Obama scoffs the Bible

[twyacht]

What recent events were the Latter Day Saints involved in? If you're referring to the polygamist sect stuff that was recently in the news, that wasn't the actual Mormon church.

Just pointing that out. I'm not meaning to sound over sensitive, or offended.

I was just referring to the events in Texas, and the Warren Jeffs disgraceful actions.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/

"The members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints spent their days raising numerous children, tilling small gardens and doing chores. But at least one former resident says life was not some idyllic replica of 19th-century life.

"Once you go into the compound, you don't ever leave it," said Carolyn Jessop, one of the wives of the alleged leader of the Eldorado complex. Jessop left with her eight children before the sect moved to Texas.

Jessop said the community emphasized self-sufficiency because they believed the apocalypse was near.

The women were not allowed to wear red — the color Jeffs said belonged to Jesus — and were not allowed to cut their hair. They were also kept isolated from the outside world.

[Rob10ring]

"The members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints spent their days raising numerous children, tilling small gardens and doing chores. But at least one former resident says life was not some idyllic replica of 19th-century life.

"Once you go into the compound, you don't ever leave it," said Carolyn Jessop, one of the wives of the alleged leader of the Eldorado complex. Jessop left with her eight children before the sect moved to Texas.

Jessop said the community emphasized self-sufficiency because they believed the apocalypse was near.

The women were not allowed to wear red — the color Jeffs said belonged to Jesus — and were not allowed to cut their hair. They were also kept isolated from the outside world.

The FLDS aren't the Ladder Day Saints.

[tombogan03884]

"By equality, I did not mean equality in numbers, but  equality in rights.  If a single person forms a minority group, their rights should be the same as the rights of a majority group of even every other citizen of the country belongs to that majority group.  Rights are not determined by majority/minority status"

I agree with you Solus, if 1 or 25 people want to worship a large seashell as a divine idol, in America, they should have every right to do so.  Should seashell icons be placed next to Nativity scenes at X-mas, probably not going to happen on the public square, but if those want to display it on their property, That's great, I have no problem with that at all. I'll save the X-mas debate for another time,...

Please understand this was just a very "general" example leading to a bigger point.

Organized religeon doesn't represent me. For others, it may be a daily event. That's what's great about this country. But I don't think America denies a "minority" religeous group of their "rights". Too many ACLU lawyers, civil right lawyers would love to jump on that train.

The recent events of the Latter Day Saints, or David Koresh's outfit, or the others that have come and gone, ALL had the right (in the beginning), to practice their religeon as they wanted. When it morphed into something criminal, or people were hurt, or individual rights were violated, something had to be done, and the "law" stepped in. 

There are hippy commune's here in the mountains of NC, worship Nature,  total pacifists, vegetarians, make hemp products and sell them. They have just as many rights as the mega church in Charlotte.

I won't make personal remarks, I think that's not my style on a great forum, I enjoy a good debate, and I'll shut myself up now.

Take Care Solus,

Tom W.

Don't include Koresh in this , His group were law abiding citizens murdered by Janet Reno' ATF

[twyacht]

"The FLDS aren't the Ladder Day Saints."   

Distinction noted,...



"Don't include Koresh in this , His group were law abiding citizens murdered by Janet Reno' ATF"

Being a polygamist, with some underage "wives" as young as 12. Isn't legal.

[tombogan03884]

"The FLDS aren't the Ladder Day Saints."  

Distinction noted,...



"Don't include Koresh in this , His group were law abiding citizens murdered by Janet Reno' ATF"

Being a polygamist, with some underage "wives" as young as 12. Isn't legal.

That accusation was investigated previously by the State of Texas and found to be unwarranted.  The same with the alleged "Drug activities" neither of which came under the jurisdiction of ATF. Find the back issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine with their investigation in it, they received press awards for investigative journalism. It might be on their website. ( That's the Branch Davidians, I have not heard any defense for the FLDS )

[Sponsor]

[Solus]

That accusation was investigated previously by the State of Texas and found to be unwarranted.  The same with the alleged "Drug activities" neither of which came under the jurisdiction of ATF. Find the back issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine with their investigation in it, they received press awards for investigative journalism. It might be on their website. ( That's the Branch Davidians, I have not heard any defense for the FLDS )

Koresh was in the process of walking out to meet the AFT storm troopers. He was unarmed and telling the AFT agents that this was not necessary and was willing to allow them to conduct an investigation as he had done several times before with local authorities.

One of the AFT agents, while jumping off the back of the truck shot himself in the leg and shouted "I'm hit" .  The AFT agents opened fire on the unarmed Koresh wounding him 4 times.  His followers opened fire in the ATF agents, killing 6, I believe, in the standoff.

In addition to finding the initial accusations of the ATF unwarranted, no one found guilty of killing Federal Agents.  I believe 4 members were convicted of what was termed minor firearms violations. I do not know the nature of these violations.   

[Rob10ring]

Did they ever even have anything on the Branch Davidians?

[Pathfinder]

Did they ever even have anything on the Branch Davidians?

Just Reno's raging ego, the unadulterated arrogance and illegality of the FBI and ATF, and some minor piss-ant charges that a small number (2, 3?) went to jail for. Of course, the aforementioned gummint agents did happen to just accidentally don't you know murder all of the Branch Davidians in the compound, thereby avoiding the time-consuming, messy and very expensive trials. Of course, none of the gummint types ever were indiced, let alone went to trial.   

[twyacht]

I won't ever disagree with the absolute clusterf*** the ATF and other agencies handled the Branch Davidians. The situation went from bad to worse to catastrophic thanks to a inept Justice Dept.

BUT Koresh raised red flags all over town which of course escalated interest by the feds.

Interesting link to the whole series of events. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html

Small excerpt from the article;

Known as the Mount Carmel Center, the place was occupied by members of an apocalyptic religious group that was led by a man named David Koresh.  Rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic.

That put them under the ATF's jurisdiction.  A UPS driver had tipped off the government when a package bound for Mount Carmel had broken open to reveal casings for hand grenades.  While the group did earn money from gun sales and were legally allowed to trade in arms, it appeared that they weren't following protocol.  Some neighbors also reported a lot of target practice.

But there was more, too, which came out in the days ahead.  Linedecker claims that the local newspaper was running a series of articles about Koresh's dubious activities, entitled "The Sinful Messiah," based on accounts by defectors like Marc Breault, who later authored Inside the Cult.  Breault had hired detectives to snoop around and when contacted by the ATF, he supplied a number of detailed descriptions of his former associates.  He denounced Koresh, speaking of child abuse and polygamy.

Back to the premise of the this threads new direction, the Davidians right or wrong, drew attention to themselves, and raised the ire of an awful Janet Reno led DOJ.

[Pathfinder]

I won't ever disagree with the absolute clusterf*** the ATF and other agencies handled the Branch Davidians. The situation went from bad to worse to catastrophic thanks to a inept Justice Dept.

BUT Koresh raised red flags all over town which of course escalated interest by the feds.

Interesting link to the whole series of events. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html

Small excerpt from the article;

Known as the Mount Carmel Center, the place was occupied by members of an apocalyptic religious group that was led by a man named David Koresh.  Rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic.

That put them under the ATF's jurisdiction.  A UPS driver had tipped off the government when a package bound for Mount Carmel had broken open to reveal casings for hand grenades.  While the group did earn money from gun sales and were legally allowed to trade in arms, it appeared that they weren't following protocol.  Some neighbors also reported a lot of target practice.

But there was more, too, which came out in the days ahead.  Linedecker claims that the local newspaper was running a series of articles about Koresh's dubious activities, entitled "The Sinful Messiah," based on accounts by defectors like Marc Breault, who later authored Inside the Cult.  Breault had hired detectives to snoop around and when contacted by the ATF, he supplied a number of detailed descriptions of his former associates.  He denounced Koresh, speaking of child abuse and polygamy.

Back to the premise of the this threads new direction, the Davidians right or wrong, drew attention to themselves, and raised the ire of an awful Janet Reno led DOJ.

All true apparently. Great documentary about it too, sleeze Schumer was point man for BJ's minions on the white wash "investigation".

However, the ATF was trained by the US military at one of the TX bases, and was serving a knock and serve warrant for - ready for this? - drugs. Not even close to ATF's mission statement and certainly not meriting stock trailers full of armor clad automatic weapons bearing gummint types.

Punch line? The ATF was pinned down and ran out of ammo, Koresh and his people let the ATF walk out. Real criminal types.

We will never know the real truth, sadly, as most of the key people were killed by the US gummint.