What do we do?

[tombogan03884]

"charging mob" pretty much says it all. Would we be satisfied if they wore shirts saying "We're gonna kick your azz" ?

[Solus]

"charging mob" pretty much says it all. Would we be satisfied if they wore shirts saying "We're gonna kick your azz" ?

They might get a by if they were all dressed in Marathon Race T's and shorts....and I noticed the sidewalks were full of folks cheering them on.

[DGF]

As it says in the newspaper article the mob was running down the street punching people as they went by, stopping to kick a few as well. They apparently dragged some people out of their cars.

Drug out of a car? No way, Bang. Kicked? No way, Bang. Punched as they ran by? Not much you can do about that without shooting them in the back, and thats not a good idea.

I was brought up to respect my elders, and I always have. Now that I am an Elder I find that I have become, not one to be respected, but prey. It is a strange world we have inherited. I remember growing up and reading stories about the days when wolves roamed the streets of villages at night and it was wise to keep your doors and windows locked. Are we approaching something similar today, where young people roam in packs and feed on the helpless? Just yesterday a young (17 year old) robbed and stabbed to death a blind man in Balt.. What does that say about society?

Rather than the world becoming a safer place I do believe that it has become more dangerous and unprdictable. I mean that from a physical prospective as well as referring to our legal system.

[tombogan03884]

I got no problem with shooting the animals in the back. Might put a 2nd to the head if I'm sure there's no cameras around.

[Solus]

DGF,

I carry a Blackthorn Walking Stick from Cold Steel when ever I am out and about, even though I don't physically need it yet.

It's a nice handy club that any senior citizen can carry without risk of weapons charges...yet.

It would both be a defense and a warning in the situation about which you are concerned.   Beating an aggressive young punk off with your cane seems, by definition, an act of reasonable self defense, as long as you don't live in Great Brittan.

You can find one here and a video about it's effective use here. http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html

Might make a nice non-lethal (maybe) addition to your carry gear.

Might deter those looking to attack you...and if they take it from you, that shows non friendly intent.  Use it with your off hand to ward off an attacker with your primary hand on your weapon.  When the punk grabs at it and says he is gonna beat you with it, shoot him.

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

DGF,

You are asking a very complex question that has no specific answer.  It is an incident by incident situation, and it will change everytime the charactors change.  It is also a legal nightmare for anyone giving advice.  I will not tell you that it is ok to shoot in that situation, and neither will anyone else that teaches.  You will just get refered to the list I gave or a similar one for the jurisdiction the person trains under.

In your description of "just getting punched" I would say that your wording takes away the fear of immediate death, and it also raises the question of if lesser force would do.  Ignoring the situation and only looking at how you describe it I would say you have no legal foot to stand on concerning the use of lethal force or even drawing your gun (the reasonable man who will most likely be an anti-gun and anti-carry man in the jury).

You will not get Michael to give you clear cut lines and direction in anything he produces.  If you follow The Best Defense you will see MB, MJ and RP, along with all the other experts they bring in, get very cautious and conservative on the carrying and use of weapons.  This is because if they say something is ok on their show and you do it, they will end up in court defending themselves.  If I tell you it is ok to do something in a given setting on this board and you do it I could very likely end up in the hot seat based on my "professional standing" in giving that advice.

All I will tell you is to know the laws of your State and local jurisdiction, know the rules of the setting you are in, stay alert, avoid trouble whenever possible, work to defuse issues, and if something does happen take a really long deep breath and think before you say anything to anyone about what happened.  In a stress situation your preception of time, distance, speed and sound are distorted, and you need your adrenaline to settle down before you say anything to anyone at the scene or away from the scene about what took place.  This is an area where I would prefer to error on the side of Masad Ayob, and tell law enforcement the very basics (there it the guy, he came at me with a gun, knife, club or whatever, I shot him out of fear for my life, I will cooperate fully, but I really need to speak with my attorney).  Even if the attorney does nothing to change what you say, the time it takes for them to arrive clears you mind and system, and the attorney will also know everything you said about the incident.  Nothing worse than your statement five minutes after the event not matching the statement an hour later after you mind clears and perspective returns.

I know this is clear as mud when you are looking for crystal.  But as we start everyone of our classes "If you think you are uncertain about carrying a gun now - Wait till we get done with you today."

[DGF]

Thank you M58. That is what I was getting at. It is a very complex problem, unlike most cut and dried self defense situations, if there is, in fact, a cut and dried self defense situation. Here at Quantico they built a small village where, with the use of actors, they put military and law enforcement people through shoot or no shoot exercises. They discuss the results of the exercise after the fact. It might be good for CC civilians to have the opportunity to take those same type of classes. The Flash Mob phenomenon might be a good subject for those classes. It would, of course, have to be done with a waiver of liability.

Solus, I do carry a stick, in fact I have several. One I made from a heavy stockman's cane copying the grandmaster cane made by Canemasters. The cane I carry most frequently is a Bubba Sick found on line. It has as a handle the brass Hame from a horse harness. It fits my hand well,it is attractive without being menacing. With the brass handle it balances well with the stick and has enough heft to give you a level of confidence. I have Janich's video on cane self defense which I heartily recommend, and practice regularly to get some exercise .However if the thump doesn't suffice perhaps the bang will. I usually carry both. I have heard good things about Cold Steel. I particularly like their sword cane. Too bad it is illegal.

[Pathfinder]

It is not my responsibility to "take a beating" from anyone no matter how well I might be able to absorb the punishment regardless of what age, sex, race or creed or national origin  they may be.

Ohio has a "brandishing" law and if the intent of a charging mob wasn't perfectly clear, within the law I could place my hand upon my unexposed weapon and let the mob know they were threatening me and that should they come closer, I'd defend myself.

Further, I'd risk the brandishing charge should the mob continue to close by presenting my weapon and repeating my warning, if there was time.  Firing a round safely into the ground might help, but it might hurt in court, portrayed as a reckless act.

It is not in my abilities to read the minds of the members of the mob and discern their true intent.  If I believe they are threatening me and lethal force is needed for my self protection, I will use it and do so with moral certainty.  I'll face the legal consequences, if any, after I've survived the threat.

If you are not sure of the extent of the violent intentions of a charging mob, you are free to risk life and limb to give them the benefit of the doubt and avoid the legal consequences.  I'd discuss it with your wife, though, to be sure she is just as willing to get kicked and beaten and maybe killed for the sake of not misunderstanding the exuberant youths.

In general, I agree with your post. The one area I would quibble with is highlighted. You draw your weapon to defend yourself, not to display your weapon or as a warning. And most of all - There are NO warning shots - that is Hollywood crap. You draw to defend, you shoot the one(s) attacking you to stop the attack. Period.

[MikeBjerum]

It is not my responsibility to "take a beating" from anyone no matter how well I might be able to absorb the punishment regardless of what age, sex, race or creed or national origin  they may be.

Ohio has a "brandishing" law and if the intent of a charging mob wasn't perfectly clear, within the law I could place my hand upon my unexposed weapon and let the mob know they were threatening me and that should they come closer, I'd defend myself.

Further, I'd risk the brandishing charge should the mob continue to close by presenting my weapon and repeating my warning, if there was time.  Firing a round safely into the ground might help, but it might hurt in court, portrayed as a reckless act.

It is not in my abilities to read the minds of the members of the mob and discern their true intent.  If I believe they are threatening me and lethal force is needed for my self protection, I will use it and do so with moral certainty.  I'll face the legal consequences, if any, after I've survived the threat.

If you are not sure of the extent of the violent intentions of a charging mob, you are free to risk life and limb to give them the benefit of the doubt and avoid the legal consequences.  I'd discuss it with your wife, though, to be sure she is just as willing to get kicked and beaten and maybe killed for the sake of not misunderstanding the exuberant youths.

Reckless discharge of a firearm - I don't know of a jurisdiction that would let you off on that one!

[Solus]

In general, I agree with your post. The one area I would quibble with is highlighted. You draw your weapon to defend yourself, not to display your weapon or as a warning. And most of all - There are NO warning shots - that is Hollywood crap. You draw to defend, you shoot the one(s) attacking you to stop the attack. Period.

Didn't mean to indicate I would fire a shot into the ground, just pointing out less than lethal options that might work and their legal drawbacks.