When do we start shooting ?

[DesertMarine]

The country is ALREADY being handed over to an invading, though generally, unarmed invader. What else would you call  illegal immigration  if not an invasion by citizens of another country? As the situation is now we could not hold Ca. and most of the Southwest if Mexico said they were taking it back, America would eventually win but we would be starting from a front that would more or less run from Ok. to Or.

Tom,
Generally, I agree with you.  On this note. no.  We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration.  While the numbers are large, their power is limited.  Most of the ones from Mexico are coming to escape Mexico and would/will not obey Mexico if it puts a call to take over Calif or the Southwest.  Then there are too many of us that will not allow that to happen.  Pat Buchanan is spouting the theory of a fifth column by Mexico to take over the Southwest.  Bullshit. 

What about the people/corportations and countries that are buying up our country and have tremendous influence on what goes on in this country.  A very large part of our country is already out of American hands.  Other countries thru their national corporations are working at taking over operations of our country.  Case in point, Slick Willy and Dubai almost taking over operations at our ports. 

What about the United Nations working to take over the operations of all of our National Parks.  I read that they already operate some National Parks.  We have Carlsbad Caverns National Parks and they were trying to take over, claiming the Parks belong to the world.  Also, the United Nations is working to disarm the world and the United States. 

Next we have the radical Islamic and maybe some not so radical that want to take control of the world, beginning with the US in the name of Allah. 

Those items are of greater threat to our country and way of life and that is what we will, in more probability, have to fight to keep our country.

Semper Fi, my brother and like Charleston Heston said, " From my cold dead hands".

[tombogan03884]

Tom,
Generally, I agree with you.  On this note. no.  We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration.  While the numbers are large, their power is limited.  Most of the ones from Mexico are coming to escape Mexico and would/will not obey Mexico if it puts a call to take over Calif or the Southwest.  Then there are too many of us that will not allow that to happen.  Pat Buchanan is spouting the theory of a fifth column by Mexico to take over the Southwest.  Bullshit. 

What about the people/corportations and countries that are buying up our country and have tremendous influence on what goes on in this country.  A very large part of our country is already out of American hands.  Other countries thru their national corporations are working at taking over operations of our country.  Case in point, Slick Willy and Dubai almost taking over operations at our ports. 

What about the United Nations working to take over the operations of all of our National Parks.  I read that they already operate some National Parks.  We have Carlsbad Caverns National Parks and they were trying to take over, claiming the Parks belong to the world.  Also, the United Nations is working to disarm the world and the United States. 

Next we have the radical Islamic and maybe some not so radical that want to take control of the world, beginning with the US in the name of Allah. 

Those items are of greater threat to our country and way of life and that is what we will, in more probability, have to fight to keep our country.

Semper Fi, my brother and like Charleston Heston said, " From my cold dead hands".

 I had not heard the Pat Buchanan thing, I was thinking of the protests a year or two ago.  It was just a possibility because I did not think of the ones you mention, such as foreign ownership of  Major US agri business corporations, and UN meddling in all aspects of our INTERNAL affairs. 

[Pathfinder]

Like most things, the illegals are a symptom and a smokescreen, a problem but not the real problem.

The real problem, as Tom noted, is that the country as a whole has been sold out over the past 40-50 years. And it is all about the Benjamins - and the power.

Benjamins - the multi-national conglomerates are moving us in the direction of the original movie Rollerball - governments no longer matter (or as in the movie do not even exist) because the companies control the political infrastructure and manipulate it where they want it to go.

Don't think so? Consider this - do you ever remember anyone asking you if it was OK for something called a "credit score" to control your life? You probably don't, you were probably (as was I) distracted by some shiny object the government dangled to distract us from noticing.

Power - what needs to be said? Why do you think the politicians keep passing laws like the McCain-Feingold act, often referred to as the incumbent assurance act? To stay in power. And why? to help build big government in partnership with big business and keep moving to better control the populace.

And that explains the libs in particular getting in bed with the UN, easily one of the most vicious and incompetent (an interesting combination BTW) forms of governments ever invented or seen on the face of this earth. Rome was never this incompetent (except maybe under the later emperors). Egypt had it's ups and downs. But everyone of these governments had opponents - Rome had Carthage (for a while), Egypt ran so long it fought nearly everyone in the area - Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Nubians, etc. Same for the Chinese.

Who will the UN compete with?

The police have been militarized over the past 30 years to be the front lines, as we have seen in NO, Greensburg and elsewhere. And our military - and many around the world - are getting great urban warfare training in the Sandbox, Kosovo, even Grenada. Lessons have been learned, and tactics being adapted.

All you have to do is read, like a big puzzle, and put the pieces together. No one will hand you the finished puzzle - yet. When they do? It will be too late.

I'm open to other interpretations. But do you wonder why I'm pessimistic?

[tombogan03884]

These are great posts, interesting evaluations of our situation. But no one has yet dared to actually address the question.
Once again I ask, where do YOU draw the line and start killing the abusers of power ?

[Rastus]

Tom,
Generally, I agree with you.  On this note. no.  We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration.  While the numbers are large, their power is limited.  ....

Though I'm not believing any kind of planned subversion, I think your view comes from living in close relations to a "fluid" border situation where people crossing the border is common.  Having grown up in the South, living in Louisiana outside Baton Rouge and New Orleans, having traveled extensively in the deep south and Texas and being a bit over 50 years old, I disagree. 

There has been a influence on society from immigration that may not be visible to you due to where you live.  I worked New Mexico the last two years in the oil business, the society there is quite different from other parts of the country and appears oblivious to cultural changes that the remainder of the country sees.  Some of the cultural changes we see in other parts of the country appear to have been always part of the culture of the Southwest.  That's fine for the Southwest, but it riles up the rest of us due to the cliquish nature and consequences of being illegal, for a few starters. 

Houston...totally different now than it was 20-30 years ago due to illegal invaders.  Dallas, ditto.  Northwest Arkansas...wow...now that is a huge change in culture foisted by illegals.  And this culture is not better than our culture (excluding the welfare handout slime).  Disagree with the culture statement, give me some points where the Mexican culture and lifestyle is an improvement over traditional United States American culture and lifestyle....that is to say where is it better than our culture.  I know there are outstanding individuals...I'm not speaking of people worthy to enter, I'm talking about the preponderence of one culture over another culture.

I chased an illegal Mexican out of my garage 15 or so years ago.  He was an itinerant strawberry picker who ended up in the back country one mile off the main road at the very dead end where I lived.  He was where he didn't belong and knew it.....I should have called the police...I did not know then what I know now.

In Oklahoma, where I have now lived for 12 years, I have seen a pendulum change.  On arrival, not much of an overrun from Mexicans, as housing construction increased along with builder greed, the population of illegal Mexicans skyrocketed.   Undeniably and as so recorded violent crime increased from the Mexicans.  I personally knew a person killed by an illegal Mexican and several who have been robbed or otherwise damaged (car accidents, etc.) and there has been no recourse against them.  Think I'm full of it on the knowing a person killed by a Mexican, look up in Tulsa....his son and my son had finished basketball practice and dad never showed to pick him up.  Illegals are protected by the greedy rich of Tulsa who will not pay a local worker a decent wage....it is wrong to think lower prices are passed on due to savings....greed lines the pockets of "citizens" who hire illegal invaders.  Last year, Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire an illegal...in October 2007, there was a huge exodus and the society is better for it.  Period. 

Too many people far different from the society streaming in far too fast who do not honor our traditions.  Though rich people foist it upon the rest of us that still does not make it right.   The traditions of Mexcio are similar to those of the Southwest US, so I do not find it unusual that someone living in the Southwest would not see such a problem as people who live outside the Southwest.  The Southwest culture is "charming" but when a Mexican culture is introduced to the deep South, New England, etc. it is downright alien. 

Those hardworking people who leave Mexico......seem to have children without those values.   Our culture, U.S. culture is damaged by this damned welfare state which has created victims who will not work.  Illegals who work fill the void for the citizen leaches who do not work.  The illegals seem to have children who add to the leaches born of citizens (not all but more than enough).  All that is happening is adding to a ever-growing future problem which undeniably looms before us.
 
We are heavily taxed to pay for the health care and welfare of illegal Mexicans not to mention the huge cost in tax dollars to increase our infrastructure to support illegals.  We expand highways, schools, hospitals, police, etc. to accomodate the illegals....or do you somehow think 30 million or so people come over with no cost?  I'm damned tired of paying taxes so lazy people can sit on their ass and vote for slugs who give them my money which results in illegals coming to fill the void created by the "citizens" who will not work.  Earned income credit...let's not even talk about the money flushed down that program to buy Hispanic votes.....or in fairness, votes of victim-citizens who will not work.

It is not responsible to overlook the Mexican secessionist movement in California and other places.  It is not responsible to overlook local and state governments that actively disobey laws to prefer illegal Mexicans and push aside U.S. citizens.  It is not responsible to give the wealthy and the politically powerful free reign in destroying our nation so they can achieve their selfish aims. 

The threat to our nation is asymmetrical.  It is from within first, from without second.  I do not blame illegals (Mexican and otherwise) from trying to enter to improve their lot, but I shall not embrace them.

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

..........The police have been militarized over the past 30 years to be the front lines, as we have seen in NO, Greensburg and elsewhere. And our military - and many around the world - are getting great urban warfare training in the Sandbox, Kosovo, even Grenada. Lessons have been learned, and tactics being adapted.................

And at places like Gunsite, USSA, Thunder Ranch, etc.  Another good reason for citizens to take training....I think it helps law enforcement and citizens to understand we have common goals and interests divergent from the Marxist leaders that are being raised up and who they may one day report to....later having to decide whether or not to support those who do not share the American vision of free citizens and who will be controlling the paychecks.  It's good for John Q. Public to train with LEO's to maintain that all-important common bond.

[gunman42782]

These are great posts, interesting evaluations of our situation. But no one has yet dared to actually address the question.
Once again I ask, where do YOU draw the line and start killing the abusers of power ?

Well, honestly, I don't think no one want to put down on the internet for the world to see where we would draw the line, simply because the internet cops might come knocking on our door and force our hand sooner than later.  Which goes to show just how bad it has become when you will not express yourself for fear of government retribution. 

[tombogan03884]

Though I'm not believing any kind of planned subversion, I think your view comes from living in close relations to a "fluid" border situation where people crossing the border is common.  Having grown up in the South, living in Louisiana outside Baton Rouge and New Orleans, having traveled extensively in the deep south and Texas and being a bit over 50 years old, I disagree. 

There has been a influence on society from immigration that may not be visible to you due to where you live.  I worked New Mexico the last two years in the oil business, the society there is quite different from other parts of the country and appears oblivious to cultural changes that the remainder of the country sees.  Some of the cultural changes we see in other parts of the country appear to have been always part of the culture of the Southwest.  That's fine for the Southwest, but it riles up the rest of us due to the cliquish nature and consequences of being illegal, for a few starters. 

Houston...totally different now than it was 20-30 years ago due to illegal invaders.  Dallas, ditto.  Northwest Arkansas...wow...now that is a huge change in culture foisted by illegals.  And this culture is not better than our culture (excluding the welfare handout slime).  Disagree with the culture statement, give me some points where the Mexican culture and lifestyle is an improvement over traditional United States American culture and lifestyle....that is to say where is it better than our culture.  I know there are outstanding individuals...I'm not speaking of people worthy to enter, I'm talking about the preponderence of one culture over another culture.

I chased an illegal Mexican out of my garage in Springfield, Lousiana 15 or so years ago.  He was an itinerant strawberry picker who ended up in the back country one mile off the main road at the very dead end where I lived.  He was where he didn't belong and knew it.....I chased him off with a shotgun but should have called the police...I did not know then what I know now.

In Oklahoma, where I have now lived for 12 years, I have seen a pendulum change.  On arrival, not much of an overrun from Mexicans, as housing construction increased along with builder greed, the population of illegal Mexicans skyrocketed.   Undeniably and as so recorded violent crime increased from the Mexicans.  I personally knew a person killed by an illegal Mexican and several who have been robbed or otherwise damaged (car accidents, etc.) and there has been no recourse against them.  Think I'm full of it on the knowing a person killed by a Mexican, look up Randy Berger in Tulsa....his son and my son had finished basketball practice and dad never showed to pick him up.  Illegals are protected by the greedy rich of Tulsa who will not pay a local worker a decent wage....it is wrong to think lower prices are passed on due to savings....greed lines the pockets of "citizens" who hire illegal invaders.  Last year, Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire an illegal...in October 2007, there was a huge exodus and the society is better for it.  Period. 

Too many people far different from the society streaming in far too fast who do not honor our traditions.  Though rich people foist it upon the rest of us that still does not make it right.   The traditions of Mexcio are similar to those of the Southwest US, so I do not find it unusual that someone living in the Southwest would not see such a problem as people who live outside the Southwest.  The Southwest culture is "charming" but when a Mexican culture is introduced to the deep South, New England, etc. it is downright alien. 

Those hardworking people who leave Mexico......seem to have children without those values.   Our culture, U.S. culture is damaged by this damned welfare state which has created victims who will not work.  Illegals who work fill the void for the citizen leaches who do not work.  The illegals seem to have children who add to the leaches that born of citizens (not all but more than enough).  All that is happening is adding to a ever-growing future problem which undeniably looms before us.
 
We are heavily taxed to pay for the health care and welfare of illegal Mexicans not to mention the huge cost in tax dollars to increase our infrastructure to support illegals.  We expand highways, schools, hospitals, police, etc. to accomodate the illegals....or do you somehow think 30 million or so people come over with no cost?  I'm damned tired of paying taxes so lazy people can sit on their ass and vote for slugs who give them my money which results in illegals coming to fill the void created by the "citizens" who will not work.  Earned income credit...let's not even talk about the money flushed down that program to buy Hispanic votes.....or in fairness, votes of victim-citizens who will not work.

It is not responsible to overlook the Mexican secessionist movement in California and other places.  It is not responsible to overlook local and state governments that actively disobey laws to prefer illegal Mexicans and push aside U.S. citizens.  It is not responsible to give the wealthy and the politically powerful free reign in destroying our nation so they can achieve their selfish aims. 

The threat to our nation is asymmetrical.  It is from within first, from without second.  I do not blame illegals (Mexican and otherwise) from trying to enter to improve their lot, but I shall not embrace them.

Unrestricted immigration by Huns into the Empire is what eventually brought down the Roman Empire. This has been blamed on many things over the years but the facts are that the Legions were stretched to thin and had to rely on "Legal" Hun immigrants to man the borders, These troops were not very good about keeping their relatives out .
Why were the Legions stretched so thin ? Because POLITICIANS used funds that could have defended the Empire to bribe the masses with free bread and Circuses. Like the Bible says, "There is nothing new under the sun."

Well, honestly, I don't think no one want to put down on the internet for the world to see where we would draw the line, simply because the internet cops might come knocking on our door and force our hand sooner than later.  Which goes to show just how bad it has become when you will not express yourself for fear of government retribution. 

We can hope that the conclusion they draw is that ordinary people are getting "mad as hell". If the enemy can burn the Flag that so many of us have defended, many to the point of giving their lives to protect what it represents, then I say we to should speak our minds and damn the consequences. It is beyond time for the "Silent Majority" to quit playing coward, that tactic lost us one war in VN, and stands a real good chance of loosing another one in America.

[twyacht]

A direct answer to your question requires the "What happens after?" approach.

Say I go down to my corrupt county commiss meeting and "take care of them", I would be a lone disgruntled citizen, make the news, and go down as some crazed gun owner.

If I go to my lying, bastard gov. here in NC, and "end it for him", I would make the news as a gun nut, and be killed by the NC Highway Patrol.
Chuckie Schumer, the Brady bunch, Even The Anointed One BHO, may give a statement. "The need to reform gun laws,.."etc,..

All this would do is add fuel to the fire for the ANTI-GUN people. and 1 foot fwd. 2 steps back,....thing.

If I did this with a group, we would be classified by the "status quo", just like those militant survivalist groups that hunker down waiting for the end times in Montana somewhere.

Remember the song,..." I fought the law, and the law won ",......

[ismram]

Let me point out that these 2 were nothing special until challenged by circumstances.

Very true!