Author Topic: Disarming citizens during traffic stops  (Read 22183 times)

Rob10ring

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2009, 05:02:53 AM »
I don't know where this idea of holy state's rights is really coming from. The people's rights should always preclude the others. Next would be states, then federal. The idea of a federal CCW would be somewhat better, just because there would be no questions about what the law is. However, CCW shouldn't be needed by a people who have a right to arms. Bearing arms shouldn't be restricted by location. Wherever you are, your gun should be there too (or at least be allowed to be there).

TAB

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2009, 05:09:11 AM »
We have ahd gun control in this country since well before it was founded.  CCW has never been a right nation wide, NEVER.  Its also a new concept.  Up until just recently concealing a gun was viewed as something only crimals did.

If you look at the history of this country, its only about the last 75ish years that "uninfringed" has been taken to mean, no restrictions what so ever.  FWIW, we have no rights that are not retstricted.  Every single one of them has some type of restrcition on it, why should the 2a be diffrent from the rest?

 
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

TAB

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2009, 05:14:03 AM »
I don't know where this idea of holy state's rights is really coming from. The people's rights should always preclude the others. Next would be states, then federal. The idea of a federal CCW would be somewhat better, just because there would be no questions about what the law is. However, CCW shouldn't be needed by a people who have a right to arms. Bearing arms shouldn't be restricted by location. Wherever you are, your gun should be there too (or at least be allowed to be there).


The laws of one state, should never be allowed to super seed the laws of another.  Its just that simple.

Lets just say you live in state A, where you can legally CCW, but you want to go to state B, where if you lived there you would be DQed.  Tell me how its fair to state B, if you can legally CCW there do to your own states laws. 
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

Pathfinder

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2009, 06:47:52 AM »
We have ahd gun control in this country since well before it was founded.  CCW has never been a right nation wide, NEVER.  Its also a new concept.  Up until just recently concealing a gun was viewed as something only crimals did.

If you look at the history of this country, its only about the last 75ish years that "uninfringed" has been taken to mean, no restrictions what so ever.  FWIW, we have no rights that are not retstricted.  Every single one of them has some type of restrcition on it, why should the 2a be diffrent from the rest?

A typical Tab response, but still not at all true. Starting at the top:

Early gun control in this country was to mandate ownership of firearms and sufficient powder and ball to serve in the militia. Rather different than today's gun-grabber version.

OK, you got one - CCW is a new concept. See next paragraph.

CCW is a modern concept used because states fear gun-bearing citizens and compromised on CCW to allow State approved (like that phrase?) citizens to carry. Therefore, as a "right" to keep and bear arms, it is viewed today more as a gummint approved privilege and not a right as enumerated in the US Constitution (and numerous state Constitutions as well)

Concealing firearms - for a while everyone carried concealed, it was assumed in the violent and rough cities and in the old West, gentlemen were always assumed to be carrying. Where did all of those small pocket revolvers - and John Moses Browning's early automatics - come from? Why were these invented? To fill a need of course. Old urban papers had numerous ads for pocket holsters, pants with reinforced pockets for carrying a pistol that could be easily retrieved. If you read the accounts of the gunfight at the OK Corral (a nearby alley actually, but that is another conversation), Wyatt Earp had his revolver in his coat pocket. Virgil had stuck his in his pants waistband near the small of his back after Behan had informed them that the cowboys had been disarmed. Carrying concealed was SOP.

"Uninfringed" - wrong, the language was used in the 2A because it was intended to be absolute. Having just come out of the Revolutionary War, where arms were required, and in fact the people were products of the very culture that mandated arms, they would not have been in a mindset of "well, sometimes yes, sometimes, no". Read the anti-Federalist papers especially, as well as some of the correspondences among the key players and it is clear that they never intended for there to be "reasonable" restrictions on the rights in the Bill of Rights. Those restrictions are a fairly recent idea, although violating the Constitution by the gummint and President does go way back almost to the beginning.

Consider:
- the Kelo case which gutted the second part of the 5th Amendment,
- the idea that a judge can grant immunity to violate the first part of your 5A rights,
- the morphing into law all sorts of PC nonsense violating part of the 1a,
- warrantless searches violating the 4th Amendment
- the lawsuits (and threats) violating the second part of the freedom of religion clause of the 1A which everyone (especially activist judges) like to ignore  - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; "
- the wholesale abandonment of the 9th and 10th Amendments.

Not to mention the adoption of the idea of citizens' "privileges" which violate rights to "liberty and pursuit of happiness" so that states and Feds can tax the crap out of an activity. Think driving, licenses (you and the vehicle) and the taxes on cars, gasoline, etc.

Oliver Wendell Holmes (a man I used to admire, like Lincoln, but who now I see as instrumental in destroying the Constitutional basis of this country) made his famous comment about not having the right to yell fire in a crowded theater. I covered that in another post - you have a right (and an obligation if there is a fire) to yell fire falsely in a crowded theater, but as with all rights come responsibilities. If you shoot out a lamppost with a firearm and kill someone on the second floor of a building, you can and will be charged with some crime because you had the right to keep and bear arms, but you did not have the right to kill that person. Same with yelling fire - you have the right, you also have the onerous responsibilities that come with it.

The restrictions have been added by people who do not understand or value the US Constitution - people in various gummints positions, not citizens. Think Cynthia McKinney who became a representative solely to get rid of gun rights because her husband was killed on the LIRR. Short sighted and ignorant, but she is there. That is how we get the so-called "reasonable restrictions" on our rights. It's not that they are "normal" - they are added by people with political and financial agendas.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

J.B. Books

TAB

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2009, 08:24:34 AM »
you need to brush up on your history.  Many citys had no fire arms inside of city limits laws before and after this country was founded. Also the old western movie thing about "no guns in town" is for the most part also true, many cow/railroad towns did pass laws saying no firearms in town.   Its only in the living record that unifringed has ment you can't pass any gun laws. 

Show me where is says bare arms = concealed carry.   bare arms does not mean carry, it means bring to bare, as in against the goverment or forign invadors.   The idea that bare arms means I can have a gun with me at all times, is strickly a modern idea.





   


I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #55 on: Today at 08:11:37 AM »

Fatman

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2009, 08:55:40 AM »
you need to brush up on your history.  Many citys had no fire arms inside of city limits laws before and after this country was founded. Also the old western movie thing about "no guns in town" is for the most part also true, many cow/railroad towns did pass laws saying no firearms in town.   Its only in the living record that unifringed has ment you can't pass any gun laws. 

Show me where is says bare arms = concealed carry.   bare arms does not mean carry, it means bring to bare, as in against the goverment or forign invadors.   The idea that bare arms means I can have a gun with me at all times, is strickly a modern idea.



   





You have the right to bare arms anytime you want, TAB. I'd be upset if carrying your arms concealed was banned. If the UV index is extraordinarily high you may want to conceal those arms to prevent sunburn.




Anti: I think some of you gentleman would choose to apply a gun shaped remedy to any problem or potential problem that presented itself? Your reverance (sic) for firearms is maintained with an almost religious zeal. The mind boggles! it really does...

Me: Naw, we just apply a gun-shaped remedy to those extreme life threatening situations that call for it. All the less urgent problems we're willing to discuss.

tombogan03884

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2009, 11:12:12 AM »
TAB is, as usual, talking out his pelosi.  If he had read history, or for that matter listened to the coverage of what was said during the Heller case he would know that that his arguments have been resisted as repressive since at least the 1600's.
The ONLY reason for controlling arms is to control people by a government that does not have the support of those people.

HAWKFISH

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »
TAB is, as usual, talking out his pelosi.  If he had read history, or for that matter listened to the coverage of what was said during the Heller case he would know that that his arguments have been resisted as repressive since at least the 1600's.
The ONLY reason for controlling arms is to control people by a government that does not have the support of those people.

+1

I'm glad I don't live in California. People that live there are either brainwashed, ingnorant of common sense, or they are good, smart, logical people having to endure and suffer through because of the other idiots rules, laws, and ideas of their state. My advice.. move and hope that all the crazy's are in CA when it falls off into the ocean.

Rastus

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2009, 01:15:45 PM »
you need to brush up on your history.  Many citys had no fire arms inside of city limits laws before and after this country was founded. Also the old western movie thing about "no guns in town" is for the most part also true, many cow/railroad towns did pass laws saying no firearms in town.   Its only in the living record that unifringed has ment you can't pass any gun laws. 

Show me where is says bare arms = concealed carry.   bare arms does not mean carry, it means bring to bare, as in against the goverment or forign invadors.   The idea that bare arms means I can have a gun with me at all times, is strickly a modern idea.

I know you are sincere...but someone sold you a pig in the poke in your educational system.

I hate that for you because you have such good intentions.  I remember the old men carrying guns around in south Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama 45 years ago..in the open in towns of 15k to 25k people.  Even in Baton Rouge in the early 60's...wasn't common, but it did happen.  Not so much a need for it then...things have changed since we are the tolerant, enlightened, baby-killing society that we now are.

In fact, recently in a suburb area of Baton Rouge, Gonzales, the Gonzales PD lost a lawsuit on open carry...the police chief won't talk about the settlement.  He made the asine statement that he did not care what the law was and arrested an open carry citizen.....cost them a bit of coin.

You can find that one on a search...it's recent.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)
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Thanos

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Re: Disarming citizens during traffic stops
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2009, 01:53:00 PM »
you need to brush up on your history.  Many citys had no fire arms inside of city limits laws before and after this country was founded. Also the old western movie thing about "no guns in town" is for the most part also true, many cow/railroad towns did pass laws saying no firearms in town.   Its only in the living record that unifringed has ment you can't pass any gun laws. 

Show me where is says bare arms = concealed carry.   bare arms does not mean carry, it means bring to bare, as in against the goverment or forign invadors.   The idea that bare arms means I can have a gun with me at all times, is strickly a modern idea.

You need to brush up on your spelling:
Citys: Not a real word
Cities: the plural of City

Bare: to not be covered
Bear: to present or expose to others through action

 

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