent tool and die shop.  He would have had to start at the bottom and learn the trade all over again.  Mediocrity....

I know this to be true as my two closet friends, men I've known for 53 years, own tool and die shops in MI and wouldn't hire a laid off GM die maker if they could avoid it.

[crusader rabbit]

Okay, let me be perfectly clear...  Here in the South, the very word union is not highly thought of.  Ever since the War of Northern Aggression, union has meant pillage, rape, destruction.  From the activity in Wisconson, it would appear that nothing has changed.

This Rabbit has no use for anything union.  Eliminate them all, and let the market sort out the proper wage and benefit for somebody's job skills.

[tombogan03884]

We don't have these issues here.  Are there illegals doing this type of work?  Probably, but even if I needed an electrician or plumber, I'd just look in the phone book and verify the trade license of the guy or gal I hire for the work.  Licensing in the trade is sufficient which nullifies the reason for a union.

Personally, I do my own electrical work, plumbing work, rough carpentry, mechanical systems, etc....always have as these are the things that any man should be able to accomplish with a bit of study and a decent manual or guide.  Here, we can do the work, with a valid permit and just get it blessed by the Inspector.  I've done several homes electrical work and none have burned down yet.  Plumbing is no different, roofing, you name it.

My father was a journeyman tool and die maker at GM.  It was pretty well known that if you earned your Journeyman card at GM, which he did, he probably wasn't qualified to work in an independent tool and die shop.  He would have had to start at the bottom and learn the trade all over again.  Mediocrity....

I know this to be true as my two closet friends, men I've known for 53 years, own tool and die shops in MI and wouldn't hire a laid off GM die maker if they could avoid it.

I was not sure about Ma. and Ct.
All you have to know about plumbing is 4 things any idiot can remember.
Hot on the left
Cold on the right
Sh!t runs down hill
Don't bite your fingernails 

Okay, let me be perfectly clear...  Here in the South, the very word union is not highly thought of. Ever since the War of Northern Aggression, union has meant pillage, rape, destruction.  From the activity in Wisconson, it would appear that nothing has changed.

This Rabbit has no use for anything union.  Eliminate them all, and let the market sort out the proper wage and benefit for somebody's job skills.

You're just jealous. 

[Pecos Bill]

Thanks for all the replies, guys I hope no one took any of this too much to heart, none of this was meant to get personal.

Let me clarify a bit some of what I wrote: I am in favor of abolishing the unions as they are now. The idea of a "union" is, I think, good. What we have now is not good. I grew up in a union household. I was a member of two unions, one only briefly the other for more years than I care to count sometimes. The first had my boss on the union board, the second was run locally by people who worked for the company. Neither were very effective. I have worked the last several years in a non-union environment and let me tell you in two of those I and my fellow workers were treated like dirt. The last, where I still work, is a good place. We need to completely revamp the union system in this country and go back to what they were originally. To completely abolish the unions and never have anything as such again would be a major mistake and would only put us back to the pre depression era and the "company store" attitude of business leaders. A major step back!

Should we have closed shops? I don't think so though I will say that one of the union jobs I had was not a closed shop and those who didn't join the union and didn't pay dues got the same pay and benefits I did. Is that fair? Frankly I don't think so but I had to live with it.

Are unions socialist? I don't think so. Do they take food away from the poor? I don't think so. Now before Tombogan blows a fuse let me remind you this is not meant to be personal. I don't think unions are any more socialist than is the present system of government we now have. Think guys, our government is taking a good portion of our taxes and giving it to people who don't seem to want to work. The government is also encouraging corporate america to move jobs off shore and the major reason is that the unions have priced themselves out of the market. I don't know if that's socialism or not but it doesn't seem to be too good for the country. Perhaps we need to have business and labor get together and figure out that if the corporate heads give up their multi-million dollar salaries and labor would agree to a reduction we could afford to have most of these jobs back and everyone would benefit. Is that socialist or is that a good idea? I don't know.

Before I close this rant let's go to a little history. There was some heated discussion about the start of unions and how they became what they are and when. If you all take a close look at history you will find that the first "unions" were the guilds in Europe. They set the standard for work quality, price for goods and services, and tended to force non-members out of the business. Sounds a lot like our present unions.

Now I've tried to explain my position on unions and I hope I made my self clear. If not my apologies. This is the last I will post on unions so I hope I'm understood.

Pecos

I did stir the pot though didn't I?

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Thing is Pecos, Guilds not only set the prices but they also maintained standards of quality and required their members to achieve certain skill levels in order to qualify for higher wages.
A master piece was a piece the guild member did for his guild to demonstrate that he had mastered his craft.
The purpose of the Guild was to improve and promote a skill, craft or trade.

Union workers simply show up every day to milk whatever the Union managed to guage out of the employer, doing just enough, good enough work to not get fired until they can go out on a shady disability , or if they have to stick it out that long, a pension.
Mean while WE are paying for it higher prices, for lower quality. While Union money goes into every single one of the political items that we bitch about here.

[billt]

Unions in general are a lot like sex, drugs, and alcohol. Just because a little is good, it doesn't mean more is better, and too much is just enough. Much like the above, unions are very easily abused to the point of causing destruction. If everyone could moderate their intake of drugs and alcohol, as well as their desire for sex, there would be no problem with any of it. The problems come from over indulgence, (Charlie Sheen). Labor unions operate much the same. Good in concept, (fair wage for equally fair labor), but quickly get out of control in practice.  Bill T.

[Frosty]

In a word - no.

Minimum manning on first responding trucks is a safety issue. Period. One that bean counters would like to ignore.
The a/c unit isn't going to crush them after all, and it costs money to properly man trucks. My department follows regs that require 4 guys on the truck. 2 go in and 2 are in place for immediate rescue of the first 2 if needed. That would not be in place if it weren't for the union demanding it.

Rural Metro used to show up at fires with 2 guys on the truck who worked the fire as best they could until someone else showed up. By then, there was no safe way to do an interior attack because it was too far gone. Your house or business in now a parking lot.
Rural Metro was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance to NFPA 1710, 1720 by them going union.

Let me state I am NOT a union flag waver. I saw up close and personal how the union pets were treated, many should have been fired.
I was never one of the 'pets', I was one of the thorns in their side.
They waste a shitload of money, be it fed $ or local $. That has to stop.  
I despise the fat cats that currently lead the IAFF. Their leftwing agenda is sickening. That was the reason I stopped my PAC contributions years ago. I wasn't going to pay extra for the IAFF to support a tax & spend DemoRat. They used part of my dues to support dems and I think it sucks.

The only thing I can and do support is safety issues for first responders.
Who is going to negotiate that? The City Council? The Finance dept bean counters?

Baby - Bathwater.  Know the difference.

Hey Kmitch - I'm with ya Brother, member IAFF for 29 yrs. If we didn't have the IAFF yours and my safety fighting fires would be questionable. This is where I feel the IAFF differs from say the UAW, IBEW and other unions. I don't suppot the PAC funds because they give my $ to stupid politicians. Most people in America don't have a clue what is involved and what we are exposed to on a daily basis ie: fires with many carcinogens present, handling Haz/Mats - chemicals, bombs, radiological exposure, meth labs and much more, the EMS calls with blood born pathogens Hep-A, HEP-B & C, AIDS, tuberculosus, and many other unknowns.
It's funny because the citizens call us they damn well want us there ASAP to save their house, their business, save their loved ones with the heart attack and more. I'm not berating any volunteers by any means, but larger cities usually have paid fulltime F/F's and when cities get larger the mayor and other so called leaders want to penny pinch our safety and our lives, our equipment and training.