Remember how NDAA "doesn't do that"?

[tombogan03884]

You didn't get any from me, as I recall, but the silly bastard didn't get mistreated when he deployed himself to the battlefield to shoot at American Soldiers. They killed his ass just like they would have any other SOB stupid enough to pull that kind of crap.. He volunteered for the post. Nobody forced him..

Since he was not killed in battle, he was specifically targeted for assassination, your approval of that means you think it IS OK to do what the NDAA is incorrectly claimed to allow.
Locking a citizen up indefinitely with out trial is a hell of a lot less extreme than killing a citizen with out trial.
Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

[santahog]

Since he was not killed in battle, he was specifically targeted for assassination, your approval of that means you think it IS OK to do what the NDAA is incorrectly claimed to allow.
Locking a citizen up indefinitely with out trial is a hell of a lot less extreme than killing a citizen with out trial.
Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

Do you equate a guy who had declared to have, and in fact had gone overseas to actively fight against deployed US Military, to US Citizens on US soil organizing to, and in fact lobbying the Government for redress of grievances? Really?
So you believe that joining Oath Keepers should be treated the same by the Government as joining Al Qaeda?
The Government, or at least the Administration is moving quickly towards treating these two the same. You say that I have to do the same in order to be intellectually consistant?
Are you a terrorist? You disagree with the actions and attitudes of the Government. So did he. If I were still a soldier and you paid me a visit in Iraq to put a round or shrapnel in my gut, would I be out of line in in removing the bulk of your cranium or center mass? 
Now, you  want me to treat you the same for talking on a forum dedicated to returning the government to the Constitutional framework from which it was taken, to you shooting some Specialist in a Motorpool in Kabul. I simply don't treat those two the same. You say we should?

As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that. I don't love air so much that I would give my liberty to keep it. Screw that.. The French do that, not me.. I can gain more in death for myself and all of us, than sitting in a box somewhere, as long as I can make the guy who just followed orders to pay his mortgage think about "WHY" what he's doing is a good idea..
What was that NH Motto? Live Free or Die? Sometimes I think you guys forget why the country exists in the first place..

Don't get lost in my incoherent rambling, please.. I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO. I can't make what you're asking me say anything else. If I'm wrong in that summation of your position, please let me know..



I feel like plugging this in here, even though it doesn't quite fit here..
I spent 2010, (along with personal reasons,) having seen the writing on the wall, making a life for myself in Chile.
I had a reliable truck, frineds, a place to live, a chruch home, permanent residency and enough to live modestly on VA Disability.. I couldn't do it.. I'm an American and I couldn't do the Ex-Pat thing. I either left or spent all that I had to get my wife in and me back, so I could do this.. Fight for the remnant of the idea of being a free American..
That country has the largest population of Palestinians outside of Jordan and Israel, as many Jews, tons of old NAZIs and two generations hence, and very few Americans, almost nobody of African extraction, a "mafia" but no "gangs", no real drug problems, a modest culture where nobody was starving, cheap healthcare that's as good as it is here, the Cops carry Taurus .38s with no extra rounds, and everybody got along just fine.. (And except for the Communists, they still love Americans)
Chile wasn't perfect, but we should be so fortunate to have such peace in our culture here.. (It was like here in the 50s, but without the wife-beaters.)

[Rastus]

Jumping in 1/2 cocked as I do at times, there are great guys in disagreement here.  My take on things is that US Citzens should receive their protections....if I guy on the battlefield is US and shooting at US soldiers it's like the same guy here shooting at police....just so far in recent history it's been in another country.  If the guy overseas is a shooter and is hanging around with a group of bad guy shooters that endanger troops I paint that in like context, rightly or wrongly, as a gang member of a gang gone beserk where the police can't safely access the guy they want to apprehend or have been lethally assaulted by someone in the gang and the gang member gets sniper treatment.  

Some of that may roll as the "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" thingey because the "good guys" are really on our side, some of that not so much.  Is it that we have constitutional guarantees and processes to guard not so much against the "good guys" who might be wrongly getting a "good guy" in some misunderstanding because it is "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" OK to cap a thug, or that everyone is treated equally.  Yes we have misunderstandings?  Yes we have bad guys who should be taken down but aren't.  If everyone is treated equally then it's hard, not impossible, for a sub-culture of a people to say they are being mistreated...which says the family may cry the perp was wrongly treated but the sub-culture population the perp is from won't take strong issue against a fair process which to me means we enjoy fruits of a peaceful and civil society.

It would be simple minded to deny that there has been unfairness in judgments and actions in the nation's past; but I think more narcissic to think we are more fair today then before.  Favoritism and populist belief is steamrolling over fair and due process....anyone over 30 has witnessed this if they have had their eyes partially open and their heads 1/2 on straight.  We have news media that lies pretty much all the time.  We have politicians that lie pretty much all the time.  We have a population with particular subcultures that pretty much lie to "outsiders" when it suits their beliefs or aims to their benefit (or benefits).    

We are witnessing a nation in serious decline who has lost it's moral underpinnings.  Denial is a natural part of such a process and we see it widespread in the voting public and people (wishing it will go away) we know at home.  A danger of ours is that the inmates are running the aslylum....the liars and thieves among us who are leaders are not being called out for being liars and thieves so much as they are being praised as good guys by lying media and narcissic supporters who will not face facts.  Show a downhome boy or girl (maybe your grandma, mother, father, grandpa, uncle, aunt, etc....whatever) the planks in the Democratic party without telling them who it is (or tell them it's the Republicans for a laugh) and it is not surprising they disagree with most of planks....partially it's the populist opinion passed down from generations that they cling too.  It's easier to not think.  It's easier to be intellectually dishonest and look at today's benefit and blot out tomorrow's train wreck...hey, tomorrow will take care of itself won't it (perhaps in chains)....looking out for one's self (to the point of rank selfishness and beyond) and not considering the consequences of selling out is reckless and destructive.  We're not going to change people, they have to change themselves and the best catalyst is personal pain and loss to some level.

A bad thing nowis that the people may change away from light to socialist darkness because they are ignorant, uneducated and berift of necessary morality like telling the truth, putting away selfish motives that disadvantage others, etc.  

It benefits us all if we are treated equally under the law.  It protects you and I when dishonest, mean-spirited and evil people who are elevated to public office by populist opinion mistreat people and the process protects us from them and vice versa.  In that, we should support due process under the law for all citizens and treat everyone equally.

Today we are a nation at a tipping point if we haven't passed that already.  We have enough processes and bureacracy maintaining the old ways that made this nation great that it is lulling people to sleep at the danger we now face by supplanting and supporting denial of the obvious.  We have leaders who disregard law and equal treatment.  We are beset with lying news reporters and editorialists who have an agenda at odds with what this nation was created and stands for.  We have allowed sub-cultures to be created and nourished as victims who lie for personal gain (selfishness).  We are beginning to reap the benefits of an education system that has indoctrinated children with the trappings of communism and socialism in opposition to the freedom and responsibilty so cherished by most on this board.  We have a growing population of police and military trained to rightfully take orders coming from the education system that imposed liberal/socials ideals and demonized freedom and responsibility.

So guys, we have confusion imposed upon us.  We are in transition as a nation.  People who were educated with balance and fairness are reaching the ends of their careers and lives and are being replaced with people educated with aims and goals of leftists/liberals which insures this problem will grow.  We need to get back to our constitutional laws but we have a government gone wild, rotten at the top with a lot of good people in the middle who will take orders from bad people and quite possibly in doing so will spell the end of the United States of America.  

This thread obviously has men of like mind in disagreement over details that I think in large portion stem from the confusion thrust upon us.  Unless one is in denial it should be clear that the law means nothing to the evil men who now run our country.  We need equal protection in our bureacracies and legal processes which means the bad guy benefits too.  So I am concerned when military trains and supplants police in this nation not so much because the people, intent, practices and legal basis may be not have been good, but that it can soon be so easily misused by evil people and as such aid in the demise of this nation.

Will the nation pull out?  Only God knows.

[Solus]

I feel like plugging this in here, even though it doesn't quite fit here..
I spent 2010, (along with personal reasons,) having seen the writing on the wall, making a life for myself in Chile.
I had a reliable truck, frineds, a place to live, a chruch home, permanent residency and enough to live modestly on VA Disability.. I couldn't do it.. I'm an American and I couldn't do the Ex-Pat thing. I either left or spent all that I had to get my wife in and me back, so I could do this.. Fight for the remnant of the idea of being a free American..
That country has the largest population of Palestinians outside of Jordan and Israel, as many Jews, tons of old NAZIs and two generations hence, and very few Americans, almost nobody of African extraction, a "mafia" but no "gangs", no real drug problems, a modest culture where nobody was starving, cheap healthcare that's as good as it is here, the Cops carry Taurus .38s with no extra rounds, and everybody got along just fine.. (And except for the Communists, they still love Americans)
Chile wasn't perfect, but we should be so fortunate to have such peace in our culture here.. (It was like here in the 50s, but without the wife-beaters.)

A question pertaining to your off topic statement here...seriously...what are Chile's civilian gun laws like?

[tombogan03884]

Santa posted :
As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that

That isn't what I said, what I said was that it was a more extreme action for the G to take, you can release a prisoner, you can't unexecute some one.

Santa Posted :
I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO

They are both US citizens entitled to the same protections under the law. If it is OK to murder the AQ guy on sight then it is also OK to whack the Oath keeper if he breaks a law.
You can not have one set of laws for people you agree with and another set for people you don't agree with.

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

I would bring up a point.  My understanding is that the Oath Keepers are about keeping the laws and not breaking them in that they strive to keep the law and would pledge to disavow unlawful orders.  If that's true, in my mind there would be no lawful basis for whacking an Oath Keeper and such an action would be manslaughter at the least (or just following orders, of course). 

But I must agree, all citizens must be afforded the same protections.

[santahog]

In Chile, only a Natrualized Citizen may own or posess a firearm. Legally, you can hire a guide and hunt whatever species allowed, but technically, you can't even touch a gun.. The way that works is that the guyde carries the rifle and hands it to you to take the shot, and you pass it back..
It's pretty complicated once you get into self defense. You can get a weapons charge from having a corkscrew if you use it to kill someone they think didn't have it coming.. It's based on "Reasonable Force", that is to say, was he trying to kill you or just hurt you.. It's not a violent culture but the Justice System is a European model..
I could own a crossbow with broadheads..

Tom, I'll get into yours later..

[santahog]

Santa posted :
As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that

1. That isn't what I said, what I said was that it was a more extreme action for the G to take, you can release a prisoner, you can't unexecute some one.

Santa Posted :
I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO

2. They are both US citizens entitled to the same protections under the law. If it is OK to murder the AQ guy on sight then it is also OK to whack the Oath keeper if he breaks a law.
You can not have one set of laws for people you agree with and another set for people you don't agree with.

1. Lawyers and arrest warrants aren't the best use of infantry/combat arms, regardless of training. Do you want to be the guy who takes a round trying to bring this guy back to NY for a civilian trial? The guy isn't a victim of circumstance. He chose to go and do what he did. I'll at least take him at his word.. I'm not gonna flog this one anymore. We may have to agree to disagree..
   As far as a personal preference, I'd rather die than go to prison. I say this as one who's had the benefit of going to prison, and the privilege of having the keys to let myself out at the end of my shift.. That's a choice that I'll only have to make if I'm left no other choice. Of the ways to die, prison isn't one I would choose. Without tools or advance warning, I no longer have the ablity to defend myself. I am helpless..

2. US soil does make a difference (in my troubled mind). That's why .mil and CIA aren't allowed to operate on US soil. When we decide to defend the borders, we can discuss that..
   Oath Keepers aren't perverting the Constitution. They aren't taking up arms to overthrow the gov't. If any of us are forced to grab a gun, it will be to defend our personal freedom or safety, only. I suspect that most of us will go along quietly. I don't know, and none of us will till it's done.. Again, I'm done flogging this horse. The Admin thinks it can do what you say that it can't. Great.. We'll see.

It seems to me like the only ones who get a trial are the ones who fire the first shot.
The ones who just want to be left alone tend to not get a trial. They just get shot..

[tombogan03884]

The intellectual gymnastics involved in your post make my head hurt .
You are a hypocrite who wants to justify killing people you don't agree with with out due process but it violates the Constitution if some one wants to do it to you.

[Pathfinder]

The intellectual gymnastics involved in your post make my head hurt .
You are a hypocrite who wants to justify killing people you don't agree with with out due process but it violates the Constitution if some one wants to do it to you.

Tom, your rigidity is on full display again. There is a very clear difference between an American citizen in a hostile war zone giving aid and comfort to the enemy OTOH, and an American citizen on US home soil supporting the US Constitution and demanding that the .gov comply with the Constitution's restrictions and limits on .gov power and authority against the citizens.

I can't recall who said it, but the old saying - it is always right to support your country against your government, it is never right to support your government against your country - applies here. I think most of us here are troubled by the .gov actions over the past 20+ years, especially the recent actions of the current POS occupying the WH. Alawaki is dead, we can do nothing about that, even though some of us think he had it coming for the whole "aid and comfort" thing he was doing.

Instead, we should be seeking any leverage we can to ensure that the .gov respect and complies with the US Constitution. Attacking each other here does not exactly advance that cause.