NEW FORUM RULES 9/07/08 — Please Read!

[ellis4538]

1776 rebel, I have read your post and understand completely your disappointment.  I have had similar thoughts about the "Tail wagging the dog" and have experienced it a lot.  My chioce is to stay and try to work from within to help change 'the way it is".  I am sorry to see you go - if that is your chosen path (and the same goes for others who might follow).

Richard

[kmitch200]

So a gun company comes out with a bad gun.
I don't mean a badly forged/cast/assembled gun that slipped through the Quality Control cracks, I'm talking a real turd of a design.

Not your run of the mill turd but I mean a REAL smelly, corn studded, steaming pile of scat that would make a large bovine proud.

We can't mention it? We can't call a spade a spade?

When does "critique products in an informational way" end and bashing/riot inducing start? 
Is it like Justice Stewarts: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it?"

I think I almost understand the position taken but that doesn't mean I'm in total agreement with it either.

[Teresa Heilevang]

hahahaha... 
 Dammit kmitch... Just when I thought I had covered all the corners.. you have to jump in here and ask me that!
 Welll.. ......... hmmmm..
 When is a turd not a turd.. ?
I am not going to just vote "present " on this one..   

 Let me think about it for a little bit so I can answer you with a little intelligence..

Be back in a bit. ..

[Big Frank]

You can call a spade a spade and a turd a turd. But that doesn't mean we should organize a boycott against everything made by Brand X who made the big steaming pile of dung. IMO that's overreacting and it's just plain wrong, and I can see why that type of thread is deleted. It happens at the expense of losing good information too and it's a shame to lose the good with the bad. Gun owners who have a legitimate gripe should complain to the company and demand satisfaction. Calling for a boycott by everyone else is the kind of extremist attitude I expect from our political enemies but not from us. I try to be open minded and try to see other peoples points of view. Not always sucessfully. I don't like everything I read. No one does. I sometimes get people p*ssed by things I say too. It happens. I know I stepped on one person's toes in particular and am sorry I said it the way I did, but people can only whine so long before it gets old. I may have just gotten some people mad again by saying that but it's how I feel. If you have a problem with a gun tell us what it is. If anyone finds a solution - great. If not we don't need constant reminders that a turd is still a turd. Yeah, it stinks, but it's not really productive to say it 100 times. We know it does. We each have a choice to read a thread or not, and then ignore it or respond to it. All opinions are valid but mudslinging isn't. I'm glad that it hasn't devolved into a bunch of name calling and personal attacks like some other forums. Those forums weren't as well moderated and spiralled out of control. It seems to start out with "that sucks" and ends up with "you suck" or a bunch of other crap that no one else wants to read. I appreciate the hard work that the 3 Ms are doing here. This is the only firearms forum I visit and I like it here, whether any threads get deleted or not. I really hope no one leaves because of what they percieve as excessive censorship. We need you here. The anti-gunners are the enemy and we all need to stand together. My thanks to all for a great forum and lively discussions. I feel priveliged to be a small part of it.

[ncwolf]

Thanks for the Info, such info I would think that you would not have be  to posted  but sometimes it is necessary. Will try my best to follow new rules.

[Sponsor]

[Teresa Heilevang]

So a gun company comes out with a bad gun.
I don't mean a badly forged/cast/assembled gun that slipped through the Quality Control cracks, I'm talking a real turd of a design.

Not your run of the mill turd but I mean a REAL smelly, corn studded, steaming pile of scat that would make a large bovine proud.

We can't mention it? We can't call a spade a spade?

When does "critique products in an informational way" end and bashing/riot inducing start? 
Is it like Justice Stewarts: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it?"

I think I almost understand the position taken but that doesn't mean I'm in total agreement with it either.

Okay.. Even though most of you have never met me face to face.. the ones that have, know that I type just like I talk..just a plain ole girl with plain old fashionable language skills...bottom line?? Just blurt out exactly what you're thinking and go from there. All that's missing is the hand gestures and the weird expressions I make.
 
 Soooooooooooo.. after my last post, I whirled around in my office chair.. turned to Marshal and I said..
 " Okay.. when IS a Turd not a Turd? 
I'm stumped! What the hell do I say? I mean.. ..They don't realize that they're asking ""me"" ....the most outspoken, wild, off the cuff, quick on the trigger person in the group. ( next to Michael of course.... ) a question about how far is too far. "
" How do I say it is just common sense and kinda knowing when too much is too much..when half the time I have to double check myself in this area?"

He got himself a cup of strong  "stand your spoon up in the cup" of coffee and said this...

As we have tried to explain before, that the actual criticism is not the problem. That when you state your opinion based on personal experience on a public forum, the Internet as a medium, sometimes becomes the ground for followers who chime in without an actual experience of their own.
 It is like the small town syndrome when one person explains a problem at one end of the town. The day after all the citizens have chimed in either publicly or one on one and the actual problem has become bigger than life and we start hating this or that. When someone asks about how this all got started, most (not all) the people don't have the answer or cannot remember....other than they are pissed off as hell and they hate whatever the subject at hand was.
  But dang it was good to blow the whistle.
 
For us trying to be a level medium to solve it communication wise, we have to deal with and sort out all the extra noise that comes along with it. .. so in the long run it all comes down to common sense.

To explain it in any other way is like trying to drive an already driven nail into the board even further.   
 
So.. I didn't vote "Present" on this.. but I did have help from my Vise President..
errrr..ahhhh... President.. yea yeah.. President....
I meant to say President.. yeah.. I ask my President....

**looking at Marshal and blowing him a kiss**
(((whew... 'bout got caught on that one.)))

[mosbear]

Civility in any discussion, specially the heated one, is a must. Conformance on the other hand is not.
Unfortunately in the era of the ever-searchable World Wide Web any bad post will stick out and be out for a long time. The genie is out of the bottle, and all of us have to leave with this reality in mind.
Gun owners be mindful of the consequences of what you about to say / post, as for the Gun manufacturers / Sponsors - get better Customer Liaisons and PR teams who can facilitate the damage.

For MMMs - with all due respect   

[Michael Bane]

Kmitch...I think you're getting somewhere...IMHO, the answer to your question is Zen-ish — "when is a turd, in fact, a turd?" I personally don't care for Glocks...never shot 'em worth a crap...don't like the trigger...don't like the sights...don't like the grip angle. But does that make a Glock a turd, or does it make it just a gun Michael doesn't like? OTOH, I love Walther P-38s, with their Rube Goldberg crappy DA triggers, their pissy little sights and their quirky pointability. Does the fact that I like them make them Not-A-Turd?

I own an expensive 3-inch Kimber 1911 that broke three firing pins in a row, bing, bing, bing...the only way to get it to stop breaking firing pins was to scrap the firing pin safety, do a complete overhaul (by Wayne Novak) and go to a titanium firing pin to make the gun drop safe. I like the gun just fine, but I wouldn't carry it for personal defense on a bet. Now, does that make all Kimbers turds, or all 3-inch Kimbers turds, or all short 1911s turds, or what exactly?

I have a Belgium Browning Hi-Power, considered one of the finest production handguns ever made. The rear sight shot off. Does that make it a turd? Does the fact that virtually every Colt Gold Cup will eventually snap the roll pin that holds the rear sight in place and launch the sight into the heavens — something that has been common knowledge for decades — make Colt Gold Cups turds? Does the fact that early Mini 14s could be expected to shoot into 4 inches at 100 yards rather than MOA make them turds? Does it matter that the guns — dirt cheap compared to ARs back then — did exactly what they were designed to do, what Ruger said they would do and what the majority of users expected them to do? I carry a Para Carry 9 LDA...does the fact that the LDA trigger clicks twice going back to reset — which makes it damn near impossible for a person trained to "ride" the trigger back to reset to shoot without retraining —
 make the LDA system a turd? Lots of people say so. Does it then matter that Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett and the great Bill Rogers, head of the Rogers Shooting School, say that riding the trigger to reset is a mistake and a competition affectation? Does that make Rob, Todd and Bill Turds-By-Association because they refuse to acknowledge such a glaring "flaw" in a trigger system? I've been called a sell-out because I refused to agree with an "expert" on that very subject.

Is a gun a turd because it is less accurate than another gun? An average AK-47 is substantially less accurate than an average AR-15. Is the AK-47 a turd? Does Michail Kalashnikov know? My Wilson Master Grade competition pistol has more than 200,000 rounds of .45 through it and it still shoots better than me. If I put 200,000 rounds of ball ammo through a Ruger LCP, it would probably fall apart in my hands...does that make the LCP a turd? Most HK battle rifles are notoriously hard on brass, in some cases making the brass either impossible to reload or cutting drastically its working life...are HK rifles turds because of that?

Is a gun a turd because you can't shoot it well? Is a gun a turd because you don't like the way it feels in your hand? Is a S&W 3rd-gen semi a turd because it feels small in your hands? A Desert Eagle a turd because it feels large in your hands? Is a Taurus revolver a turd because it doesn't have the same fit and finish as an S&W revolver, even though it costs half of the Smith? Is a modern S&W revolver a turd because it doesn't have the fit and finish of a pre-War Smith even though it costs twice as much? Is a $400 service pistol a turd because it won't shoot groups like a $3800 Nighthawk Custom? Is a Nighthawk Custom a turd because it took 200 rounds to break it in and your Springfield XD was 100% right out of the box? Are all Springfield XDs turds because your broke an extractor at 500 rounds?

If one of anything fails, does that make all the copies of that anything a turd? Because if that's the case, every single gun in the world is a turd. All machines fail. Humans build them, and we're still struggling on that perfection thing.

I will continue giving you my opinions, which — although I am quite fond of them — fall somewhat short of omniscience. I will also do my best to tell you what my biases are, because that's the only way you can use my information to make your own decisions.

And I strongly urge you to remember those stirring words from Cartman on a classic SOUTH PARK:

Vote for Turd Sandwich.
This is the most important election of our lives.
Turd Sandwich brings us hope for change.
A vote for Turd Sandwich is a Vote for Tomorrow!

Michael B

[kmitch200]

Never in my life would I have dreamed that:

1. I could render M'Ette speechless. (albeit temporarily)

2. I could get Michael Bane to post on the  Zen of a Turd.

 

Mom would be so proud!! 

My post was more devils disciple advocate than anything else. I've slung a bit o' mud myself so I was part of the problem. Sorry.
I missed the posts that called for boycotts, burning in effigy, etc., and I'm glad I did.

So...as long as the posts are factual, real and genuinely in search of an answer to a problem, we're pretty much on the same page?
Geez, what are you guys trying to do? Make common sense common? 


on edit:  I agree wholeheartedly with JumboFrank - "I really hope no one leaves because of what they perceive as excessive censorship." 

[twyacht]

IMHO, I have always respected and appreciated the "higher standard" the DRTV Admins.,  and members have treated me with, and my quest to learn all I can about an important aspect of my life.  I have seen first hand the denigrating, demeaning, and down right insulting nature of other forums; if I don't like this, or don't try that, or I don't know how to adjust the internal workings of a particular pistol, I must be a loser, "Mine is bigger than yours type thing".....

Fortunately, not all are like that. But DRTV forum is "the" one for me. If I have a question, concern, "issue", problem, or downright want to just vent, I have a place here to do so, without being "slammed". For that I'm thankful to all.

I have had a couple of "consumer issues" with my firearms, I post, get advice,have my rant, make my decision, and goto the manufacturer/dealer directly to resolve it, and become a "thorn in their" side, until its resolved. My cracked barrel on my $1200.00 rifle, was not warranty,(squib), and I had to pay for the replacement. But it was cheaper than the retail cost of a barrel, and I didn't even get a hat. , But Alas, it was fixed.

I too, apologize if I "fanned" the flames regarding a post, it was never my intention to "bash" a manufacturer,  just advocate a growing number of consumer complaints that were not getting anywhere. Good Luck to those seeking a resolution.

And MB, you are correct in you "Zen-ish" answer. Fantastic and eloquent way to sum it all up.

OBTW, my decocker on my Walther PPK/S is too stiff, and not loosening up, any advice?

P.S. ncwolf, I'm right across the river from you, good to see another "local". Welcome.