Brand Loyalty

[Timothy]

Remember, if it's on the interwebs, it must be true!

Loyalty.....Dad worked for GM for 30 years.  He drove a Ford for most of that time!

[billt]

My issue on Rob's total hate of the 1911 is based on two of his points:  1.  He feels that we are incapable of two moves prior to firing under stress (drawing the gun & disengaging the safety).  Sorry Rob, but I am capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time!; 2.  He condemns the firearm because it may, guaranteed in his opinion, fail if forced to run a 500+ course of fire without cleaning.  How many rounds do we fire in a self defense situation?

First off, I like the 1911 platform enough to own an even dozen of them. Glock's to the tune of 6. So I'm sure there are "fanboys" of either platform who qualify as such, and have far fewer of each. With that said, I understand and accept Rob's opinion on them. You have to remember, regardless of his abrasive personality, that he see's more students fumble with 1911 safeties, than most any other platform. He doesn't create that condition, he merely observes it. He also see's them malfunction more than any other platform.

You can say much the exact same thing about Yeager. Every week they see what amounts to scores of people struggle through their courses with these types of guns. While at the same time see others using Glock's not have any of the same issues. After several thousands of students, along with millions of rounds, over a period of a decade or more, their opinions become pretty cemented with fact. Because there is nothing to change them, and everything to reinforce them further. Based only on what they observe.

As far as the number of rounds fired before a failure is deemed acceptable. That's personal opinion as well. Again, they see Glock's run an entire weekend without a hiccup. While at the same time they also see 1911's shut down for a variety of reasons. Dirt, lack of lube, breakage, won't run right with this or that type of ammo. This magazine locks the slide back after the last shot, but that one won't. Anyway, you get the picture. They are both basically parroting what they see happening in their classes. Day after day. Week after week. Year after year.

I look at them much the same way I look at appliance repairmen or car mechanics. They are in a unique position that I'm not, which allows them to observe a lot more failure than I do. Based on the failure they observe, I value their opinion on what makes and models to stay away from, and which to buy. That's not to say you can't buy a Samsung fridge, and carry a 1911, and have good luck with both. But the odds are more in your favor if you don't. I can replace a bad car or a bad fridge. But in a life or death situation, I want everything in my favor as much as I can possibly make it that way. So yeah, I'll grab a Glock instead of a 1911 when I head out the door.     

[MikeBjerum]

Billt,

Not debating your last point, because we have differing views of Rob's choice and reasoning.  I feel I have pointed out, as have you, our opposites on the same issues enough.

[MikeBjerum]

Loyalty.....Dad worked for GM for 30 years.  He drove a Ford for most of that time!

This is a common situation that I have never understood.  It is one thing if your employer does not make what you need or you are priced out of the market:  Build Peterbuilt or Rolls Royce.  However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?

I remember my time with a Chevrolet dealer and also later with a Ford dealer.  Both employers required that you support their brand.  They even helped you.  They both hired people who used other brands, but expected that when you changed it matched your chosen career choice. 

I had a hard time understanding this in my youth, but that has changed.  We live very near a very large major lawn care manufacturer.  I have owned one of their brands in the past, and liked it.  However, when we upgraded a couple items in recent years I considered this brand until I remembered how few of the local employees utilize their own brand at any level.  WHY?  If it isn't good enough for those who build them and can buy them at extreme discount, why would I trust it for a major purchase?

[les snyder]

Rastus... the Clark .45 stainless barrel had about 20,000 rounds on it at the time if I remember correctly... it split from the bottom of the chamber, along a rifling groove passing next to the bottom lug, to about 1/2" from the muzzle...naturally it happened at a major Area 6 match... pistol was a high cap Para lower with bar stock Caspian slide... I don't remember anything like a double charge, it just quit working....

BS Photobucket policy on third party hosting or I'd show a picture

if I screw up at a match (not uncommon any more) I can live with it... I hate my equipment to go down

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

Les that was a freak occurrence.  Sounds like the machining contacted, or nearly contacted, a casting flaw in exactly the wrong spot.

[Timothy]

This is a common situation that I have never understood.  It is one thing if your employer does not make what you need or you are priced out of the market:  Build Peterbuilt or Rolls Royce.  However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?

I think pop was loyal to his five kids and ma!  He got better deals from our local Ford dealer even though one of our neighbors owned a Chevy dealer down the street.

Like me, I don't believe that loyalty from a major public company is a two way street! 

My current employer could give a shit about anything but the stockholders and at this point, our stock is all but worthless.

[PegLeg45]

I agree with Bill, and don't want to appear to be 'bashing' Pincus. I will defer to his broad experiences in witnessing 1911 failures due to the volume of students in his classes.
My Colt 1911's have not failed me, but I've never ran 1200 rounds in a week through them either (500 is max for a weekender).
I'm one of those folks who believes there is something to learn from everyone (you just have to discern what it is from person to person) and would have no issues taking instruction from Rob (I just have to overlook his delivery style). as he has valid points.


Back to brands:
I'm also a big fan of Ithaca 37 shotguns, followed by Winchester 1300's.
Rifles, I'm a Browning fan.

[billt]

......However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?........ If it isn't good enough for those who build them and can buy them at extreme discount, why would I trust it for a major purchase?

Perhaps they just prefer something else? Cars, like clothes, are a personal choice. You shouldn't have to be looked down on, or else forced to purchase something you don't really like, just because you're employed by the company who makes it. We chose a Jeep Grand Cherokee over a Ford Expedition. Even though I've had fantastic luck with my 1991 Ford F-150 Pickup. I'm still driving it, and I like Ford products.

But we thought the Expedition was unattractive, and overpriced for what they offered. They also depreciate much faster. None of that would have changed if I had worked for Ford when we bought it. Ford could very well be a great company to work for, with good people and great benefits. But if you think the product is unattractive for whatever reasons, you shouldn't be forced to buy it. That's insane. How many hours does an auto worker have to labor to pay for one, employee discount and all? The free market is still free. Regardless of where you work, or who you work for.

[Rastus]

I've worked for major companies.  Gulf Oil which is long gone, Chevron which is still around and even Boeing for a few years.  Workers are fodder.  Especially with the emergence of MBA programs that seem to heighten overpaid upper management's short-sightedness at times.

Recognition for hard work and loyalty falls solely on the management properly recognizing that and next being prepared to place corporate value on that.  With several layers of management it gets very doubtful the guy on the bottom working his heart out will get his due.  Yeah, yeah...tell me all about the personnel evaluations they generally mean squat.  If you are in a unit getting cut and it costs money to move you...oops...it's about making money so you probably don't get moved unless you are very special.

Back at the old Vintage Petroleum in the 1999 downturn my district was the only district that did not lay off any employees...all of the other District Managers caved in and got rid of a few people and sometimes good people.  I found another way to maintain profitability and kept everyone but it took working after hours, preparing plans and schedules, running over countless pages of costs and economics and a couple of huge spreadsheets to have what it took to fight for it.  So...it boils down to the management and if they are lazy yes guys in lower and middle management all the hard work at the bottom often means squat.  Just because they got a college degree it seems most people just think they have arrived, need to be paid big $$$'s and cop an attitude if they have to go out of their way or depart from the norm...same thing with guys who worked through the ranks to management.

I understand wanting to be loyal to your employer...but when it becomes impersonal and spans layers of management being loyal is not a ticket to reward.  You should give what you can because that's the right thing to do for the money and benefits you receive....if you want more find more.  In fact, I've fired very loyal guys who were lazy and trying to ride the system.  In the end...EVERYONE...from top to bottom needs to evaluate their work, why they are there and should they move to somewhere else.  It's good when you get in on the bottom, people are needed and perks are given away to attract talent but once a company matures take what you can for a better opportunity.

I put my family's betterment over the company's any day.