What do we do?

[tombogan03884]

"What if I am only in fear of being punched in the mouth or pushed or kicked."

I'm 51 years old and I could kick a person to death with out working up much of a sweat.  I could kill with a variety of single punches, and I'm not particularly highly trained.
Your 70, a good cussing could induce a fatal heart attack.
You have to survive to be effected by consequences.
Get your priorities straight.

[kmitch200]

" 2.  You must be reasonably in immediate fear of "death or great bodily harm;"  The "reasonable man" would be fearful of death or debilitating bodily harm as a result of the continuing situation."

This is what I'm talking about. What if I am only in fear of being punched in the mouth or pushed or kicked. Certainly those could cause debilitating bodily harm but they would not be easily defended in court without stretching the truth. How much superficial damage ( non debilitating badly harm) would you allow an assailant to inflict on you before you resorted to deadly force?

We all have our own line in the sand, and that can change from day to day. Just had back surgery? You are now very debilitated until you heal up. In 3 months you may be feeling fine.
Punched by one person is one thing, punched by 3 or 10 is a whole 'nother ball game. Disparity of force, whether by size of the assailant or numbers of BGs is not an unknown to the legal system.

I have a close friend that was involved in a road rage incident where the other driver got out of his car with a billyclub in his hand, and started to approach my friends car. My friend stepped out of his car and put his revolver in the holster on his belt , he had the pistol in a holster in the car, when the other driver saw the pistol being put into the holster he got back in his car and drove off. Is that brandishing?

Not in my state and I'm sure many others. That is a response to a deadly weapon being displayed by someone else.

[Herknav]

Of course, I would ask why your friend didn't just drive away.  He chose to put himself in the situation with the billyclub (unless there are omitted details that say otherwise.)

[DGF]

 Tom, I may not be as frail as you might think, I believe I could still absorb a bit of punishment, I may even still be able to dish out a bit.

This Flash Mob thing  is a relatively new phenomenon. Several stores in this area have been looted by flash mobs of juveniles. Unless there happens to be a squad of policemen handy there is nothing the store owner can do other than hope the security cameras will be able to help capture them later. He certainly cannot shoot them.

 It not like the cut and dried self defense situations we are accustomed to. Kick in my front door and enter my house and Threat-Bang. Attempt to mug me or car jack me and Threat-Bang. Pull a knife and Threat-Bang. I would really like to see MB tackle this problem, include his lawyers and explore the possibilities.

What do you do when you see a mob of kids running towards you at full speed and you for some reason cannot get out of their way? Do you start shooting or do you let them run over you? That certainly would be a situation where you could fear a debilitating injury.

[DGF]

" Of course, I would ask why your friend didn't just drive away.  He chose to put himself in the situation with the billyclub (unless there are omitted details that say otherwise.)"

There are omitted details. They happened to be in traffic and my friend was unable to drive off the other car was able to turn a corner and disappear.

[Sponsor]

[Badgersmilk]

Tom, I may not be as frail as you might think, I believe I could still absorb a bit of punishment, I may even still be able to dish out a bit.

This Flash Mob thing  is a relatively new phenomenon. Several stores in this area have been looted by flash mobs of juveniles. Unless there happens to be a squad of policemen handy there is nothing the store owner can do other than hope the security cameras will be able to help capture them later. He certainly cannot shoot them.

 It not like the cut and dried self defense situations we are accustomed to. Kick in my front door and enter my house and Threat-Bang. Attempt to mug me or car jack me and Threat-Bang. Pull a knife and Threat-Bang. I would really like to see MB tackle this problem, include his lawyers and explore the possibilities.

What do you do when you see a mob of kids running towards you at full speed and you for some reason cannot get out of their way? Do you start shooting or do you let them run over you? That certainly would be a situation where you could fear a debilitating injury.

If I may, I STRONGLY suggest you remove from your thought pattern that "kids" deserve any special / more delicate handling.  Teenagers always have been, and always will be testing what they can get away with, and will push and push until someone pushes back.  In a civilized society, who do you suppose "Public Enemy #1" really is?  Who's committing more crimes than anyone else?  Because they KNOW they'll get "special treatment", and get away with anything they want with most people!

When I first meet any of my teenagers male friends I enjoy nonchalantly working into conversation how easy it is to permanently cripple or kill someone without leaving visible marks...  We always seem to get along just fine after that!  Lots of "Yes Sir"s, "No Sir"s.   

[tombogan03884]

Tom, I may not be as frail as you might think, I believe I could still absorb a bit of punishment, I may even still be able to dish out a bit.

This Flash Mob thing  is a relatively new phenomenon. Several stores in this area have been looted by flash mobs of juveniles. Unless there happens to be a squad of policemen handy there is nothing the store owner can do other than hope the security cameras will be able to help capture them later. He certainly cannot shoot them.

 It not like the cut and dried self defense situations we are accustomed to. Kick in my front door and enter my house and Threat-Bang. Attempt to mug me or car jack me and Threat-Bang. Pull a knife and Threat-Bang. I would really like to see MB tackle this problem, include his lawyers and explore the possibilities.

What do you do when you see a mob of kids running towards you at full speed and you for some reason cannot get out of their way? Do you start shooting or do you let them run over you? That certainly would be a situation where you could fear a debilitating injury.

If you do wind up in court I hope your smart enough to play that down.    
Joking aside, being 70 is an "aggravating condition"  same as if you were gay, or black.
There are enhanced penalties because the law assumes you are less mobile, bones more brittle, other medical conditions etc.
And yes it is cut and dried, numbers are a weapon in themselves.
 MB did address this a few months ago, talking about the guy in NY with 30 MS-13 supporters on his lawn yelling threats.
He fired an AK into the ground, and they took him to jail. (He was recently acquitted )
Even Mike Janich is not going to win hand to hand with 15 or 20 teens.
After further thought I will add that it is exactly the same as the Army trained you for.
The goal is to die in bed of old age.

[Rastus]

I think we are talking about a complex situation here, not one that goes Threat-Bang. We are talking about a situation where even a police officer could not apply deadly force. If a police officer killed an unarmed assailant, with some exceptions, he would probably be facing a jury, and likely some prison time.
<snip>
I would like to see MB tackle this question on TBD.

The first portion still boils down to, do you think your life or family's life is threatened.  To put it bluntly, the decision is on you there is no magic formula for this situation.  Shooting someone to avoid an ass whipping is not justified...but as enunciated by other's here some states, like Oklahoma, make an allowance for age and/or physical condition. 

For me it really is a simple threat bang...you must assess if what you face is a deadly threat.  If my wife, for instance, is facing a deadly threat then it is bang until the threat is gone and go through the system because I will be held accountable.  If I would need to shoot because life is threatened, then I will shoot and submit myself to the legal system.  I know that if I hesitate from a mob threat I may get to watch my loved one die horrible death and be urinated on by 10 or 15 hoodlums.  Ugly, but I have seen gangs in action and the results..no scars on my part but on friends who were not aware of their environment.

MB did tackle this on a podcast a few weeks ago.  You can glean much from his podcasts.   He was quite clear in his estimation, not a legal estimation, that a mob by virtue of a mob is a lethal threat.  I agree with him 100%. 

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-220-mob-violence/10511/

I think you have decided to not shoot until violence has been transferred to you or your wife in the form of physical contact. 

[Badgersmilk]

[Solus]

It is not my responsibility to "take a beating" from anyone no matter how well I might be able to absorb the punishment regardless of what age, sex, race or creed or national origin  they may be.

Ohio has a "brandishing" law and if the intent of a charging mob wasn't perfectly clear, within the law I could place my hand upon my unexposed weapon and let the mob know they were threatening me and that should they come closer, I'd defend myself.

Further, I'd risk the brandishing charge should the mob continue to close by presenting my weapon and repeating my warning, if there was time.  Firing a round safely into the ground might help, but it might hurt in court, portrayed as a reckless act.

It is not in my abilities to read the minds of the members of the mob and discern their true intent.  If I believe they are threatening me and lethal force is needed for my self protection, I will use it and do so with moral certainty.  I'll face the legal consequences, if any, after I've survived the threat.

If you are not sure of the extent of the violent intentions of a charging mob, you are free to risk life and limb to give them the benefit of the doubt and avoid the legal consequences.  I'd discuss it with your wife, though, to be sure she is just as willing to get kicked and beaten and maybe killed for the sake of not misunderstanding the exuberant youths.