Author Topic: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?  (Read 6885 times)

Rob Pincus

  • CO-HOST ON BEST DEFENSE
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
    • I.C.E. Training Company
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 08:16:13 AM »
Hey, man.. Thanks!

 
Quote
however most fights end up in a clinch or on the ground and you must train for that eventuality.

Can't argue with that logic at all. Some type of grappling experience/training is vital to being well rounded.

At the end of the day, just getting yourself into ANY program is going to be a start. If you're interested enough to be active in a forum like this, your BS meter should help you figure out quickly whether or not the school you've found is geared towards making you safer or making you look good. You're going to get a lot of opinions on which "style" is better. In my experience, you'll find a great deal of variety from school to school and teacher to teacher in terms of practicality.



tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 08:55:24 AM »
I studied an Okinawan style called " Shoto Kan"  (sp ? ) until my Sensei asked me about hand guns for his wife.
After that I decided the old "kick 'em in the nuts, thumb in the eye" style was more appropriate for my level of dedication, and the amount of time available to devote to training.

runstowin

  • Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just”
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2008, 02:19:11 AM »
I was checking into martial arts in my area on the internet and noticed some sort of eastern spirituality involved with some of the disciplines, which I want to avoid. Are there any that are a straight fighting and exercise discipline without the eastern spiritual crap?
Rights are like muscles, when they are not exercised they atrophy.

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2008, 11:58:05 AM »
I was checking into martial arts in my area on the internet and noticed some sort of eastern spirituality involved with some of the disciplines, which I want to avoid. Are there any that are a straight fighting and exercise discipline without the eastern spiritual crap?

I doubt it as the whole underpinning of the warrior is based on balance, spiritual as well as mental and physical.

warhawke

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 365
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2008, 08:22:03 PM »
Back in the day I was one of those serious MA guys. I studied things that most people have never heard of and would crap themselves if they saw it. One of the things that most of the 'Hard' MA's people either don't know or won't tell you is that you MUST stay in training. 'Iron Hand' or 'Iron Body' training is probably the biggest example of this. I have seen people that will pound their fists in stacks of steel plates 1000 times a day, have people beat their bodies with bamboo sticks for an hour, all kinds of stuff. The bones and joints of these people are like iron, analysis of their bodies show 7x the bone density of the average human. I myself use to do a version of this (a considerably less punishing version) until I received a near crippling injury (a crippling one in terms of my training) and had to stop training pretty much completely for about 5 years. The result was arthritis in my hands, knees, back and elsewhere. You see all that pounding stimulates bone growth, while also preventing the build-up of calcium in the joints, this makes your bones hard and dense, but if you stop the pounding the bone growth continues and the destruction of the growth in the joints ceases. What all this means is that a significant portion of the 'Hard Arts' are going to be very hard on your body and failure to stay in training is going to result in problems later on. Don't go down this road unless you are willing to make a lifetime commitment, as in marriage a divorce is going to be painful.

As to the "Mystical" aspect of MA, much of this is a problem of translation as many of the concepts involved have literally no counterpart in Western philosophy. One of the best examples of this is the Zen concept of 'No-Mind". "No-Mind" is a literal translation of the Japanese term and it has been understood by many in the west (Ayn Rand was especially guilty of this) as meaning the 'absence of thought' or a failure to use the mind and depending on some mystical 'thing' to replace it. However, in the late 20th century Robert Anton Wilson and others began talking about "Internal Dialog'. Internal dialog is simply that voice in your head that you hear all the time, you talking to yourself. People do this all the time, you brain is constantly going "Did I shut off the lights?", "Is this idiot ever going to shut up?" "If he does this I should do that" and on and on. Even as you read this you are thinking about examples for and against my thesis or composing your reply or whatever. The greater part of Zen meditation is devoted to simply turning off this voice, of quieting the internal dialog, but because it uses flowery words such as "The mind like water" and such it becomes confusing to the analytical, materialistic (i.e. physical world) western mind. If the Zen concept had simply said "Quiet that yammering voice in your head" we would have understood it. When a Zen parable tells us "When eating, eat" we don't understand it, but if it said "When eating, don't think about anything else, don't even think about moving the fork to your mouth" it would have gone better. Mantras are even worse for Westerners because people mistake them for prayers because it seems a lot like reciting 'Hail Mary's', when in truth the purpose of the mantra is simply designed to drown out the internal dialog, to give your brain something to occupy itself with rather than letting it get distracted. In truth most shooters have been trained in a concept very much like "No-Mind", we call it muscle memory training, or conditioned reflex, we train to do things like drawing or reloading without thinking about it, in Zen it is called "action without thought". Of course, too many Western and even Eastern trainers wind up making these things MORE mystical and pseudo-religious because they themselves cannot translate the concepts properly. So don't get too bent out of shape about such things unless it really detracts from the physical aspects of your training.

As far as what to train in, I recommend what is now called "American Combatives", which is simply the old WWII style hand-to-hand combat, especially that developed by the OSS and taught by Rex Applegate. In fact, if you cannot find training in this locally, get a few friends together, buy a copy of "Kill or Get Killed" and Practice what it teaches and you will find yourself fully capable of handling probably 75% of the situations you are likely to face. In fact Krav Maga in nothing more than the old Fairbairn/Applegate system tarted up with a bunch of borrowed stuff, mostly from Tae Kwon Do, which (IMHO) makes it harder to train in (especially for the more mature and out of shape among us) and less useful overall. Sambo is even worse because of the emphasis on hard grappling (many instructors here are into Combat or Special Sambo which is a harder version big on grappling and striking). Judo and Jujitsu are ok, if you can put up with the physical requirements, and Tai Chi Chuan is actually an awesome form of martial art, IF you get a good instructor who understands it's martial aspect and you have 5 or 10 years to get good (I do recommend it as a style to practice just for it's health benefits and it DOES have them). I wouldn't recommend much else right now for anyone who doesn't plan to devote years to training.

If I had my life to do over I would have gotten into JKD and Silat, but I don't. Just remember, if you urinate in Jet Li's cornflakes you are gonna' catch an ass-whoopin', don't think a couple days a week at Master Kwan's McDojo is going to change that. Keep your goals realistic, use what has been proven to work in the street and on the battlefield (i.e. "American Combatives" or The Fairbairn/Applegate system) for the last almost 70 years and you will handle the majority of problems which can be handled by empty-hand fighting. Remember too, the first thing to fight with is your brain, mostly by recognizing and AVOIDING a fight. I've been called a coward (and similar, less polite things) more than my grand kids have been called to dinner and it never hurt as much as one ass-whoopin' would have. 
"Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem"
(The one hope of the doomed is not to hope for safety)
Virgil

Sponsor

  • Guest

m25operator

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2628
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2008, 10:16:52 PM »
Welcome back Warhawk, good to hear from you again, Fullauto, your profile does not show your age, I'm 50 and don't want to get into fights anymore, but so what, the bad guys don't care. If the fight go's into fist and feet, something has already gone wrong, but same deal, it's what is happening and you have to deal with it.  Go to some of your local fighting schools and see what they have to offer. Stand up fighting is one thing, lay down fighting is another, on the street, a thug is not going to fall down on you and try to get you to TAP OUT, your gonna get kicked and stomped, until they get what they want, your dead or they get tired. I would see if you have a local street fighting school or find some good dvd's to watch. If your in your 20's or 30's go ahead and train, if your 40+ and not in good shape, get a good idea and train some, but have a damn good attitude.  Fighting from the ground is not that hard if all you are doing is trying to keep from getting hurt. Keep your back on the ground, your arms in, and your legs ready to spring out, if you have more than 1 attacker, it's gonna suck, if they want to hurt you, they will, if they just want to rob you, they will, if they want to kill you with something other than their body they will.  If your just trying to survive until you can get your gun into play, you might!!

The first thing I was taught in MA, was just because I got knocked down, did not mean it was over, that boy kept kicking my ass until I did something to stop it, 2nd thing was, even if I won, I got hurt, bruises everyday. Fighting for fun is a lot different than fighting for your life, but the alternative to fighting for your life is obvious, NEVER GIVE UP AND NEVER SURRENDER.


By the way, Welcome Rob Pincus, I really enjoyed the Valhalla stuff on Shooting Gallery, and I'm glad you joined up in the new best defense.

I agree with you about Janis, this is really where his opinion would shine, that slap technique of his really intrigues me.
" The Pact, to defend, if not TO AVENGE '  Tarna the Tarachian.

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2008, 11:55:02 PM »
WarHawke, you haven't been posting much lately. But I'll tell you, What your lacking in quantity you sure make up for with quality !

TAB

  • DRTV Rangers
  • Top Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10214
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 103
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »
I can highly recomend 15+ years of wrestling and judo.   
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

Pathfinder

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6447
  • DRTV Ranger -- NRA Life Member
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 86
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2008, 06:24:14 AM »
Warhawke, great post, obviously based on real world experience. I always wondered about the problems the guys had when they  pounded their fists into trees and posts to build up their power. Explains why professional athletes are so prone to arthritis later in life after they retire.

One caution, though, t'ai chi ch'uan in this country is usually a form of calisthenics or dance based on t'ai chi - the martial arts. Made that mistake taking what I thought was a t'ai chi class and ended up in a tutu!   ;D

Not really, but the New Age crap the instructor was spouting made me too ill to follow the class. I took the class because of an intro I had to real t'ai chi and found myself sweating profusely after 10 minutes - and I had not even thrown a punch or blocked a kick - just the slow movements.

Age and a post-ranch sedentary life have put me out of shape enough (a lot!) that MA's are out for the moment. I am working on getting back into shape, I would look at MA as a method to do that but I don't have a lot of MA options here in eastern ND either, just a couple of McDojo's
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

J.B. Books

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Self Defense using some form of martial arts: where do I start?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2008, 09:27:14 AM »
Warhawke, great post, obviously based on real world experience. I always wondered about the problems the guys had when they  pounded their fists into trees and posts to build up their power. Explains why professional athletes are so prone to arthritis later in life after they retire.

One caution, though, t'ai chi ch'uan in this country is usually a form of calisthenics or dance based on t'ai chi - the martial arts. Made that mistake taking what I thought was a t'ai chi class and ended up in a tutu!   ;D

Not really, but the New Age crap the instructor was spouting made me too ill to follow the class. I took the class because of an intro I had to real t'ai chi and found myself sweating profusely after 10 minutes - and I had not even thrown a punch or blocked a kick - just the slow movements.

Age and a post-ranch sedentary life have put me out of shape enough (a lot!) that MA's are out for the moment. I am working on getting back into shape, I would look at MA as a method to do that but I don't have a lot of MA options here in eastern ND either, just a couple of McDojo's

McDojo's at least help with flexibility and a start toward general conditioning. To put it another way, if it's a choice between McDojo and nothing, as long as you don't take them to seriously about the fighting , they will probably be better than nothing.
Remember when the Fred Villari schools promised a Black belt in 6 months ?

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk