Author Topic: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers  (Read 25342 times)

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2014, 03:20:10 PM »
Heck, even Sportsman's Guide has unfinished lowers in stock.... just got a catalog for Spring and it had one in there.

Funny thing is the jig to machine it costs more than the lower.  ;D

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/80-ar-15-lower-receiver.aspx?a=1561586


"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

tombogan03884

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2014, 02:24:37 PM »
I think you're wrong Solus, and its a hell of a thing to be wrong about as it can buy you a free vacation in club fed. I'll do some looking and post back.

FQ, After years in the business I can tell you that if the holes ain't drilled it ain't a gun, ergo, ATF don't care.

billt

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 11:08:08 AM »
The biggest problem I see with these isn't that they're made of Polymer, but rather many of them will be butchered by shade tree machinists when they try to complete them. People who are buying rifles made with these things will be purchasing a crap shoot. It's enough of a risk to purchase a kitchen table build off some mall ninja, who knows barely enough to be dangerous. When you're investing this kind of money in a weapon, you want some type of guarantee as to what you're actually getting, so you'll have some peace of mind as to reliability. This isn't it.

If you're a knowledgeable machinist who has access to an automated machine shop with the proper tooling, fixturing, and programming software, that's one thing. But that is most likely less than 10% of who will end up buying these lowers. Mostly it's people who want to skirt the law in some way, shape, or form.

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2014, 04:11:15 PM »
The biggest problem I see with these isn't that they're made of Polymer, but rather many of them will be butchered by shade tree machinists when they try to complete them. People who are buying rifles made with these things will be purchasing a crap shoot. It's enough of a risk to purchase a kitchen table build off some mall ninja, who knows barely enough to be dangerous. When you're investing this kind of money in a weapon, you want some type of guarantee as to what you're actually getting, so you'll have some peace of mind as to reliability. This isn't it.

If you're a knowledgeable machinist who has access to an automated machine shop with the proper tooling, fixturing, and programming software, that's one thing. But that is most likely less than 10% of who will end up buying these lowers. Mostly it's people who want to skirt the law in some way, shape, or form.

You are correct on the 'shade-tree' thing.

The thing is, these are not supposed to be sold once made into a working lower, unless registered with the BATFE with a serial number as a licensed manufacturer would do.
It is not illegal to BUILD your own gun, you just aren't SUPPOSED to SELL it once built (if I understand the regulations correctly).
Legally, the person building the rifle is the end owner.


I know that doesn't mean they aren't sold by people outside the law, so I am not disagreeing with what you are saying.
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

billt

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2014, 05:51:22 PM »
IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #35 on: Today at 06:45:52 AM »

Magoo541

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 11:08:41 AM »
IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.

You can buy these from a quite a few places.  You can also buy 0% and make them from scratch.  I posted a tutorial in the Builders Forum and you can use part of that to do the last 20% on the 80% lowers.  I am one of the "lucky ones" that has or has access to a mill/lathe and the tooling/abilities to do all the work myself.  It isn't easy taking the 0% to 100% and I would suggest doing the 80%, the value in the machining already done is HUGE.
He who dares wins.  SAS

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 02:28:40 PM »
IIRC you can also purchase "80%" Aluminum lowers as well. These would require even more precise fixturing and cutting to complete per Mil-Spec. While Aluminum machines easily compared to steel, it is substantially more difficult to cut than Polymer. Especially if it is forged T-7075. Some of that stuff is pretty tough and abrasive on tooling.

I worked in the aluminum industry for nearly twenty years......to be such a 'soft' metal, it can be a PITA.
Some aluminum alloys can be extremely rough on tooling.....aluminum oxide is used as an abrasive in many applications.
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

PegLeg45

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2014, 12:36:49 PM »
Just saw this article posted on FB on a gun page.......interesting.

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/#6Z6BoExdrRpxQWKd.01


Quote
The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list to federal agents.
Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.

Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didn’t hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.


It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications.  The base is not considered a firearm if it’s sold separately.

A manufacturer made an 80 percent receiver in plastic with a different material and colors which show exactly where the customer can drill making it easier and cheaper to build.  The ATF said it is illegal.

The ATF sent stores, including Ares Armor, letters demanding they turn over the products and names of customers who purchased them.


“They said either give us these 5000 names or we are coming in and taking pretty much anything – which is a huge privacy concern and something we are not willing to do,” said Karras.

Karras’s attorney informed the ATF to pick up the receivers Wednesday morning at their Oceanside location, but the inventory was not the issue. The store owner said he will not comply with turning over their private client list.

“They were going to search all of our facilities and confiscate our computer and pretty much shut our business down,” said Karras.  “The government invades our privacy on a daily basis and everyone thinks its ok. This is one of those situations where hopefully the governmental institutions will come in say this is protected and no you’re not taking it from them.”

In anticipation of a raid, they filed a temporary restraining order against the ATF, stopping them from confiscating their property, Karras said.  The ATF has a certain amount of time to respond. If the two parties do not reach a compromise, they will be in court for a preliminary hearing March 20.


"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

billt

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2014, 08:37:37 AM »
Because of their very controlling nature, I doubt the ATF is going to let this "80%" lower business continue much longer. Especially when you consider how the whole concept is gaining in popularity. People don't want the government to know their business, or what they have. The government wants to know and control as much as they possibly can. They don't like or want any part of this. All that remains is for a major crime or shooting to take place with one of these weapons, and the ability to purchase untraceable receivers will be gone.

I've said much the same about Tannerite. As soon as some whack job blows something or someone up with the stuff, it will disappear faster than toilet paper after a Cholera outbreak. Then we'll have to listen to the MSM harp on about, "How could they let such dangerous material be sold to the general public without any traceability?" I think the reason both of these are still available is because the uber liberal MSM is too ignorant to even report on their existence. They've got enough trouble understanding 30 round magazines do not come pre loaded with ammunition. 

Solus

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Re: No FFL 80% Polymer Lowers
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2014, 09:22:20 AM »
I've never understood the emphasis on tracking the receiver.

If you want to shoot someone with your 45ACP, get an after market barrel.  Nothing at the scene of the shooting can connect it to your receiver.

Even if micro stamping is implemented, there is still noting at the scene to link to your receiver.  Might have to dump the slide and the barrel to be "clean", but the receiver is clear.

If you police your brass, the bullet and some powder residue is all that might be at the scene and the bullet is identified by markings from the barrel. 

There was talk of "taggants"  in the powder but I don't think it went anywhere and there are so many ways to muddy that trail, it would be useless.

Not hard for any criminal to minimize or eliminate any risk from all this.....but then, we've known for a long time that hindering the criminal is not the objective of any gun control measures.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
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