Bob Barr Exploring Presidential Run as Libertarian

[tombogan03884]

Ron, I don't know the reasoning used by Haz, or anyone else here, but mine is that I'm SICK TO DEATH of watching the creeping intrusion of Socialism, A little bit here, a little bit there. There has been no SINGLE major political upheavel in my life time, but this is not the same country I was born and raised in. I remember a country where if you wanted something you worked and saved for it, If you were getting assistance, you did not have color TV, or other "luxury" items because you were spending your money to pay bills,and buy food if you did not work you were either a Housewife (if a woman) or a bum and probably a drunk (if a man). Men could do business without lawyers because a mans word had VALUE, Schools taught children HOW to read, write, do math and apply those skills to think criticaly and acheive their own solutions. It was a land that operated on the principle that "You get out of it, what you put into it ". That Country is gone, replaced by a Frankensteininan monster where everyone has to be "Empowered"there are no poor people, or ne'er do wells, they are "Underprivaleged", or "Underacheivers" competion has become a BAD WORD, and schools now teach WHAT  to think. Todays new Motto would make JFK puke, Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, instead what your country can do for you. It is time to "fish or cut bait" how do Americans want that quote remembered.

[mosbear]

Ron, I don't know the reasoning used by Haz, or anyone else here, but mine is that I'm SICK TO DEATH of watching the creeping intrusion of Socialism, A little bit here, a little bit there. There has been no SINGLE major political upheaval in my life time, but this is not the same country I was born and raised in.The core principals are still intact. I remember a country where if you wanted something you worked and saved for it, If you were getting assistance, you did not have color TV, or other "luxury" items because you were spending your money to pay bills, and buy food if you did not work you were either a Housewife (if a woman) or a bum and probably a drunk (if a man). Men could do business without lawyers because a mans word had VALUE, Schools taught children HOW to read, write, do math and apply those skills to think critically and achieve their own solutions.Schools and teachers shouldn't replace the parents, it is your duty as a parent to talk to your children. Let them know what is your view of the world is and don't hesitate to treat them as a grownups while arguing your case. Respect of your children have to be earned It was a land that operated on the principle that "You get out of it, what you put into it ". That Country is gone No it is not, and I am the living proof of it, replaced by a Frankensteininan monster where everyone has to be "Empowered” there are no poor people, or ne'er do wells, they are "Underprivileged", or "Underachievers" completion has become a BAD WORD, and schools now teach WHAT  to think.Don't believe everything you've being told by MSM or other media. It's very hard to handle ever-increasing information flaw, but this is the current reality Today’s new Motto would make JFK puke, Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, instead what your country can do for you.I don't think it is true for the majority of our fellow citizens It is time to "fish or cut bait" how do Americans want that quote remembered. Time is not just now, always let your voce heard, local elections is always the best opportunity for that.

Tom, see my comments in-line. The last one is for everybody and not addressed to you directly.
Just think how lucky we are to be here, with all the problems and current dificulties this is still the best country on the face of the earth, period.

[brosometal]

I stand shoulder to shoulder with Haz. Hell, I'll stand in front and take the incoming fire.  I was directed to this tread after posting on the Olberman thread which I will repeat below:

]Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I know the reality of the gas prices.  I just like throwing that out there to twist a knife in a common goosestepping lib.  I said it here tongue n cheek.  As for the Bob Barr thread I have not yet read it, but if it is what I think it is, that is what I was refering to (if that makes any sense at all).  McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite.  The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm.  I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual).  Trust me.  If McCain is elected and he steps out on the Global warming plank he and Newt are so fond of, when it turns out bad for the country, where is that blame going to land?  A perfect example is the recent dustup about Bush and his remarks before the Knesset. The media was more than happy to be a sounding board for Barry and his minions as they whine about foreign soil and politics without a peep of Nancy P. et. al. as they go abroad to slander the President.  This country, as great as it is, has some enormous problems.  If they are not solved, we will be the next Britain.  A hundred years ago, they had a great empire.  Now they are just an island with no guns, afraid to stand up to the extremist Muslims in their own country.  IMHO the real political debate in the country was between the Republicans and the Libertarians.  The Republicans have remove themselves from the debate leaving only the Libertarians (Bob Barr).  I say this knowing full well that Mr. Barr is a recent convert to the path of light which is a whole other discussion.

All this being said, I understand the reality of the situation.  A third party vote cound elect a senator with no idea what is going on. You pick the senator.  Just remember, Heros bleed.  No action taken in defense of ideals whether physical (thank you ladies and gentlemen of the armed forces) or mental is without negative consequences.

I now relenquish my soapbox to the floor.  I have to go read a Bob Barr thread.

It doesn't quite fit like a glove, but you probably need a new hand. The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above.  I will put this in plain english.  McCain is Obama plus some frills.  He is stronger on government reigning in spending: a plus. He wants to see how high he can stack terrorist bodies: a plus.  Other than these two pluses and his wife, where is the upside? McCain/Feingold, McCain/Kennedy, et. al. Where are the priciples that spawned these legislative abortions?  If you ask me, it is the media inspired "bipartisanship".  Cross the isle and make friends.  What if across that isle is a leftist snakepit? You still gonna cross?  McCain did.  Some one earlier in this thread mentioned (paraphrased) a slow death is still a death.  Ten ring!  When the handgrenade w/ a bad haircut (Perot) ran I was firmly in Ron J's camp, but then I looked back.  Bush Sr. was slightly left of Regan (check his judges). Teddy is light years left of his brother (check the taxes).  Nice slow death.  Above I wrote then later emphasised here that the true American political philosophic debate is between the Republicans and the Libertarians: The role of the federal government.  The Republicans have quit this debate.  The majority now act as the Federal government is there to solve peoples' problems.  This is the party of Regan!  After the hurricanes that crossed here in Florida in 2004 (pre Katrina for those not into dates in history) people were upset that ice and food weren't readily supplied by government.  (I haven't read the Consititution in a while, but I don't think that is in there.)  Then we had Katrina and the media went nuts.  President Bush instead of taking a stand and saying it is not the role of the Federal government went about to "fix" it.  This is just a microcosim.  The country is dying slowly.  How close does death have to be before you take a stand?  Is McCain to the right or wrong, I mean, left of Bush?  Is a win with a little bit lesser of two evils really a win in the long view?  What would it take for you to stand Ron J?

The American Revolution was spawned by less that a third of the populace in the colonies.  I think we all are glad that they stood to be counted.

With that, my fingers are tired and its Saturday.  I think I will go work out another finger a little bit. 

[Pathfinder]

OK, so like when I started this thread, I was hoping that MB or others of his ilk could use this potential of competition to the Manchurian Candidate to leverage something - anything - from him in the way of public assurances for 2A support. You know, the trigger issue, the topic that matters above all else? Yeah, I know politician's assurances are worth every penny you pay for them, but at least it is something.

I have watched with quite some amazement the direction of the thread - it was unintended but telling. Lots more discussion tan I originally would have guessed, and in very interesting and wonderful directions. Here's my take, literally just after watching "toons" with my girlfriend's 2-year old granddaughter.

The war is damn near over - the soft war, that is, for the great American experiment. And this just in - we - you and I - have lost. After watching blatant politically slanted cartoons aimed at pre-schoolers, like Dora the Explorer or Handy Manny, I am convinced that the jury is back, the verdict just ain't been read yet. You and I and everyone on this site does not control this country. The government does, and we will do what it says. We have been sold out - with our eyes wide open - to the a-rabs with oil, big businesses that need cheap (read Mexican) labor, and the commie Chinese, all with the willing connivance of the educational system (that is an ugly word for the people we hand our kids over to) and most of the media. Period. There is no more room for discussion, there will be no more substantive discussion because quite bluntly no one in power gives a flying rip what you or I think or even what we do. Pay no attention the man behind the curtain, because he doesn't count anymore either.

What I have become convinced of over the past couple years is that the time to act was years ago, and here we are in 2008 arguing about having to act someday in the future and arguing about who will get us there faster. There is no impetus for anyone to act now, sheeple are too comfy, too fat dumb and/or happy (or like Animal House, fat, drunk and stupid) to care or get behind anyone who would mount a credible defense of the American Way.

Besides, it really does not matter what you do or who we vote for. The MC will sell us out as fast as Obambi or Hitlery - the fix is in, Kennedy's assassination proved that. If you doubt this, you might ask yourself why else all American presidents since Kennedy have allowed egregiously anti-American and unconstitutional laws to be passed with their signatures and blessings. McCain Feingold comes to mind, as does the Gun Control Act of 68, et al.

You might also want to take a hard look at The MC's so-called "green" agenda he announced the other day - makes Kyoto look like it was in our favor. Screw the American economy while the Chinese get free rein to pollute their little hearts out.

So, for me, vote for whomever you wish, it will not matter a tinker's damn. It is now the beginning of the hard times, so I would suggest hunkering down, stockpile necessities, follow Dave Ramsey's advice to live like no one else so you can live like no one else, and keep your powder dry.

And pray.

 

[Ron J]

Brosometal!  Good read and while I agree on much of what you said, I must disagree on a couple of points. 

“McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite. “

Not even close.  Sure, McCain who has done and will likely continue to do some things we don’t like but he is NO WHERE near what Obama is OR what Obama represents. Here are my top three issues (not in any order) when I compare B-HO to McCain.
1) Fiscal Policy – Obama is a Marxist and is going to raise taxes and redistribute income.  Think Jimmy Carter.  McCain is going to support tax cuts and limit spending.  Hopefully, he will continue to take advice from his new conservative council that is advising him.   
2) Domestic Policy – Obama is pro-choice.  McCain is pro-life.  As to the 2nd Amendment, Obama’s record is very clear.  He will with the help of a Democratic controlled House and Senate trash … no matter what the outcome of Heller is … your RKBA.  McCain will not. 
3) Foreign Policy – Obama has no clue (so we think) on how to deal with the Islamic threat.  Radical Islam has been building a body count for centuries.  Barack Hussein Obama wants to pull our troops back and talk with terrorists.  McCain wants to kill them.  This may be the one issue that is the deal breaker for McCain. 

Sit down and pull your research on Obama and everything he as said, done or associated with over his short political career.  He is completely night and day to McCain … and down right scary. 


“The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm.  I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual). "

Why would you want to deal with the immediate threat that Obama brings?  Why not work to elect more conservatives?  Why give the ultra left any momentum?  There is too much at stake to assume there is an object lesson needed!  Four to eight years of someone WORSE than Carter is going to teach conservative values how?  All it is going to do is make us dig deeper … spend more money and cost more lives to dig out of the hole we put ourselves in by letting Obama get elected.  This, as I said earlier is like trying to show someone proper gun safety by playing Russian Roulette.  Another way to look at it is that I really don’t need to get spanked by someone with a leather corset and wearing a dog collar to feel like I got screwed.


“The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above.”

Any vote that does not go to McCain is not going to help McCain defeat Barack Hussein Obama.  Reality is that at this time, there are no other candidates that are viable … meaning that they do not have the traction to win the popular AND electoral vote.  By voting for one of these other candidates who don’t have a chance in hell of winning, your vote is not going to McCain and thus is not going to help McCain win.  In what amounts as a two-horse race, if you are not helping McCain win, who are you helping to win? 


“What would it take for you to stand Ron J?” 

A few less beers than I have had today!   

My stand is ANYONE BUT B-HO!  If we can find a candidate that can get the traction, has conservative values and can beat Obama that is NOT John McCain, I am there.  But in this election … this is not going to happen.  We may not like everything that McCain has said or done BUT we don’t want to bend over for Bro’O either. 

Anyone but Obama is critical in this election.  Not being overly dramatic here but Barack Hussein Obama presents a clear danger to the United States of America.  He will put this country in an economic tailspin like no other we have ever seen.   He will trash our rights.  He will make us less safe in the war on terror.  And I think his wife is a complete bitch. 


Maybe the stand I will take in 2012 is to run for president!?! My platform …

Fiscal policy … We run the government like a for profit business and we will make a profit.  Countries that don’t play fair with us will not benefit from us either.  I want to be the first president to tell another country to f..k off on national television. 
Immigration … Employers hiring illegal aliens (BTW, calling them undocumented workers pisses me off and if I could make it a crime to use that phrase I would) will result in a substantial “holy shit” penalty.  Our borders will be closed.  Like any container, our country’s infrastructure can only support so many people.  We will get back to you when we can accept applications.  Would also caution Canada and Mexico about our liberal use of land mines. 
Domestic Policy…. English is our language.  Speak it or leave.  Women have a right to choose.  With this right comes responsibilities such as if you choose to kill your baby, you will serve time in prison for manslaughter.  Your shit for brains boyfriend, husband or one-night-stand will be castrated.  I would repeal any and all restrictions to firearms.  With this, you commit a crime with a weapon you will be deep fried. Would also make parents responsible so that if the shit for brains fruit of their loins does some bonehead crime, they will be punished as well.  Need better parents and it’s time they man or woman-up and take responsibility for the gig they enjoyed making. 
International Policy … I will put an end to this Islamo bullshit.  You want to buy some bikes and send folks down the street in black pants and white shirts to share your beliefs, that’s just fine.  But you step out of your sandbox to force your belief on the United States of America and we will incinerate you.  To this, IF any country tries to or succeeds in killing an American citizen, you will face the full wrath and force of my vengeance  … and I will not be denied justice.  I will not take a single lick of shit from any country when it comes to our safety or interests.  Iran, Syria and Venezuela you will play nice in the world and with your neighbors or I will destroy you. 

OK, what was that about too much beer?   

[Sponsor]

[brosometal]

Brosometal!  Good read and while I agree on much of what you said, I must disagree on a couple of points. 

“McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite. “

Not even close.  Sure, McCain who has done and will likely continue to do some things we don’t like but he is NO WHERE near what Obama is OR what Obama represents. Here are my top three issues (not in any order) when I compare B-HO to McCain.
1) Fiscal Policy – Obama is a Marxist and is going to raise taxes and redistribute income.  Think Jimmy Carter.  McCain is going to support tax cuts and limit spending.  Hopefully, he will continue to take advice from his new conservative council that is advising him.   
2) Domestic Policy – Obama is pro-choice.  McCain is pro-life.  As to the 2nd Amendment, Obama’s record is very clear.  He will with the help of a Democratic controlled House and Senate trash … no matter what the outcome of Heller is … your RKBA.  McCain will not. 
3) Foreign Policy – Obama has no clue (so we think) on how to deal with the Islamic threat.  Radical Islam has been building a body count for centuries.  Barack Hussein Obama wants to pull our troops back and talk with terrorists.  McCain wants to kill them.  This may be the one issue that is the deal breaker for McCain. 

Sit down and pull your research on Obama and everything he as said, done or associated with over his short political career.  He is completely night and day to McCain … and down right scary. 


“The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm.  I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual). "

Why would you want to deal with the immediate threat that Obama brings?  Why not work to elect more conservatives?  Why give the ultra left any momentum?  There is too much at stake to assume there is an object lesson needed!  Four to eight years of someone WORSE than Carter is going to teach conservative values how?  All it is going to do is make us dig deeper … spend more money and cost more lives to dig out of the hole we put ourselves in by letting Obama get elected.  This, as I said earlier is like trying to show someone proper gun safety by playing Russian Roulette.  Another way to look at it is that I really don’t need to get spanked by someone with a leather corset and wearing a dog collar to feel like I got screwed.


“The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above.”

Any vote that does not go to McCain is not going to help McCain defeat Barack Hussein Obama.  Reality is that at this time, there are no other candidates that are viable … meaning that they do not have the traction to win the popular AND electoral vote.  By voting for one of these other candidates who don’t have a chance in hell of winning, your vote is not going to McCain and thus is not going to help McCain win.  In what amounts as a two-horse race, if you are not helping McCain win, who are you helping to win? 


“What would it take for you to stand Ron J?” 

A few less beers than I have had today!   

My stand is ANYONE BUT B-HO!  If we can find a candidate that can get the traction, has conservative values and can beat Obama that is NOT John McCain, I am there.  But in this election … this is not going to happen.  We may not like everything that McCain has said or done BUT we don’t want to bend over for Bro’O either. 

Anyone but Obama is critical in this election.  Not being overly dramatic here but Barack Hussein Obama presents a clear danger to the United States of America.  He will put this country in an economic tailspin like no other we have ever seen.   He will trash our rights.  He will make us less safe in the war on terror.  And I think his wife is a complete bitch. 


Maybe the stand I will take in 2012 is to run for president!?! My platform …

Fiscal policy … We run the government like a for profit business and we will make a profit.  Countries that don’t play fair with us will not benefit from us either.  I want to be the first president to tell another country to f..k off on national television. 
Immigration … Employers hiring illegal aliens (BTW, calling them undocumented workers pisses me off and if I could make it a crime to use that phrase I would) will result in a substantial “holy shit” penalty.  Our borders will be closed.  Like any container, our country’s infrastructure can only support so many people.  We will get back to you when we can accept applications.  Would also caution Canada and Mexico about our liberal use of land mines. 
Domestic Policy…. English is our language.  Speak it or leave.  Women have a right to choose.  With this right comes responsibilities such as if you choose to kill your baby, you will serve time in prison for manslaughter.  Your shit for brains boyfriend, husband or one-night-stand will be castrated.  I would repeal any and all restrictions to firearms.  With this, you commit a crime with a weapon you will be deep fried. Would also make parents responsible so that if the shit for brains fruit of their loins does some bonehead crime, they will be punished as well.  Need better parents and it’s time they man or woman-up and take responsibility for the gig they enjoyed making. 
International Policy … I will put an end to this Islamo bullshit.  You want to buy some bikes and send folks down the street in black pants and white shirts to share your beliefs, that’s just fine.  But you step out of your sandbox to force your belief on the United States of America and we will incinerate you.  To this, IF any country tries to or succeeds in killing an American citizen, you will face the full wrath and force of my vengeance  … and I will not be denied justice.  I will not take a single lick of shit from any country when it comes to our safety or interests.  Iran, Syria and Venezuela you will play nice in the world and with your neighbors or I will destroy you. 

OK, what was that about too much beer?   

Whoa!  If you run, you have my vote.  If you are ever in Gainesville, FL, email me and I will buy you a beer (possibly two).

First, As screwed up as the US is right now, when you get down to brass tacks, Mr. Obama is unelectable.  He cannot pull the troops out like he thinks he can.  He was rebuffed in the liberal media when asked about the capital gains tax and government income.  He is unable to think on the fly without making grevious errors.  He is an elitist that cannot handle critisism.  He is unable to garner more that 50% of the democratic vote.  As is evident in the recent West Virginia vote even some democrats are unwilling to vote for him. On the outside chance that he is elected, IMHO it would be J Carter part 2: 4 and out.  The country is an aircraft carrier.  It will take miles to turn.  Obama won't swing it 180, he'll just swing it further to the left than its current drift.

Second, J McCain IMHO will be elected along with an all democrat house and senate whether or not I or others on this form vote for him.  I believe actions speak louder than words (sometimes louder than bombs).  J McCain, while OK on fiscal issues, voted against Bush's tax cuts (twice, I believe) and is willing to cross the isle to "get something done" (see the above all dem congress), however he promises to make permanent what he is on the record for being against.  Say I am a doubting Thomas, but I will believe it when I see it.

Third, After McCain's assumed (hold the assume jokes please) Mr. Obama can still run for Pres. and will have more political clout than a two-year-into-the-first-term senator. He will have been sesoned for another run at the Pres. and you will still have the Republican party thinking they don't really need a conservative base coilition.  Then what will you have?  I shudder to think.

It took a Carter to get a Reagan.  Ron J, we are on the same side we are just at odds as to what we should paint the wall. 

Pathfinder, man what a downer on a Saturday.  I tend to agree but choose to see it as half full.  Don't let the cartoons get you down.  A child raised in a conservative family will see them for what they are:  silly entertainment drawings that move.  Society in general is Leftist-feel-good bovine excriment.  Why?  Because it is easier and takes no real thought.  Katrina's detritus brought Louisiana Bobby Gendal.  People in that state will soon see a different road and the contrast will be stark.  With the talk of "watering the tree of Liberty" a part of me believes this may be the case, but I take it to a personal level.  No, I am not out whackin' leftist (although the idea has promise) when I hear someone in my peer group lean left I engage them in friendly conversation, usually with leading questions.  The left is hard to defend logically and a few well placed questions (recently about the FAIR TAX) will either get them thinking or make them out to be the jack-donkey their ideas hint they are.  Some will listen silently.  A few will be vocal.  Most all will have a seed planted.  Brother, fight the good fight.  If you are knocked down 10 times get up 11 (thanks Cool Hand Luke) and remember to stock up on essientals for when the poop hits the fan.

Back to Ron J, I saved the explitives in my post to make up for anyone who was upset with the beer fueled wirdy dords in yours.  The offer stands (or sits as the case may be), beers on me.

[Ron J]

Back to Ron J, I saved the explitives in my post to make up for anyone who was upset with the beer fueled wirdy dords in yours.  The offer stands (or sits as the case may be), beers on me.

My friend, it would be my honor to buy you a beer ... or twelve!! 

[tombogan03884]

On a differant thread some one posted a quote, " If there must be trouble let it be now so that my children may have peace."

[jerry]

I have always believed you stand up for what you believe in.  This is what this country was founded on, this is what our men and women in the armed forces are doing every day, and this is what I am going to do come November. 

If Obama gets elected because I voted for someone else that I believed in, then so be it.  I do believe that if he does get elected because some of us voted for someone beside he or McCain, it might be a good thing.  The reason I say this, IMHO, that if MC gets elected, as many of you have said, he will go along with many of the liberal ideas from the left side.  If Obama gets elected, I beleve that everybody on the right side, and many on the left side of the isle, will fight him tooth and nail.

Let's not forget, the house and senate are the ones who make the rules.  The president can suggest something, but it's the congress who will ultimately decide.  I would be willing to bet, that if either of the democratic canidates get elected, that in two years they will be in the same boat as Bush is today.  That is he can't get anythng done.

I still believe in this country and the people in it, and believe that if we don't let up pushing our conservative values, we will again have a government that serves the people and not one that has its own agenda. 

[twyacht]

Even if McCain's elected, if Congress gets a larger Democratic Majority, The magic number of 60 in the Senate, The Congress, who as jerry posted, will override every veto, and whatever socialistic, Euro, Un-American, laws San Fran Nan Pelosi or Harry Reid, and Hillary and Barack (who go back to their Senate seats anyway), those laws will pass!

Than in 2012, it all happens again.

To quote Charlie Brown; " Good Grief"...