Gun Quality?

[Ping]

fightingquaker wrote: "Online "colleges" are diploma mills." That is my complaint and why I would not obtain a online degree/certificate course with the University of Phoenix or similar types of online colleges. I would rather work as an apprentice for a master gunsmith and learn as I go. I don't agree with the easy way out. I served our Our country to help pay for my college. Got an Associate's Degree in Criminal Justice. Took me 10 years working two jobs and taking 3 classes per semester. Took another 7 years to get my Bachelor's knocked out. I hate seeing someone pissing money away at a college/trade school that is not accredited.  Just my personal opinion.

[tombogan03884]

Depends on what your looking for. If you just want "paper" so you can earn more doing what your already doing then the "diploma mills" are all right.
But if, like in your case, you want to LEARN, then it doesn't seem like there is any other way but actually BEING THERE.

[CZShooter]

Depends on what your looking for. If you just want "paper" so you can earn more doing what your already doing then the "diploma mills" are all right.
But if, like in your case, you want to LEARN, then it doesn't seem like there is any other way but actually BEING THERE.

+1 If you want to learn something, you have to be able to get your hands dirty. But in my case...I've been doing my job for over 20 years without a degree. Although I am doing okay, changing jobs is almost not an option without that stupid piece of paper (not to mention how many years it took me to get where I'm at). I am seriousely thinking of doing the diploma mill thing in case I need to look for a job in the future.

[Timothy]

One thing you can look into is CLEP testing in your state.  It allows people with lifetime experience to take practical knowledge tests to gain college credits and eventually receive a degree in a technical field.

I'm the same way, been working in engineering for thirty years without finishing school.  I've changed jobs three times in the last 15 years and have always improved my income.  Companies want versatility as well as knowledge these days.  The last year, I've been instructing a kid with a Masters in engineering how to do his job.....there is only so much you can learn out of a book..

(don't worry, I don't and won't teach him everything.....I'm not getting any younger.. )

[CZShooter]

Thanks for the info Timothy.

I did look into the CLEP thing at our local college. They still required that I take at lease 60 hours of ther courses to "buy" a degree. Unfortunately...I haven't been able to fit it into my insane schedule (4 kids, and my father with severe alzheimer's).

I did change jobs once for a pretty substantial gain...but I only got in because I had worked as a contractor there for a few years and the guy that wanted me had known me for years and really fought to get them to "bend" the diploma requirement rules.

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

Warning folks ... I'm going to talk in generalities here, so please don't take this as a slam on everyone that may fit some of what I list.

I was a vo-tech grad, because I could not afford college right away.  At first I made fun of the "underwater basket weaving" and "music appreciation" courses in colleges.  However, as I matured I started to notice differences in people.  Then at the tender age of 33 I started college.

One of my first courses required that I read a major local daily paper every day.  We had tests on current events, and it was a major part of our grades.  In into to music and art classes I found out that there is a lot in our world affected by the classics and historical things out there.  I learned that for the most part the professors that only gave grades and didn't offer pass/no pass options tended to be better teachers, and I learned more in their classes.

I have come to learn that the instant gratification and task oriented education (what we used to call "on the job training") is harming the overall population by limiting our abilities.  In depth education that requires a broad base of knowledge, and an education that teaches you how to find the answers and formulate a solution is far more valuable than an education that only teaches you the end result.

Work ethic and motivation to do a good job come from not only an interest in, or a personality trait, but it is taught and reinforced by the knowledge of what is right vs. not right, and the ability to do it better.  Most of our assembly line workers have the bare minimum education with no interest in learning any more, because the company will teach them how to put bolt d in hole e and start nut f, if they no longer need to put nut x on stud z to hold handle y.

Our gun assemblers should be better at making corrections in the manufacturing process, and better in research and developement than the engineers in the front office.  Let the engineers figure out the exact material strengths and spring tensions needed, but the acual line worker should be the best at figuring out if this thing is going to work and last.

We are doing this to ourselves everytime we let someone slide with the bare minimum to do the job.  But this is what society wants, so this is what we allow.  There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better.  Today all we worry about is bottom line on this item, and we don't care if we replace it next year or next decade.

I could go on for pages on a few personal experiences and knowledge on a couple of manufacturers, but I'm climbing down off the box so they can put the soap away.

[tombogan03884]

"There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better"



There used to be a time when manufacturing companies were run by manufacturers, Now everything is at the whim of bean counters.

[Ping]

Along with CLEP Tests there is another test called Dantes. Both give college credits without having to pay for a full semester of one class, roughly $350 a class around here. Dantes was $50 with a $80 sitting fee.

[fightingquaker13]

Warning folks ... I'm going to talk in generalities here, so please don't take this as a slam on everyone that may fit some of what I list.

I was a vo-tech grad, because I could not afford college right away.  At first I made fun of the "underwater basket weaving" and "music appreciation" courses in colleges.  However, as I matured I started to notice differences in people.  Then at the tender age of 33 I started college.

One of my first courses required that I read a major local daily paper every day.  We had tests on current events, and it was a major part of our grades.  In into to music and art classes I found out that there is a lot in our world affected by the classics and historical things out there.  I learned that for the most part the professors that only gave grades and didn't offer pass/no pass options tended to be better teachers, and I learned more in their classes.

I have come to learn that the instant gratification and task oriented education (what we used to call "on the job training") is harming the overall population by limiting our abilities.  In depth education that requires a broad base of knowledge, and an education that teaches you how to find the answers and formulate a solution is far more valuable than an education that only teaches you the end result.

Work ethic and motivation to do a good job come from not only an interest in, or a personality trait, but it is taught and reinforced by the knowledge of what is right vs. not right, and the ability to do it better.  Most of our assembly line workers have the bare minimum education with no interest in learning any more, because the company will teach them how to put bolt d in hole e and start nut f, if they no longer need to put nut x on stud z to hold handle y.

Our gun assemblers should be better at making corrections in the manufacturing process, and better in research and developement than the engineers in the front office.  Let the engineers figure out the exact material strengths and spring tensions needed, but the acual line worker should be the best at figuring out if this thing is going to work and last.

We are doing this to ourselves everytime we let someone slide with the bare minimum to do the job.  But this is what society wants, so this is what we allow.  There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better.  Today all we worry about is bottom line on this item, and we don't care if we replace it next year or next decade.

I could go on for pages on a few personal experiences and knowledge on a couple of manufacturers, but I'm climbing down off the box so they can put the soap away.

+100! I'm not in the business of just teaching names and dates, because, hell we all forget that stuff. If all we do is teach to a standardized test we might as well allow the kids to take it open book because the knowledge will be gone in a couple of years. What we need to do do is teach people how to think logically, read critically and write and argue effectively and clearly. In other words teach people how to think. I can teach more about how international relations works by spending two weeks on Thucycides "History of the Peloponisian War" written 2500 years ago, than I can in a semester of study on current world politics. Reading Arisotle or Locke or the Federalist papers isn't hard. The thing is it gives you the PRINCIPLES behind our form of government, not just the details. I always spend a solid month doing nothing but going over these works and the Constitution and Declaration because I think they're the most important things these kids will ever get .(See the posts about democracy vs Republican forms of government for evidence.). You're right that too often schools are all about outcome, teaching a skill set that may become obsolete within a few years, as opposed to training the mind of a student to be someone who can educate thmselves for the rest of their lives. Its a crime. That being said, Tom's right, if you need the paper, get the paper. Nothing wrong with that.
fightingquaker13

[tombogan03884]

+100! I'm not in the business of just teaching names and dates, because, hell we all forget that stuff. If all we do is teach to a standardized test we might as well allow the kids to take it open book because the knowledge will be gone in a couple of years. What we need to do do is teach people how to think logically, read critically and write and argue effectively and clearly. In other words teach people how to think. I can teach more about how international relations works by spending two weeks on Thucycides "History of the Peloponisian War" written 2500 years ago, than I can in a semester of study on current world politics. Reading Arisotle or Locke or the Federalist papers isn't hard. The thing is it gives you the PRINCIPLES behind our form of government, not just the details. I always spend a solid month doing nothing but going over these works and the Constitution and Declaration because I think they're the most important things these kids will ever get .(See the posts about democracy vs Republican forms of government for evidence.). You're right that too often schools are all about outcome, teaching a skill set that may become obsolete within a few years, as opposed to training the mind of a student to be someone who can educate thmselves for the rest of their lives. Its a crime. That being said, Tom's right, if you need the paper, get the paper. Nothing wrong with that.
fightingquaker13

AMEN !! When I started school the purpose was to teach kids HOW to think, by 9th grade when I quit they were focusing more and more on trying to teach kids WHAT to think. Pretty much everything I post here comes from reading history and THINKING about what I've read, then overlaying the same scenario on modern events which tend to be discouragingly repetitive of histories screw ups.