The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: BKS on December 20, 2007, 11:10:30 AM
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Anybody got one of the lever actions, cut down with XS sights, etc. Im working on one, got the barrel shortened to 16" XS ghost rings, scout mount, and run out of money there :'(
Anybody got one please post pics.
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The coolest ones are the ones from Jim West at Wild West Guns in Alaska:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
I don't have one, but the people that I know who do have them swear by them. Their SBR "Bushwhackers" are too totally cool! I keep a Winchester '94 Trapper in .44 Magnum in my bedroom, usually loaded with 240-gr JHPs from Black Hills. I've put a lot of rounds through the gun over the years, and it has been flawless (I know their reputations are something less).
I've been half-way thinking about getting a Marlin Guide Gun or 1895 in .45/70 and tricking it out a little to give me a more powerful option...
Michael B
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Thanks for reply. I hope to finish mine in the future. I call it my politically correct patrol rifle. Glad I found this forum.
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A couple years ago I turned my Marlin 336 into a Scout rifle with forward mounted Leupold M-7. Then last year I saw MadOgre's cut down 3030 wih black stock. I cut my barrel to 16.75 inchs, bought the plastic stock from Ramline, and added a red dot sight. Also put on a home made flashlight mount on the mag tube.(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166/Timo444/000_1331.jpg)
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Hy Erik;
If you're around, what would you think of a 1-day Tactical Lever Gun class in Tulsa?
I'd like to do it for SHOOTING GALLERY 2009, and maybe Marshal and I could video the whole thing and make it available to the Forum...
Michael B
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LMIB, I love the old Dodge!!!
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Hy Erik;
If you're around, what would you think of a 1-day Tactical Lever Gun class in Tulsa?
I'd like to do it for SHOOTING GALLERY 2009, and maybe Marshal and I could video the whole thing and make it available to the Forum...
Michael B
Sounds like one I can't wait to see! I'd like to get me a .454 Casull Lever action with a 16 inch barrel and large loop lever. Oh, and BTW Michael, the Guide guns are awesome. My dad has one.
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I've had this urge for a Guide Gun, but lack the spare bucks...I think 45/70 is one of the best cartridges ever, and I've been thinking that the bedroom .44 Magnum Trapper could easily be replaced with a 45/70 Hammer of God...
Michael B
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I have a Puma .454 that I keep loaded by the bed. 18 inch ported barrel. It's a thumper.
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I've had this urge for a Guide Gun, but lack the spare bucks...I think 45/70 is one of the best cartridges ever, and I've been thinking that the bedroom .44 Magnum Trapper could easily be replaced with a 45/70 Hammer of God...
Michael B
"I've had this urge for a (Insert currently lusted for Gun{s} here), but lack the spare bucks"
Story of my life. S&W 649 with Lasergrips, Charter Arms Bulldog, Puma .454, and now the Kahr PM45 now that it's here....... The Snubbies are the ones I want the most at the moment.
And yeah the .45-70 will definitely STRIKE DOWN any sinner that breaks into your home in the dead of night.... Be it man or Grizzly. Anyone else think S&W should chamber their X-frame revolver for .45-70??? The Puma 454 is the Lever action I want. I want mine with a 16 inch barrel and a large loop lever (That's the John Wayne fan in me.).
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I have a Puma .454 that I keep loaded by the bed. 18 inch ported barrel. It's a thumper.
A local gun shop around here has a Puma in .45 Colt with the 16 inch barrel and Large loop lever, and it feels real nice, but I'd want the .454 so I could use either round. Same reason I don't buy .38 Special revolvers. WHy buy a .38 Special ONLY revolver when you can get the same gun chambered for .357 Magnum and still shoot all the .38's you want to through it?
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"I've had this urge for a (Insert currently lusted for Gun{s} here), but lack the spare bucks"
Story of my life. S&W 649 with Lasergrips, Charter Arms Bulldog, Puma .454, and now the Kahr PM45 now that it's here....... The Snubbies are the ones I want the most at the moment.
And yeah the .45-70 will definitely STRIKE DOWN any sinner that breaks into your home in the dead of night.... Be it man or Grizzly. Anyone else think S&W should chamber their X-frame revolver for .45-70??? The Puma 454 is the Lever action I want. I want mine with a 16 inch barrel and a large loop lever (That's the John Wayne fan in me.).
http://www.magnumresearch.com/ has one chamber for 45/70 ( or did) The X frame cylinder is too short... I was lucky enought to play with one of thier prototypes( was working at a FFL) Anyways while I was holding the 100 oz beast( with scope mounted and a mussle break) a group of us was talking to the rep, long story short, he said a few of the engineers were thinking about building one that was chamber in .223. Now I don't want a 460 or a 500, but I want a Xframe chambered in 223 ;D
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http://www.magnumresearch.com/ has one chamber for 45/70.....
I've Got one (They're sweet!). But I'd like to see somebody do a DA revolver in .45-70.
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A couple years ago I turned my Marlin 336 into a Scout rifle with forward mounted Leupold M-7. Then last year I saw MadOgre's cut down 3030 wih black stock. I cut my barrel to 16.75 inchs, bought the plastic stock from Ramline, and added a red dot sight. Also put on a home made flashlight mount on the mag tube.(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166/Timo444/000_1331.jpg)
You are my hero
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Here's a tactical lever Action I really like.
(http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Bushwacker2.jpg) ;D
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Was looking at the new products page for Shot 2008 and found this, me thinks we gotta have. Hope the pic comes out.
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Hi all, I'm new to this forum. I've been watching the tv show for a while now and really enjoy it.
This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm an auditor (C.P.A.) by vocation, and so I have to travel ALOT! I spend a minimum of 10 to 12 weeks each year on the road. Because I travel through so many different municipalities, I'm never really sure what the laws are as to semi auto firearms in possession. For this, and many other reasons, I choose to carry a nice, short Marlin .357 Mag in my trunk. With the 10+1 capacity and the fast lever, but still looking like a cowboy gun, it is as near to a politically correct assult rifle as I can find. I have (thankfully) never needed to use it or even brandish it, but it sure is a comfort when the tire goes flat and I'm on a lonely streatch of highway. I just take an old army blanket and fold it over. I keep the carbine in the fold. That way, if I get a flat, I just pull the blanket out and lay it infront of the bad tire so I have a kneeling pad. It looks innocent enough, and when I put my tools away, I put the blanket back in the trunk. However, if things ever go bad, all I have to do is reach under the fold of the blanket and I have alot of comfort in my hands.
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Hi all, I'm new to this forum. I've been watching the tv show for a while now and really enjoy it.
This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm an auditor (C.P.A.) by vocation, and so I have to travel ALOT! I spend a minimum of 10 to 12 weeks each year on the road. Because I travel through so many different municipalities, I'm never really sure what the laws are as to semi auto firearms in possession. For this, and many other reasons, I choose to carry a nice, short Marlin .357 Mag in my trunk. With the 10+1 capacity and the fast lever, but still looking like a cowboy gun, it is as near to a politically correct assult rifle as I can find. I have (thankfully) never needed to use it or even brandish it, but it sure is a comfort when the tire goes flat and I'm on a lonely streatch of highway. I just take an old army blanket and fold it over. I keep the carbine in the fold. That way, if I get a flat, I just pull the blanket out and lay it infront of the bad tire so I have a kneeling pad. It looks innocent enough, and when I put my tools away, I put the blanket back in the trunk. However, if things ever go bad, all I have to do is reach under the fold of the blanket and I have alot of comfort in my hands.
Watch out for hunting laws, In Maine possession of a rifle on Sunday is considered "Prima Facia" evidence of illegal hunting, other states could be just as odd
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Wow! Thanks Tom...I never even thought of that one! Way too many laws. Somehow, I don't think that our forefathers had this in mind when they framed our government.
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My wife and I went that way several years ago. .357, 4" barrel handguns and .357, 16" barrel lever actions. She has the Puma M92, I needed the Winchester Trapper, bifocals don't work with iron sights. I tried the XS "scout" scope mount but didn't like the idea of epoxying the mount to the barrel, so I'm just using a compact, 2x scope.
I wish that they made some type of scout scope mount for the Puma, I really like that gun.
The lever guns don't bother people like the black guns do, and short of all out war, the .357 will solve any problem we're likely to encounter in upstate New York.
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My wife and I went that way several years ago. .357, 4" barrel handguns and .357, 16" barrel lever actions. She has the Puma M92, I needed the Winchester Trapper, bifocals don't work with iron sights. I tried the XS "scout" scope mount but didn't like the idea of epoxying the mount to the barrel, so I'm just using a compact, 2x scope.
I wish that they made some type of scout scope mount for the Puma, I really like that gun.
The lever guns don't bother people like the black guns do, and short of all out war, the .357 will solve any problem we're likely to encounter in upstate New York.
Hey Unique go look at Legacy Arms web site, I beleive they are offering the Puma in a Scout configuration this year. Problem is you have to buy the whole package, not just the mount.
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I thought I was done buying guns for awhile. Maybe just one more...
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I thought I was done buying guns for awhile. Maybe just one more...
We'll get you in trouble :D
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+10
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I thought you guys might want to take a peak over at the 50 Caliber Forums, where they've got a special thread on big bore tactical lever actions. You can see it here:
http://50caliberforum.proboards99.com/index.cgi?board=alaskanleveractionguidegun
I'm liking this more and more as an episode of SHOOTING GALLERY and/or DRTV. Maybe package it with shooting this mare's leg pistol:
http://www.jbcustom.com/new-mares.htm
And some custom guns from Wild West:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
Sort of an orgy of exotic lever actions!
Michael B
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I've really got to win the lottery.
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Did I post the pics of my upgraded peep sights on my 454/45 Puma here?
It is my goto gun now. Out to 100 yards I WILL hit where I aim. It is fast and easy to handle (18") and with either .45 (hot or cowboy) or the .454 thumpers I feel well armed.
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Did I post the pics of my upgraded peep sights on my 454/45 Puma here?
It is my goto gun now. Out to 100 yards I WILL hit where I aim. It is fast and easy to handle (18") and with either .45 (hot or cowboy) or the .454 thumpers I feel well armed.
That .45/.454 is that like the .44/.44 mag or .38/.357 magnum were you can shoot the lighter caliber in any gun chambered for the larger ?
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That .45/.454 is that like the .44/.44 mag or .38/.357 magnum were you can shoot the lighter caliber in any gun chambered for the larger ?
Yep! Mine is an 18" ported barrel model (no longer in production). I removed the safety and put a peep sight on and moved the front sight father forward (actually NOT me but a gun smith). The sights are Marlin. It had HiViz sights but I didn't like them. I kept staring at the dots instead of getting a good sight picture. Guess I'm just too old school. :D
Heres a pic.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/100_0991.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/100_0996.jpg)
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Cool gun!
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Cool gun!
Thanks. One of the things I like about this model is that you can unscrew the front of the magazine tube and dump the cartridges to unload. Not all of the Pumas do that.
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Sweet
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I thought you guys might want to take a peak over at the 50 Caliber Forums, where they've got a special thread on big bore tactical lever actions. You can see it here:
http://50caliberforum.proboards99.com/index.cgi?board=alaskanleveractionguidegun
I'm liking this more and more as an episode of SHOOTING GALLERY and/or DRTV. Maybe package it with shooting this mare's leg pistol:
http://www.jbcustom.com/new-mares.htm
And some custom guns from Wild West:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
Sort of an orgy of exotic lever actions!
Michael B
YES!!
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Did I mention that we're giving away one of the new Mossberg .30-30 lever guns with a 2.5 Leupold scope and a free entry into our Tactical Lever Action Rifle class later this summer????????
Video coming real soon...
Michael B
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Michael,
Sorry for the slow reply, but I missed this thread. I saw "Lever-Action" in the title and I immediately thought, "Cowboy Action" and I skipped it.
This is a very interesting concept. Let me think on it a bit and I'll get back to you. My LA skills are a bit.....rusty!
Erik
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The coolest ones are the ones from Jim West at Wild West Guns in Alaska:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
I don't have one, but the people that I know who do have them swear by them. Their SBR "Bushwhackers" are too totally cool! I keep a Winchester '94 Trapper in .44 Magnum in my bedroom, usually loaded with 240-gr JHPs from Black Hills. I've put a lot of rounds through the gun over the years, and it has been flawless (I know their reputations are something less).
I've been half-way thinking about getting a Marlin Guide Gun or 1895 in .45/70 and tricking it out a little to give me a more powerful option...
Michael B
Having fired several Wild West Creations I can say that Mike is on the money.
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I have heard of some creative use of large caliber lever guns over in Iraq by our troops. For a relatively lightweight gun something like a Marlin Guidegun in 45/70 has unequalled stopping power. At a shooting session at "the Pit" I introduced some friends to my Marlin 1894FG 41mag. All of them have extensive tacticle gun collections so the initial responce was "yeah I"ll try your lever gun". But after seeing how it quickly thumps whatever you aim at at 100+ yds with a 210gr slug the replies were more like "I gotta have one of those". Now if it were only belt fed ........
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MB.
In the give away vid you called the lever action the "base line" tactical rifle, let's face it, the lever action is the ORIGINAL tactical rifle!
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Just curious if a specific date has been set for the Tactical Lever gun course, and what the price might be?
Just wondering.....and thinking about that Marlin .44 mag I've got in the safe right now.
Roy Hill
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Haven't set the date and time yet...Moderator Lund is still pondering!
Got some good news from Chiappa Firearms yesterday...the "Michael Bane Version" of their superb Winchester M92 clones (imported by my good pal Mike Harvey at Cimarron Firearms) is 60-90 days out. The "MB Version" will be a 16-inch Trapper take-down version in .44 Magnum. Of course, we'll be giving one (or more) away here on DRTV, but I'm hoping I can arrange a special pricing discount for Forum members.
Next week, I'm going to start on Dave Biggars at XS Sights on designing a Scout scope mount for the petite M92...my goal is to use a Micro Aimpoint on the rail.
Michael B
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Of course, we'll be giving one (or more) away here on DRTV
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I need one in .357 please. Sorry to be difficult.
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Yeaaaa MB!!,
I loves me some lever guns! Will this scout scope mount be for any 92 and will it get in the way of using the iron sights?
What is the ballpark price on that 44 take down (without special pricing)?
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Look at that Hazcat foam at the mouth. ;D
I thought it was supposed to be "catnip" that did that and now i find out its leverguns.
Who da thunk it so.
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Don;
No problemo:
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/RepeatingRifles/1892Model.htm#
The .44s are the last of the litter to get made...
Michael B
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Look at that Hazcat foam at the mouth. ;D
I thought it was supposed to be "catnip" that did that and now i find out its leverguns.
Who da thunk it so.
But that IS catnip!
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The coolest ones are the ones from Jim West at Wild West Guns in Alaska:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
I don't have one, but the people that I know who do have them swear by them. Their SBR "Bushwhackers" are too totally cool! I keep a Winchester '94 Trapper in .44 Magnum in my bedroom, usually loaded with 240-gr JHPs from Black Hills. I've put a lot of rounds through the gun over the years, and it has been flawless (I know their reputations are something less).
I've been half-way thinking about getting a Marlin Guide Gun or 1895 in .45/70 and tricking it out a little to give me a more powerful option...
Michael B
Michael,
I agree. Last year when I decided I wanted to get into cowboy stuff, I researched lever guns and came across their site. I couldn't stop drooling when I looked at their Alaskan Co-pilot. Since I live in Minneapolis/St. Paul MN and don't hunt much anymore I could not justify spending that kind of money, so i bought a Marlin 1894c in 357 magnum/38 Special. I put XS ghost ring sights on it and it is very accurate and extremely fun. I can also use it to hunt if I so choose. I have always had an affinity for lever guns ever since I saw an old Marlin 30/30 at a fishing lodge my Dad's friend owned outside of Red Lake Ontario. I was 11 at the time. I asked my dad about it and he told me the story of how One-eyed Billy Z. (a One-eyed truck driver) used it to chase a bear out of the kitchen one night. It's funny how that story has always stayed with me for some 30 years and is attached to every lever gun I see. I love shooting my Marlin because it just has so much character and I feel like Lucas McCain every time I shoot it (Mine doesn't have the trick lever though!). I bought the .357 because I knew I was going to use it alot and the 38's are a cheaper option when shooting alot of rounds. If I decide to get into hunting, I would buy the guide gun.
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Hi all, I'm new to this forum. I've been watching the tv show for a while now and really enjoy it.
This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm an auditor (C.P.A.) by vocation, and so I have to travel ALOT! I spend a minimum of 10 to 12 weeks each year on the road. Because I travel through so many different municipalities, I'm never really sure what the laws are as to semi auto firearms in possession. For this, and many other reasons, I choose to carry a nice, short Marlin .357 Mag in my trunk. With the 10+1 capacity and the fast lever, but still looking like a cowboy gun, it is as near to a politically correct assult rifle as I can find. I have (thankfully) never needed to use it or even brandish it, but it sure is a comfort when the tire goes flat and I'm on a lonely streatch of highway. I just take an old army blanket and fold it over. I keep the carbine in the fold. That way, if I get a flat, I just pull the blanket out and lay it infront of the bad tire so I have a kneeling pad. It looks innocent enough, and when I put my tools away, I put the blanket back in the trunk. However, if things ever go bad, all I have to do is reach under the fold of the blanket and I have alot of comfort in my hands.
Cayoot,
I have a Marlin 357 also. I don't use it as a defense gun since I have an unpolitically correct Remington 870 with ghost rings and surefire forend always at my beck and call at home. However, I put XS ghost ring sights on the Marlin and would not hesitate to use it if I had to. I practice with it alot and shoot at paper targets with it. It is very easy to rattle off the magazine in a heartbeat. Did I mention that it is also extremely fun?
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I thought you guys might want to take a peak over at the 50 Caliber Forums, where they've got a special thread on big bore tactical lever actions. You can see it here:
http://50caliberforum.proboards99.com/index.cgi?board=alaskanleveractionguidegun
I'm liking this more and more as an episode of SHOOTING GALLERY and/or DRTV. Maybe package it with shooting this mare's leg pistol:
http://www.jbcustom.com/new-mares.htm
And some custom guns from Wild West:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
Sort of an orgy of exotic lever actions!
Michael B
Michael,
I think that would be great! I am a big fan of black guns, but I feel there must be a place reserved for lever action rifles and single action pistols! They are our American heritage!
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I'll keep watching this thread for a date and cost.
I can drive to Tulsa in less than two hours.
Boom......clack-clack........boom.......clack-clack........
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Mr. Bane, I'd just like to say thank you for all your great pod-casts!
The Tactical lever gun topic really caught my eye, I've been useing a Winchester .44Mag trapper for years as a bed side gun and a trunk gun. My thought has always been, If I ever have to use my gun, I will be in court defending myself against anti-gunners. If I defend myself with an "EVIL BLACK RIFLE" then they will call me "RAMBO" but if I use a lever gun.....the worst they could call me was "JOHN WAYNE" and all you need is one John Wayne fan on a jurry!!! Heck you cant call yourself an American if you dont like John Wayne!!!
Lately I've been looking at my 30/30's and maybe buy'n a .357mag lever gun as politically correct defence rifle, and I just bought the 1895 Marlin (45/70) for hunting. I mounted a Williams WGRS rear sight and will be useing Black Powder loads! Heck it was good enough to drop Bison 100 years ago, so It should work on bears today!
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Mr. Bane, I'd just like to say thank you for all your great pod-casts!
The Tactical lever gun topic really caught my eye, I've been useing a Winchester .44Mag trapper for years as a bed side gun and a trunk gun. My thought has always been, If I ever have to use my gun, I will be in court defending myself against anti-gunners. If I defend myself with an "EVIL BLACK RIFLE" then they will call me "RAMBO" but if I use a lever gun.....the worst they could call me was "JOHN WAYNE" and all you need is one John Wayne fan on a jurry!!! Heck you cant call yourself an American if you dont like John Wayne!!!
Lately I've been looking at my 30/30's and maybe buy'n a .357mag lever gun as politically correct defence rifle, and I just bought the 1895 Marlin (45/70) for hunting. I mounted a Williams WGRS rear sight and will be useing Black Powder loads! Heck it was good enough to drop Bison 100 years ago, so It should work on bears today!
Sounds like you have some good lever guns. Can't go wrong with the Marlin 1894C. I love mine. It is good for self defense as well as a fun gun to shoot at the range with 38 specials. i buy them in bulk since my Marlin is my favorite rifle to shoot at the range. Plus it is fun to practice with snap caps in the basement. Rapid firing lever guns is fun and good exercise to boot!
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My all time favorite is my original 1895 Winchester in caliber .30 US GOVT.-1906, Yes sir a lever action .30-06 and I dont need any of those new plastic tip'd bullets. It sure is a tack driver with 220 grain bullets.
But there's no way I'm going to make that into a tactical lever gun, closet it ever came was during the 911 scare in NY when I keeped it close at hand loaded with AP rounds....just in case
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My all time favorite is my original 1895 Winchester in caliber .30 US GOVT.-1906, Yes sir a lever action .30-06 and I dont need any of those new plastic tip'd bullets. It sure is a tack driver with 220 grain bullets.
But there's no way I'm going to make that into a tactical lever gun, closet it ever came was during the 911 scare in NY when I keeped it close at hand loaded with AP rounds....just in case
Do you have a rifle or carbine and is it civilian or military style?
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Mine is of 1910 vintage Sporting Rifle in VG/Excellent condition.
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Sweet! Those are some good looking rifles!
Where did ya get it?
I bet with that steel butt plate it kicks a bit. :D
Oh! One more thing.....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/youforgottopostpicturesofyourweapon.jpg)
;D ;D
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Anybody got one of the lever actions, cut down with XS sights, etc. Im working on one, got the barrel shortened to 16" XS ghost rings, scout mount, and run out of money there :'(
Anybody got one please post pics.
I just have a 100th anniversary Winchester 94 Trapper Model in .44 Magnum. That kicks hard enough for me since I have arthritis in both shoulders. I cut the magazine tube down from 9 rounds to 5. It looks really nice with the half magazine tube. It sticks out far enough past the forearm to have a sling swivel on it. I put a Williams peep sight on, and had Williams put on a Pachmyr recoil pad. I have a 2.5x Burris scope that I haven't got around to mounting yet. I think the Trapper models look better with peep sights than scopes anyway. Even a compact scope looks big on it, but I already have that scope so I should use it. It has a leather sling in QD swivels and the rest is factory stock. I don't have any pictures, but it's nothing fancy anyway.
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Anybody got one of the lever actions, cut down with XS sights, etc. Im working on one, got the barrel shortened to 16" XS ghost rings, scout mount, and run out of money there :'(
Anybody got one please post pics.
I have another idea for a "tactical" lever action. How about a Winchester 94 or a Marlin rechambered to .357 MAXIMUM? I just got a bunch of .357 Max ammo for my Contender pistol from Reed's Ammunition & Research http://www.reedsammo.com/. I haven't shot it yet but it seems to be top quality stuff. I think all it would take to modify a .357 Magnum lever action to fire the .357 Maximum is to ream the chamber .3 inch deeper, and mill a like amount off the cartridge stop portion of the shell lifter if it's made the same way as my .44 Trapper. Then you could shoot .38 S&W, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .357 Maximum. The maximum in a handgun is more powerful than the .44 Magnum, and in a 16 - 20 inch barrel it should outshine the .44 again. It should be pretty close to 30/30 and .35 Remington performance for deer hunting, while still alowing you to hunt small game with .38 wadcutters, and use .357 Mags for self defense. The ammo is available and a few guys have converted Handi-Rifle type single shots. I think a .357 MAX lever gun is the next logical step. The Trapper is already chambered in .44 Magnum and 30/30, so it can handle the pressure, and the action is long enough. What do you guys think?
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If you think the 94 Trapper in .44mag is to much recoil, try some 200 gr .44 Smith and Wesson Specials, I have the same 94 as you and mine love's them, no feeding problems. Only thing I dont like about my 100th Aniversary 94 is that dang safty! It's ugly as all heck
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I hate to rock the boat, but I have to confess that when I read the title of this thread I started laughing. I cannot think of a single tactical application that is not better served by something other than a lever-gun. For CQB, the lever-rifle is severely out-dated by hi-cap semis in various calibers. (insert long lists of tacticool black-rifles here). For intermediate ranges, the ARs, AK derivatives (not a big AK fan here) FALs, HK91 clones etc.. seem to have it all over lever guns for any application I can think of. At longer ranges, I suppose it might be a matter of preference, though, I certainly would favor a bolt-gun over a lever action for anything over 400yds.
Sure, the lever gun was a tactical rifle back in the day. But so was the Sharps. And in my opinion, both have long been outmoded by superior modern designs for tactical or combat applications.
Now, I am an open minded individual. And it's possible that someone who's been shooting lever-guns their entire life might be more proficient and effective with a lever-gun than an AR for certain tactical applications. And, it's also possible that I'm completely missing some value the lever gun provides that a semi-auto combat rifle does not. And I'm willing to learn.
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Keithm,
There is the fact that MANY of us have lever guns and for what ever reasons don't have AR/AK type guns. We would like to use what we have and and are comfortable with to the best of our and it's ability.
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Keithm,
There is the fact that MANY of us have lever guns and for what ever reasons don't have AR/AK type guns. We would like to use what we have and and are comfortable with to the best of our and it's ability.
I've got an AK clone myself, but will point out to KeithM that you can't top up a semi auto between shots without disabling it to one extent or another. Either removeing the magazine entirely or having a stripper clip between the firing pin and the next round. With most lever guns you can just stuff rounds in the side while still able to fire.(I know, Savage model 99, need to open actionand top load, but enen with that as soon as you close the breech you are back in business)
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I've got an AK clone myself, but will point out to KeithM that you can't top up a semi auto between shots without disabling it to one extent or another. Either removeing the magazine entirely or having a stripper clip between the firing pin and the next round. With most lever guns you can just stuff rounds in the side while still able to fire.(I know, Savage model 99, need to open actionand top load, but enen with that as soon as you close the breech you are back in business)
That and I would bet my .454 will get someone's attention real quick ;)
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That and I would bet my .454 will get someone's attention real quick ;)
Even a miss has the effect of a "flash bang" grenade. If that doesn't get their attention shooting won't help as they are already dead, try holy water ;D
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Even a miss has the effect of a "flash bang" grenade. If that doesn't get their attention shooting won't help as they are already dead, try holy water ;D
You don't need Holy water, 360 grains traveling at 2100+fps will make you see God! ;D
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To me, a tactical lever gun is not something I'd run around the streets in black ninja cloths with. Its not Tatical in the sence of kicking in doors. Its tatical to me because is after the gun fight that the real battle begins. I own a few of those so-called "assault rifles" and yes there great firearms. But try to explane to the Anti-Gun Judge, Jury and prosicuter why you needed a 100rd drum or 30 rnd bannana clip to defend yourself or your home. Remember its an "Assault Rifle", "Military Rifle" that only serves to "Kill People" and they'll use some really scarry words to discribe how fast the gun can fire on "FULL-AUTO" and shock 12 jurors in to thinking your the nut! The poor criminal was just breaking into your house because he was hungry and you shot him with an "Assault Rifle" that was banned and can fire 400 rnds per minute!!!! YOUR GUILTY!!!!!
Now turn back to the Tatical lever gun. Just picture what that court room would be like.......its AMERICAS #1 hunting rifle, John Wyane (and American hero) used one, it cant fire 400 rnds per minute, no 100 rnd drum or 30 rnd babanna clips, no evil pistol grip or evil bayonet lug. and the person that broke into your house is a criminal that wanted to cause your family harm and you defended yourself with a "HUNTING RIFLE" or "DEER GUN" the same one your grandfathers use to use.
Chance favors the prepaired mind,
if you win the gun fight and spend the rest of your life in jail..................did you really win?
but this is just my opinion
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To me, a tactical lever gun is not something I'd run around the streets in black ninja cloths with. Its not Tatical in the sence of kicking in doors. Its tatical to me because is after the gun fight that the real battle begins. I own a few of those so-called "assault rifles" and yes there great firearms. But try to explane to the Anti-Gun Judge, Jury and prosicuter why you needed a 100rd drum or 30 rnd bannana clip to defend yourself or your home. Remember its an "Assault Rifle", "Military Rifle" that only serves to "Kill People" and they'll use some really scarry words to discribe how fast the gun can fire on "FULL-AUTO" and shock 12 jurors in to thinking your the nut! The poor criminal was just breaking into your house because he was hungry and you shot him with an "Assault Rifle" that was banned and can fire 400 rnds per minute!!!! YOUR GUILTY!!!!!
Now turn back to the Tatical lever gun. Just picture what that court room would be like.......its AMERICAS #1 hunting rifle, John Wyane (and American hero) used one, it cant fire 400 rnds per minute, no 100 rnd drum or 30 rnd babanna clips, no evil pistol grip or evil bayonet lug. and the person that broke into your house is a criminal that wanted to cause your family harm and you defended yourself with a "HUNTING RIFLE" or "DEER GUN" the same one your grandfathers use to use.
Chance favors the prepaired mind,
if you win the gun fight and spend the rest of your life in jail..................did you really win?
but this is just my opinion
ALL of what you say is true (whether we like it or not) and I agree.
There is also this thing in me (don't know about others) that if I can't 'just pull the trigger for another round' it makes my first shot a LOT more accurate.
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To me, a tactical lever gun is not something I'd run around the streets in black ninja cloths with. Its not Tatical in the sence of kicking in doors. Its tatical to me because is after the gun fight that the real battle begins. I own a few of those so-called "assault rifles" and yes there great firearms. But try to explane to the Anti-Gun Judge, Jury and prosicuter why you needed a 100rd drum or 30 rnd bannana clip to defend yourself or your home. Remember its an "Assault Rifle", "Military Rifle" that only serves to "Kill People" and they'll use some really scarry words to discribe how fast the gun can fire on "FULL-AUTO" and shock 12 jurors in to thinking your the nut! The poor criminal was just breaking into your house because he was hungry and you shot him with an "Assault Rifle" that was banned and can fire 400 rnds per minute!!!! YOUR GUILTY!!!!!
Now turn back to the Tatical lever gun. Just picture what that court room would be like.......its AMERICAS #1 hunting rifle, John Wyane (and American hero) used one, it cant fire 400 rnds per minute, no 100 rnd drum or 30 rnd babanna clips, no evil pistol grip or evil bayonet lug. and the person that broke into your house is a criminal that wanted to cause your family harm and you defended yourself with a "HUNTING RIFLE" or "DEER GUN" the same one your grandfathers use to use.
Chance favors the prepaired mind,
if you win the gun fight and spend the rest of your life in jail..................did you really win?
but this is just my opinion
I don't have a dog in this fight, If I have a home or self defense situation it will be resolved with my .45. My AK is for the range ( At least until after the election ;D )
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I'm going to weigh in on the side of "one never knows." The AR/AK platforms are perfectly viable self-defense weapons (with the caveat of something like the non-penetrating TAPS)...I usually have an AR around loaded with the TAPS.
But when I look at home defense in terms of pure risk assessment, I am looking at 1-3 armed potentials, not a determined squad loaded with battle hardware. I would probably be facing handguns at the worse. My handgun is the immediate response weapon of choice — it's always at arms' length...if I am fighting defensively at bedroom distances, I transition from handgun to 870 Vang Comp loaded with tactical buckshot, with my Sweetie backing me up with a 12 gauge double...I'm pretty sure I can hold the bedroom until the cavalry arrives.
If, however, there appear to be threats scattered about...maybe outside shooting in...I want a rifle. The advantage of a lever gun is that my .44 Trapper delivers a 250-grain Winchester bullet specifically designed for massive expansion in thin-skinned game — that would be us — at about 1500 fps, and it can be delivered with extreme precision, rapid follow-up shots and topped off virtually forever (and I keep a 50-round box of 240-gr JHP Black Hills around for just that purpose). My goal is to guarantee that anyone I shoot stops...right friggin' then! If I have the lever gun, and my Sweetie has the AR, once again I'm pretty sure we can make it through the night. And we've still got the handguns in reserve!
I'm working with Chiappa on the breakdown '92 .44 Magnum because I feel a lot more comfortable when I travel with guns. A lever gun is acceptable virtually everywhere...even places where an AR will, sadly, get me thrown in the slam. If I can get the gun I want, it'll pack as easily as a handgun. If I carry my 3-inch 629 or that 4-inch ultralight 329, I've got a handgun/rifle combo in the same very powerful caliber...as handy as it was in the Old West.
Why might I want to carry a rifle on the road? Because I might need it. I was moved by a friend's story on 9/11...when the flights were grounded, he had to drive across the country to get home to his family...he was armed with a J-frame and 5 rounds of .38+P ammo. "It's a drive," he told me later, "that I'll never make again...sure nothing happened, but that doesn't mean nothing will happen the next time..." I travel a lot, often to the People's Republic of California. A rifle would be...a comfort. Heck, In Kali an RPG would be a comfort! I can conceive of a situation where I might have to make a long drive home through a troubled landscape, and I'd like the firepower.
Also, you can't argue with the legal ramifications of using an "assault weapon" to defend yourself. Brother Ayoob has been very clear that in a shooting situation, you will have to defend your life not once, but twice — the second time in court. I would much rather my attorney hold up "John Wayne's gun" to the jury than "Rambo's gun."
Will I give up my ARs for lever guns? NAAAAAAWWWWWWW! Do I feel comfortable with lever guns for defensive weapons? You betcha!
Michael B
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Well said Michael!
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I gotta agree 100% with you Mr. Bane
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Keithm,
There is the fact that MANY of us have lever guns and for what ever reasons don't have AR/AK type guns. We would like to use what we have and and are comfortable with to the best of our and it's ability.
I sort-of conceded this point in my original "boat-rocking" post. And some of you have talked about the legality of it. And how the plaintiff's or prosecuting attorney will spin the use of an AR. Have you considered that a lever gun with rails containing an appliance store might elicit the same type of legal attack? "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please direct your attention to exhibit A. Exhibit A is a standard model 94 lever action rifle as purchased recently at Wal Mart. Now look at Exhibit B, which was used by the defendant to shoot Mr. Smith three times. Let's list all of the modifications the defendant made to this rifle to make it a more effective killing machine...." Etc... Should we allow this legal threat to cower us into defending our homes with single-shot break-rifles? I tend to (mostly) disregard these legal threats (all due deferences to Mr. Ayoob) and choose the best tool for the job at hand.
My original premise was that for every tactical function I can imagine, a more modern, or better suited tool exists. Many of you brought up home defense, and specifically (I think) .44 mag in a lever gun. But, why not the 12ga? The 20 ga? Me? I'm probably going to be using a handgun, or possibly a 12ga in the house. I can't imagine where a lever-action rifle has any tactical advantage in the home for defense over an 18" 12ga.
Now, I have to concede the point, that if a person has been firing lever guns their whole life, and that's what they're familiar with, it's probably the very best choice for them. I've always said that the best defensive firearm is the one that you shoot best. And if that's a lever-rifle, it's the right choice. I also have to concede that it may be a very good all-around choice for those of us that live in less free states. But barring those two conditions, I can't think of an application where a lever rifle is not outdated by superior designs.
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As I said before, it is what we have. You keep bringing up other weapons, well some of us don't have them.. My 12 gauge has a 26inch barrel. My 30-06 is a 22inch barrel bolt action. So my 18inch lever is my best choise.
OK??
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It really is true that we should not allow spin doctors to limit our right about what weapons we keep or use. Unfortunately I gun fight comes in three parts. The first part is preparation- your weapon(s) of choice, training, detailing and maintenance, etc. There is a lot just to that phase- a prosecutor can take your proud customization of your weapon and turn that into proof of your lunacy. Second is when the shooting starts- you either win that battle or not. Phase three is your arrest and trial. You have to think about, plan, and train for phase 3 just as much as the other parts, because it will be just as critical to your well being.
If your quaint old Puma or Henry lever action warms the cockles of the jury's heart, you might be way better off than if they are shown a weapon that reminds them of the sniper in "The Jerk".
Live to fight another day.
If everything goes to hell, bring those ARs out! There won't be any prosecutors to muddy up your phase 3.
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As I said before, it is what we have. You keep bringing up other weapons, well some of us don't have them.. My 12 gauge has a 26inch barrel. My 30-06 is a 22inch barrel bolt action. So my 18inch lever is my best choise.
OK??
This is a point I've now conceded twice. My initial post in this thread, and then again in my second post in this thread. Though, one might start totaling the cost of the accessories/mods one puts on a lever, and come up with enough to buy a used 870 or Nova, no? But then, you just wind up buying many of those same accessories for the 870. :D
Again, for the third time, if a lever's all you have, or if it's what you're most familiar with it's probably the right choice for you..
Edited to add:
While it might be the right choice for you, I don't think it's the best choice. In an objective comparison, assuming equal availability and familiarity, the lever just doesn't stand up. The only quantifiable reason anyone's come up in this thread for the lever as a tactical/defense rifle is fear of lawyers.
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As far as I can see, If you live in town ANY rifle is a lousy choice for self defense from a legalistic stand point. Due to higher velocity, greater penatration, and much longer range, any prosecutor worth his pay will argue that you were indifferant to the safety of your neighbors due to the danger of over penetration or misses going astray. In that scenario the only advantage of a rifle is the option of "butt stroking" rather than shooting some one. If you live in a more rural setting obviously this does not apply as you are just as likely to be shooting at a critter. In that case the best firearm for the home probably is a rifle, though I would still want to be VERY careful of my back ground. I must say that far to many people talking about "home defense" seem to forget that there is a whole world outside those walls (which will NOT stop most pistol rounds)
Bottom line is learn to do what you have to with what you have, just like concealed carry the one in hand is far more effective than the one in the gun safe.
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Excellent point tom.
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I have stayed silient long enough.........if its a "tactical LEVER action" then why not the lever action shotgun? There is a very tough modern make to trickout to your specs. from Norinco 87W 12g Cowboy Lever Shotgun Walnut Stock 20" barrel
Now the point of blaspheme is............Chance favors the prepaired mind,
if you win the gun fight and spend the rest of your life in jail..................did you really win?
but this is just my opinion
.................I am quoting MB here with a big ol' "Bullshit" man. There is not a harsh enough penalty or sentance the court system or my fellow man could impose upon me to allow harm to befall my family and not do anything within my means to prevent it. N O N E ! The "BIG GUY" Himself would be the only concern at the "scales of justice" and I will state my case and willingly 2X my punishment to spare a hair of my girls.
So in the statementNow turn back to the Tatical lever gun. Just picture what that court room would be like.......its AMERICAS #1 hunting rifle, John Wyane (and American hero) used one, it cant fire 400 rnds per minute, no 100 rnd drum or 30 rnd babanna clips, no evil pistol grip or evil bayonet lug. and the person that broke into your house is a criminal that wanted to cause your family harm and you defended yourself with a "HUNTING RIFLE" or "DEER GUN" the same one your grandfathers use to use.
Chance favors the prepaired mind,
if you win the gun fight and spend the rest of your life in jail..................did you really win?
I win the fight and lose the war..............did I win? YES, if the girls are ok due to my USING a BLACK,EVIL,HATED, F E A R E D rifle! and I will be thanking God for the invention.
NOW THIS IS MY OPINION! YOU CAN HAVE YOURS. But when you have a loved one, family, friend and/or a fricking pet/in-law that you could of saved/helped by using the best tool at hand.......but chose the less scary lever gun. You think jail is the worst possible punishment then? NOT EVEN CLOSE MAN!
This is were I stand.......with my GLOCK/870/AR system. With the "edged" backup system in place for the "J.I.C." with the only future improvement being more training and better cellphones.
tex
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Norinco anything is scarce and overpriced due to rarity. They have not been allowed to import to the US for about 10 years, since they got caught selling Scud missles to N. Korea
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Norinco anything is scarce and overpriced due to rarity. They have not been allowed to import to the US for about 10 years, since they got caught selling Scud missles to N. Korea
still less then the WIN.1887 LEVER SHOTGUN
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I agree with other writers on this thread ... a lever gun can be a great tactical weapon. No, I have not watched one-too-many episodes of "The Rifleman". A lever gun is quick, hard hitting and very unassuming.
While I have a Winchester Trapper in 44 magnum that has the sweetest/slickest action along with a Williams receiver sight (works like a ghost ring), over the last few years, I have been thinking of having Brockman (http://www.brockmansrifles.com) put together a Marlin Guide Gun for me. Ghost ring sight, extended (six round) magazine tube and a large glove-loop lever ... this gun would be capable of dropping anything on this planet.
Sure, it's possible to argue that a 45-70 is a bit much (if there is such a thing) for a "Home-D" or tactical weapon. Probably not all that very ofen that one needs to knock a pick-up truck ass over tea kettle. All the same, a "black" 45-70 lever gun would be so very cool to have!
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See my reasoning about rifles for home defense a couple of posts back, That being said "Cool" is good ;D
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I'm getting the hots for one of the new pump action .38s. I've shot one in .45 and it's way cool. expensive but cool. I'm feelin my economic stimulus money going by by! you can sure go thru a lot of rounds quick.
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Ok, every body calm down :o just shoot what ya got that you shoot good. Home defense is a shotgun. A lever rifle is for fun. Whats "tactical" about a lever gun? Frangible rounds, fleshettes, rubber bullets. thats what you shoot in your house just b4 you pull your 1911 and end the fight. Simple. ;D
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Even Col. Cooper said a hand gun was just used to fight your way to a rifle.
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2How ... I think the argument can be made that any rifle can be "tactical" without painting them black or seeing them on the cover of a Rainbow Six video game. Your point is well stated in that shotguns can be useful for around the house but so can lever guns when the situation requires a little more range.
To this, lever guns can be effective tools in tactical situations where a rifle is needed since they can provide useable firepower with range. Quick to battery, they point well, are reliable and have plenty of knockdown or stopping power. As well, they are very unassuming which could be useful in our litigation crazy society. For these reasons, I would likely grab my Winchester 94 Trapper in 44 magnum before I would grab my M1A Scout or HB Remington 700.
As to tactical lever guns, check out Brockman Rifles (www.brockmansrifles.com) or Wildwest Guns (www.wildwestguns.com). While these two companies make outstanding hunting rifles, they could have sincere tactical applications. As well, and I know that I am pretty twisted … I find something really sexy about a 45-70.
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Well I find most lever actions anemic, and slow to battery. Dont get me wrong I love the asthetics. But as a tactical weapon, sorry very ineffective. Sure a great shootist with one can be effective , but the average person is left. Oh and dont paint me in the black rifle camp, on the contrary, a good AK is mans 2nd best friend. And the point of a hand gun to fight to your rifle HAZ is BS and you know it. Different time and day. Ron j glad to have youre point of view. Believe me I love the levers like I love the revolvers. Just cant use them in a fight .
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Well I find most lever actions anemic, and slow to battery. Dont get me wrong I love the asthetics. But as a tactical weapon, sorry very ineffective. Sure a great shootist with one can be effective , but the average person is left. Oh and dont paint me in the black rifle camp, on the contrary, a good AK is mans 2nd best friend. And the point of a hand gun to fight to your rifle HAZ is BS and you know it. Different time and day. Ron j glad to have youre point of view. Believe me I love the levers like I love the revolvers. Just cant use them in a fight .
Yeah those AKs are tricky. The average person has never held one that alone knows how to load it. Then there is the unfamiliar feel of the gun,,makes it totally useless unless you train with it.....OHHH, wait....those were the arguments you used against the lever gun.
BTW I'll take the Colonel's opinion over yours ever time but that wasn't my point.
Why not try doing as we who do not want AKs or ARs do. Support the people that don't agree with you when it is simply a matter of like/dislike/opinion.
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Why not try doing as we who do not want AKs or ARs do. Support the people that don't agree with you.
Then you should go to your M1 carbine Haz. Its that simple.
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My M1 is not reliable at this time. Too many FTF.
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My M1 is not reliable at this time. Too many FTF.
time to sell it, fix it, or trade it for an AK that works every time. :D Just sayin man.
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HAZ , I'm surprised that you would say that. I support all shooters , just not when it comes to a tactical . And whats this about those who do not agree with AKs and ARs? I will surely
agree with those who have other tactical rifles, if they do the job. I hope I did not give the impression that I don't support those that don't agree with me. Just trying to put my .02 worth. Sorry if I stepped on toes . NOT.
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time to sell it, fix it, or trade it for an AK that works every time. :D Just sayin man.
Fix it. The mags don't sit right. I have talked to my smith, he says it can be made right.
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HAZ , I'm surprised that you would say that. I support all shooters , just not when it comes to a tactical . And whats this about those who do not agree with AKs and ARs? I will surely
agree with those who have other tactical rifles, if they do the job. I hope I did not give the impression that I don't support those that don't agree with me. Just trying to put my .02 worth. Sorry if I stepped on toes . NOT.
I think you stepped on a tail not toes.
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2How,
I may have reacted a bit stongly, sorry.
It just gets my goat when "a man is trying to do with what he has" and others (seem) to tell him it ain't enough.
We HAVE to support each other and if we do, we will all learn to use what we have to better effectiveness.
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HAZ, I agree 100% , I didnt read it as its all I got type of post . I would support any type of self defense with any weapon. If all I had was a Lever , I would be cryin for imput . But too many cheaper shooters for defense out there . Sorry dont see the point.
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HAZ, I agree 100% , I didnt read it as its all I got type of post . I would support any type of self defense with any weapon. If all I had was a Lever , I would be cryin for imput . But too many cheaper shooters for defense out there . Sorry dont see the point.
I see it this way. I can spend for a new gun AND training or I can spend to train on what I have, Sometimes that makes a big difference. And if I can learn to use another gun that I have (many of us have a good semi and a lever) then I am better prepared and maybe I can pass new, good knowledge along.
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I've been following this thread since my initial comments in it. And my position has shifted some. Now I find myself seeing each side of this argument squarely from the middle. To illustrate this, let me boil this down to extremes, and then look at a sliding scale. On the far left of the scale is a single-shot break-barrel 30-06. On the far right of the scale is an NFA registered full-auto BAR.
You can argue that the single-shot rifle is woefully inadequate for home defense or any other tactical application. It's been outdated for a long time. But then you can argue that if it's all you have, it's a damned good idea to be proficient with it. And if it's all you have, then yes, it absolutely beats trying to defend your home/property/whatever with a 9 iron.
Likewise, you can argue that the full auto BAR is WAY overkill, and that it opens too many liability and other legal problems after the fact. But to counter that argument, if you're in a deadly force encounter and you have a BAR, well... you'll probably be the one who's alive at the trial. Judged by twelve versus carried by six and all that.
So where we are, is really a matter of splitting hairs. Many of us believe that due to weapons advances of the past fifty years, the lever gun is way too far to the left on that scale. It seems that many others feel they don't NEED to be quite so darned far to the right of that scale. But the reality is, both positions are correct.
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My M1 is not reliable at this time. Too many FTF.
Plainfield ? They were notoriuos for that, but probably Mags.
Fix it. The mags don't sit right. I have talked to my smith, he says it can be made right.
Darn it Haz, you got me again ;D Bearing in mind what I said earlier about Rifles for home defense, I prefer an AK, when i pull the trigger I KNOW it will go bang, it's short and as handy as an M- 1 carbine, and considerably more powerful. However, if the choice were AR or Win mod 94 .30/30 (common Deer gun around here) I would choose the Winchester, I've got 30 years experience with the M-16 / AR - 15 and would not choose to stake my life on the .223, Any of the lever gun calibers mentioned has better stopping power. But before you 2 get seriuosly p!$$ed at each other read Keiths post, You each have the guns you PREFER to shoot, The best gun for any emergency is the one you are the most skilled with, that would be the one you shoot the most, IN OTHER WORDS, THE ONE YOU PREFER.
If Haz had the best AK in the world and 2How had a .45/70 lever gun neither would be adaquatly armed because you would not be comfortable, familiar, or skilled with that weapon, trade them and it's a differant story, Now it's late, and I need to read the Joke thread before I crash. ;D
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I see it this way. I can spend for a new gun AND training or I can spend to train on what I have, Sometimes that makes a big difference. And if I can learn to use another gun that I have (many of us have a good semi and a lever) then I am better prepared and maybe I can pass new, good knowledge along.
I agree 100% if I had to choose between an expensive or a cheaper gun and had money for training I would do the latter. I guess I see it that most lever guns are too expensive. I would probably buy a cheap semi and get some training. So I guess we agree. ;D
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Works for me, 2How! (http://www.mazeguy.net/happy/highfive.gif)
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I agree 100% if I had to choose between an expensive or a cheaper gun and had money for training I would do the latter. I guess I see it that most lever guns are too expensive. I would probably buy a cheap semi and get some training. So I guess we agree. ;D
"... most lever guns are too expensive."? You can buy a pair of Marlins in 44mag AND 45.70 for less than a Springfield Armory M1A or a S&W MP15T.
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"... most lever guns are too expensive."? You can buy a pair of Marlins in 44mag AND 45.70 for less than a Springfield Armory M1A or a S&W MP15T.
AK's run around the same, but, DON"T GET THEM STARTED AGAIN ;D I will say this about lever guns, No mags to lose or fail .
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AK's run around the same, but, DON"T GET THEM STARTED AGAIN ;D I will say this about lever guns, No mags to lose or fail .
tubular mag failed on my Win. 30-30. when the end cap and spring went flying and that spring was never seen again. Just saying man.
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AK's run around the same, but, DON"T GET THEM STARTED AGAIN ;D I will say this about lever guns, No mags to lose or fail .
Yep ... LOL! You're right Tom!!!
But I can't resist ... ;D
Here's a little test for those of us who own both or have access to both lever guns and semi-autos. Next time at the range or out shooting, set both your semi and lever gun down in the way in which you would store or keep it at your home. Have a friend time you to see which rifle you can get into battery AND hit two targets at say somewhere between 50 and 100 meters the quickest. Whichever gun you find you can get on target with the quickest and most accurately is the one you should probably pick.
That's the practical side of the discussion. Goes to what a lot of the writers on this thread have commented to, what rifle you can accurately shoot is what is important. Secondary is whether or not you think your zip code is going to be invaded and you need the sustained firepower to hold off a platoon strength foe.
Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy my M1A Scout. Just saying lever guns can perform as well today in protecting the home as they did protecting the ranch 100 years ago.
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"... most lever guns are too expensive."? You can buy a pair of Marlins in 44mag AND 45.70 for less than a Springfield Armory M1A or a S&W MP15T.
that is still too expensive when you can buy a Hi- point carbine, or other "cheap carbines for far less. A good SKS is cheaper!
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that is still too expensive when you can buy a Hi- point carbine, or other "cheap carbines for far less. A good SKS is cheaper!
I can't stay out darn it ;D This is strictly about long guns. What exactly do we mean by tactical ? If we're starting the revolution, I want AT LEAST my AK (prefer something belt fed except the M-60) Tract house on a 75 x75 ft lot with neighbors all around shotgun because you want to kill your target only, not include some poor shmuck 2 blocks over. If you live in a more Rural setting, your target is just as likely to be a critter after livestock as a burgalar after your property, I can't speak for your area but we have BEARS in NH, I would settle for soft point 7.62 x 39 in my AK because thats what I have, but when argueing about my dumpster with a 400 to 600 pound bear I would feel better with a 45/70 and they don't make those in semi auto. (Thats probably a good thing ;D )
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Tom you hit the nail on the proverbial head with your last post. Using the right tactic & using the right tool. Just because it is “black” or that 6 billion Chinese have used it doesn’t make it tactical.
And … I like the idea of a semi-auto 45/70! With a 5 round or 10 round magazine, 20" barrel.
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Tom you hit the nail on the proverbial head with your last post. Using the right tactic & using the right tool. Just because it is “black” or that 6 billion Chinese have used it doesn’t make it tactical.
And … I like the idea of a semi-auto 45/70! With a 5 round or 10 round magazine, 20" barrel.
I bet you want the Drum mag for your Saiga shotgun too. You are a glutton for punishment ;D actualy my only objection to that is that the drum costs about the same as the gun.
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I bet you want the Drum mag for your Saiga shotgun too. You are a glutton for punishment ;D actualy my only objection to that is that the drum costs about the same as the gun.
Don't have a Saiga but if I did, I would want the drum!
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Does anyone make a light holder that attaches to the tubular mag? If so, where could I find one?
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Wild West Guns makes light mounts for the levergun
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If you were here in Oklahoma, I would recommend a yard of duct tape!
Before I was "surprised" by my company last year and let go, I was thinking of doing the same. Might want to try Midway and look for the Tac-Star Universal Barrel Mounts. Good luck and let us know how it turned out!
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=121767&t=11082005
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Does anyone make a light holder that attaches to the tubular mag? If so, where could I find one?
I refer you back to the photo of my " TACTICAL 30 " on page one of this thread. It is sporting my Home Depot tubular light mount.
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Dave Biggars of XS Sights had one on his Marlin, but I don't think he's cataloged it yet...doesn't hurt to ask...tell him I sent you...
http://www.xssights.com/
Michael B
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Wow this whole thread is great. I am going to continue reading and get more great ideas. I just wanted to thank everyone.
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OK since this thread took a dump Ill have the last word and say there is no tactical lever action rifle ever built. They are nice and keep the heritage going but they suck in a combat situation which I would call "tactical" . Sorry ,,, Loveim boys but have to pass on save my life vote. ::)
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2HOW. I found this article for you if you read down to like the 3rd or 4th paragraph Sheriff Jim Wilson talks about what he used to use cause back in the day his Riot Shotgun was what he thought was up to snuff.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmoke/0712/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmoke/0712/)
I would go to battle anyday with a lever action.
For everyone else although it is only a paragraph he talks about his lever gun, it is still cool to read about his choice in long gun at the time.
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2how has a point, what is tactical??
Concerned with the middle level of planning and delivery. Tactical concerns are around how to achieve an objective (as developed in the strategy) and providing a framework for the operational delivery, or something developed for a particular objective. EG... Something that can be used in low light, night time, day time, be accurate, hard hitting, capable of multiple shots ( how many? depends on the field of play ), might need to be short, might need to be very accurate, or ok to 200 meters.
Well a lever action could certainly fulfill this role. ;)
XS sights does have a long upper rail, so you can mount a rearward or forward optical sight, or a rifle scope mounted forward with a ANPVS 14 BEHIND for night vision capability. I have not called them yet, but they do have in the catalogue, a tri rail forend that should be coming out about now. Now you can mount lights, bipods, lasers and coffee grinders to your hearts content ;D
There is one advantage to a lever gun, it can be reloaded and kept full on the run without dropping a magazine or opening the bolt. You don't have to carry spare magazines just ammo. A rifle caliber like 30-30, you could carry 200 rounds easy in a pouch on the strong side and keep feeding it all day. The full length winchesters I believe would hold 7 rounds in the tube, of course the pistol calibers can hold 10 rounds of 44 mag, 357 mag or 45 long colt, I found you could get 12, 44 specials, or 38 specials in the tube and with a 16" barrel have close to the same velocity as a magnum out of a 6" pistol. ;) and you could carry 400 rounds of the short stuff.
I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 that I put a Trijicon Reflex sight on, with an ARMS quick release mount, and it is really fast, don't need batteries, works day or night. I will get a XS tri rail for it. As of now it is Tiger striped dura coat and I will have to redo that when the rail is attached. Once I have the rail, then a light system, ( probably a Safariland ) Laser, good single point sling system and bipod will complete the rifle. Sounds funny don't it. ::)
Best tool for the job, maybe not, wrong tool for the job, NO.
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To what m25 stated, let's not get hung up on what defines "tactical".
Lever guns can get into battery quick, can be loaded quickly and have more than enough accuracy, firepower and stopping power for any situation that anyone is likely to face.
Just because they are not painted black doesn’t mean that they can’t be a viable tool for defense.
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And you may feel however you wish about it .It's still a viable thread. And interesting.
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There is one advantage to a lever gun, it can be reloaded and kept full on the run without dropping a magazine or opening the bolt. You don't have to carry spare magazines just ammo.
This "advantage" has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. I have to call BS on this one.
If you are topping off 2 or 3 rounds, a big maybe. It's also pointless if I still have 17 - 27 rounds left in my mag.
Anyone who thinks they can top off their lever gun with 4-5-6 rounds faster than I can change a magazine is either being dishonest or hasn't used an Evil Black Rifle very much. And I don't have to open the bolt.
I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 that I put a Trijicon Reflex sight on, with an ARMS quick release mount, and it is really fast, don't need batteries, works day or night. I will get a XS tri rail for it. As of now it is Tiger striped dura coat and I will have to redo that when the rail is attached. Once I have the rail, then a light system, ( probably a Safariland ) Laser, good single point sling system and bipod will complete the rifle. Sounds funny don't it.
Yes it does. Let me know how that bipod works out for you on a lever gun.
You have taken the advantage of the LA carbine - light weight, slim, quick handling - and want to turn it into something that has lights and lasers and a cheese grater forend on it? My God! Why?
The same could be said for the folks who take their EBRs and turn them into 13 pound anchors with enough shi stuff hanging off of them to qualify for a department store...or the Ninja store...at the mall.
The only thing I like is the reflex sight, and depending on mount height, without a cheek pad you lose your cheek weld on a stock that has any drop at the heel like all lever guns have.
Easily fixed but still has to be addressed. I needed it on my 44mag Marlin, YMMV.
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Well KMitch, I've been using AR's and AK's for 30 years and I say I can top up a lever rifle quicker than you can change mags, and if I cant I can just pull the trigger, shoot you and go back to the topping up that you so rudely interupted, and THATS not being dishonest. ;D
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After carefull consideration it seems that a lever rifle may never run out of ammo if the ammo is in hand (or pocket) simply because there is no mag to replace. also no clips to feed it into the weapon. So as long as you dont run it out you will always have one in battery. A magazine fed rifle even if you dont run it out and do a mag swap will have one in the chamber. So I call it even with enough magazine changes and enough topping off in the lever , its a push.
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Well KMitch, I've been using AR's and AK's for 30 years and I say I can top up a lever rifle quicker than you can change mags
As I said, a couple of rounds maybe. More than that, no. Unless you happen to carry your spare mags in a backpack. ::)
if I cant I can just pull the trigger, shoot you and go back to the topping up that you so rudely interupted, and THATS not being dishonest. ;D
None of my EBRs have a magazine safety. This point is beyond moot.
As 2HOW opined, it's pretty much a push.
There is no distinct advantage - unless you run the gun dry. Then the lever gets passed by technology.
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Actually the Lever rifle ( Carbine to be technical) was The FIRST tactical rifle, a direct ancestor of the AR and AK, and was used as such by several regiments during the Civil war. I believe one regiment was equiped by the Army as an experiment, other regiments were equiped privately. Also a 2008 back issue of American Rifleman (March ? )had an article about Winchester model 94's issued by the US Army during WWI.
Magazine fed, intermediate caliber (compare the ballistics of .30/30 and 7.62X39), carbine. Thats an Assualt Rifle, self loading technology simply had not caught up yet.
Beats the HELL out of a Trapdoor Springfield !
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Let us not forget TR and the Rough Riders and there 1895 Winchesters!!
The Russians also armed themselves with the 1895 Winchester in 7.62x54r.
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Let us not forget TR and the Rough Riders and there 1895 Winchesters!!
The Russians also armed themselves with the 1895 Winchester in 7.62x54r.
Actualy TR himself was the only one with a Winchester 95, The rest of the Rough Riders carried .30/40 Krag rifles.
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According to many sorces, many of the Rough Riders carried 1895 Winchesters in 30-40 Krag. Although I dont believe they were standard issue, standard issue was the Krag and 2nd issue was the trapdoor.
I've heard that they were bought by TR himself, and I've also heard that they were the personal arms of the soldiers.
Either was it's another lever used in battle.
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Winchester 94's were used in WW2. NRA did an article on it a few months back on some were used for "homeland security" or guard work.
Also had heard once that there were Winchester 94's Trappers on some submarines too. My understanding was that they painted them black to be tactical. ;D
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This is a great thread, after reading all the posts and seeing the picks, I now have a desire for a LA! Thanks fellas. :P
I will have to say about the home defense issues though, I don't care what gun it is, better that I can get to it and use it than not.
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MB,
How's the vid on this subject going?
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A dollar's worth of flat black spray paint makes any firearm "tactical". ;D Tack on the name Tactical and you can sell anything.
A handful of .44 Mag LeveRevolution ammo in a Trapper model 94 should take the fight out of anyone. Since I made mine into a half-magazine it's only 6 shots instead of 10. If that and a .45 auto doesn't do the trick, the C-Mag for my AR-15 is already loaded. I also believe a jury will look at an EBR (evil black rifle) and think "machinegun" but America's favorite deer hunting rifles are more innocent looking. It makes a difference when you live in an anti-gun blue state that makes over $3 BILLION a year in hunting and fishing revenue. Chances are 2 of 12 jurors are hunters. They can tell the other 10 what's up.
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Hello, I just had an ich and couldn't scratch it, i.e. I had to add my two cents. I have used the terrible black rifle, owned on for a short time, I have currently a hall way in my house that is about three feet wide. I can not get my Ruger Mk II down the hall way
or my Remington Model 11 12 guage, they are too long. Last year I was going to purchase a Ruger Mini 14, but for some reason
I purchased a Puma 92 in .357 magnum and a Tauras 627 Tracker also in .357 magnum. Two weapons on ammo, the Puma now
weres the large loop, but I found its 20inches also combusome. So off to my dealer and I came home with a Puma 92 in 45 colt and a Ruger Vaqero too. The little carbine is great, perfect size and at a 100 yards I can still hit a pop can. Now I have no intention of trying to acheive 1/2 MOA with this weapon, not what it was inteded for, its light compact came with a saddle ring
and I found a single point slinge at Cableas intended for AR's that works perfectly, keeps the carbine at the ready when I am hunting. Oh and its a hell of a lot lighter then my MkII. Why does everything have to be black and have a ton of add ons to be "cool " Like my RAI (1911) my carbine is a tool, and so far it has worked for me. oh and my wife doesn't have to think hard if she has to use it ie did I seat my magazine or did I charge the weapon, nope rack the lever and doe your buisness, and the cool thing
you can cock it just like the Duke did, well unloaded that is not about to shoot myself
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Dakota,
Tell me more about the sling and post pics if you can.
I have the .454/45 Puma 18 inch.
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Tactical:
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/mik911/TacticalLever3.jpg)
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Tactical:
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/mik911/TacticalLever3.jpg)
WOW WOW WOW!!!
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Here is a pic of the sling, got it from Cabelas works great but chafes my neck a bit
I will try to get a pic of the carbine on here by the weekend
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I like your sling idea, but be very cautious with any sling that can get anywhere near an exposed hammer, or get caught between the lever and the trigger!!!!
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I like your sling idea, but be very cautious with any sling that can get anywhere near an exposed hammer, or get caught between the lever and the trigger!!!!
I understand your caution but the way I have it set up I don't think that will be a problem with the sling getting caught by the hammer or trigger, but overconfidence can be a killer, thank you for the advice. As stated earlier I will have pictures of this set up by Sunday night or Monday morning, its inventory time at work and the last weekend of Cascade Black Tail season here in Oregon so I am swamped