Obama scoffs the Bible

[Solus]

I am just catching up with this post.  My thoughts …

Doubt me too Tab. 

You need to take into consideration that when the founders of our Republic were framing the premise of "freedom of religion" there was not the issues or variety of religions in America that we have today.  Then, it was more to which Christian church versus where today you would frame this as to which religion. 

As to taking the words of the Bible literally; this is something that if more people did, we would have a lot less problems in this world.  Not saying that women must wear hats to worship but that the Old and the New Testament have great lessons for us.

Solus … If I read your posts right, you are making the case for equality for all people regardless of religion.  That’s fine but the fact remains is that our country was founded on Christian values.  Given the majority of Americans believing in God and that our foundation was built of Christian values, if someone doesn’t like the Ten Commandments on the wall of the US Supreme Court or that our currency says “In God We Trust”, I would suggest they find another country to live in. 

Another way to look at this is like taking an “eraser” to our Christian foundation is like trying to use “white-out” on the 2nd Amendment. 

To the original point of this thread, Barack Hussein Obama had belonged to a radical church with a mission statement to follow Black Liberation Theology.  This is a religion (or cult) that was formed around Marxist ideology.  We do need to question BHO beliefs. 

We have heard and disagree with similar arguments that we need to take into account that when the founders drafted the Second Amendment they did not take into account anything by muzzleloading black powder rifles and we often use the example that they didn't imagine radio, television and the internet when drafting the 1st Amendment.

If we wish it maintain that is is the spirit of the Amendment and not the specific situation at the time it was drafted that is the intended Right, then we must also accept that for the increased number of Religious beliefs held by citizens of America.

Pathfinder, you say that we will tolerate their religion, but don't expect us to celebrate it. (As I stated, I do not feel that minority religions have any "right" to have their ceremonies or symbols be accepted either)  That is fine as long as you are willing to grant the followers of other religions the same freedom.  They only have to tolerate Christianity but are not required to celebrate it.

This, of course, means we have Spring Break rather than Easter Vacation or Passover Break. 

Having the Ten Commandments on the wall of the  Supreme Court tends to imply that they are somehow given status as the "Laws of the Land".  My problem with this lies mostly with the first 3 commandments which speak strictly to an individuals relationship with God.  This has no business in any place of official capacity because they specify when and how citizens are required to worship.  They also forbid any false gods, which would include all but the Jewish and Christian God.

The rest of the commandments work pretty well for establishing working "rights" in a free society except for the 7th which has been used to outlaw many non-harmful acts between consenting adults.  While I don't ever condone betraying your spouse or even significant other (lying still applies) we don't need to have any court stick their nose in any bedroom.

So now we are down to 6 Commandments which pretty common rules of behavior. I have thought they could all be combined and expressed in the Golden Rule...Treat everyone as you, yourself, would be treated.  However, that was before I became aware of Masochists who, it appears, don't want to be treated anything like I want to be...

The solution to not officially favoring one religion over another is to simply not mention religion or deity in official government business.  This is not to deny Christianity, but to treat all religion equally. 

Of course, then it will be said that the Atheist has won.


 

[PegLeg45]

In this great country.."of the people, by the people, and for the people"......shouldn't the 'majority' still rule?

[sanjuancb]

Someone has a fundamental misunderstanding of what a democracy is. Demos Kratos, "Let the People Rule" means that there is a majority rule with minority rights. What is the majority religion of the United States? If you are Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, hell Zoastrian, I don't care--you are free to live here, but don't think that you can impinge on the rule of the Christian majority under their God.

[tombogan03884]

We have heard and disagree with similar arguments that we need to take into account that when the founders drafted the Second Amendment they did not take into account anything by muzzleloading black powder rifles and we often use the example that they didn't imagine radio, television and the internet when drafting the 1st Amendment.

If we wish it maintain that is is the spirit of the Amendment and not the specific situation at the time it was drafted that is the intended Right, then we must also accept that for the increased number of Religious beliefs held by citizens of America.

Pathfinder, you say that we will tolerate their religion, but don't expect us to celebrate it. (As I stated, I do not feel that minority religions have any "right" to have their ceremonies or symbols be accepted either)  That is fine as long as you are willing to grant the followers of other religions the same freedom.  They only have to tolerate Christianity but are not required to celebrate it.

This, of course, means we have Spring Break rather than Easter Vacation or Passover Break. 

Having the Ten Commandments on the wall of the  Supreme Court tends to imply that they are somehow given status as the "Laws of the Land".  My problem with this lies mostly with the first 3 commandments which speak strictly to an individuals relationship with God.  This has no business in any place of official capacity because they specify when and how citizens are required to worship.  They also forbid any false gods, which would include all but the Jewish and Christian God.

The rest of the commandments work pretty well for establishing working "rights" in a free society except for the 7th which has been used to outlaw many non-harmful acts between consenting adults.  While I don't ever condone betraying your spouse or even significant other (lying still applies) we don't need to have any court stick their nose in any bedroom.

So now we are down to 6 Commandments which pretty common rules of behavior. I have thought they could all be combined and expressed in the Golden Rule...Treat everyone as you, yourself, would be treated.  However, that was before I became aware of Masochists who, it appears, don't want to be treated anything like I want to be...

The solution to not officially favoring one religion over another is to simply not mention religion or deity in official government business.  This is not to deny Christianity, but to treat all religion equally. 

Of course, then it will be said that the Atheist has won.

You need to go back and read your 1st Amendment  "Congress shall make no laws [concerning] religion"
Could not remember the exact word used, but the point is the same, you do NOT have freedom of religion, you DO have freedom from Govt iterference with your religion, unless you are a Christian, like the majority of Americans.

[Solus]

In this great country.."of the people, by the people, and for the people"......shouldn't the 'majority' still rule?

No.  It take more than a simple majority ti amend the Constitution.

The only way they should is by an Amendment to the to the Constitution they wish it change. That is not a simple majority vote.

A majority religion cannot have their religion names the state religion until they muster enough of a majority to have the 1st Amendment amended.

[Sponsor]

[Solus]

You need to go back and read your 1st Amendment  "Congress shall make no laws [concerning] religion"
Could not remember the exact word used, but the point is the same, you do NOT have freedom of religion, you DO have freedom from Govt iterference with your religion, unless you are a Christian, like the majority of Americans.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

and

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion. Originally, the First Amendment only applied to the federal government. Subsequently, under the incorporation doctrine, certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in such a manner as to restrict the promotion of religion by state governments


Before this discussion continues, if it does, let me try to clarify my position.  I am not attacking Christianity or any other religion or religious position.  I am saying that under our Constitution all religions should be treated equally (as long as the followers of that religion do violate the rights of others by following it's tenets). 

No religion should have a favored relation with government institutions even if it is the majority religion. 

One of the strengths of our country is that the rights of no majority group have precedence of any minority group.

I do agree that ban Christian prayer, customs or symbols in government institutions but to allow the same display to a minority religion is hypocrisy.

It is not that I think Christian prayer should be banned from public schools, for instance, but to allow it would necessitate allowing prayer from all religions in public schools to maintain equality.  The logistics involved make this impractical.

I see only two solutions that might maintain equality.  One would be to establish the percentage of the population that practice each religion and no religion.  Then divvy up the school days according to that percentage.  So on a certain number of days, the children would be lead in a Christian prayer, another number a Jewish prayer, a Satanist prayer, bow to Mecca on some days and on some days have no prayer.

Or we simply don't have any religious reference or prayer.  But then it could be said that the Atheist get all the days.

Myself, I think the last solution to be the most workable.

As an aside, Moses, who received the Ten  Commandments wasn't Christian.

[Ron J]

Solus,

As you stated, the purpose of the 1st Amendment is to ensure that you are not prosecuted by the government for religious beliefs.  Can the government “acknowledge” (not saying as you do, to “accept”) various beliefs (i.e.; Christmas)?  Yes.  Just as long as they don’t persecute for any belief in the sense of valuing one religion over another.

The government is not implying or suggesting “preference” that you should be a Christian or whatever because the 10 Commandments are on the wall of a building.  Simply stating where the bases of our laws are carried over from.  Look at it as “art” instead of being about you. 

Now, if you have a “problem” with the fact that we were founded as a country on Christian beliefs and values (such as what the 10 Commandments state) or that the majority of America believes in “God” … sorry.  We were founded on Christian beliefs so subsequently we have Christian beliefs in our framework.  Unless you can prove Einstein’s theory of time travel, I would suggest it would be easier to move to another country than to try to rewrite history or change that framework to fit a minority’s beliefs or values. 

Moses was not a Christian?!?  Really?  Hmmm … I wonder why? 

[tombogan03884]

Solus,

As you stated, the purpose of the 1st Amendment is to ensure that you are not prosecuted by the government for religious beliefs.  Can the government “acknowledge” (not saying as you do, to “accept”) various beliefs (i.e.; Christmas)?  Yes.  Just as long as they don’t persecute for any belief in the sense of valuing one religion over another.

The government is not implying or suggesting “preference” that you should be a Christian or whatever because the 10 Commandments are on the wall of a building.  Simply stating where the bases of our laws are carried over from.  Look at it as “art” instead of being about you. 

Now, if you have a “problem” with the fact that we were founded as a country on Christian beliefs and values (such as what the 10 Commandments state) or that the majority of America believes in “God” … sorry.  We were founded on Christian beliefs so subsequently we have Christian beliefs in our framework.  Unless you can prove Einstein’s theory of time travel, I would suggest it would be easier to move to another country than to try to rewrite history or change that framework to fit a minority’s beliefs or values. 

Moses was not a Christian?!?  Really?  Hmmm … I wonder why? 

To early in history, He and his followers were not even Jews as we know that religion, but were rather the Founding practitioners of what would become Judaism.
  To Solus and others who have a problem with the Christian dominance in America, first let me state that I AM NOT a practicing Christian, however America was founded and made great by Christian European settlers. No other Race / religion has EVER achieved and maintained the level of advancement reached by this Nation. Major Chistian holidays in America have been hijacked so totally by toy and candy sales that Christ is forgotten, if you can not stand to be nice to people for the month of Dec. just shut up, you can get really drunk on New Years eve and go back to being a pr!ck for the next 11 months, if you are not a Christian, shut up and be glad you have a day off with pay.

[Solus]

  To Solus and others who have a problem with the Christian dominance in America, first let me state that I AM NOT a practicing Christian, however America was founded and made great by Christian European settlers. No other Race / religion has EVER achieved and maintained the level of advancement reached by this Nation. Major Chistian holidays in America have been hijacked so totally by toy and candy sales that Christ is forgotten, if you can not stand to be nice to people for the month of Dec. just shut up, you can get really drunk on New Years eve and go back to being a pr!ck for the next 11 months, if you are not a Christian, shut up and be glad you have a day off with pay.

Tom,

Calling me a prick, insinuating that I can't be nice for a month and telling me to get drunk and to shut up a few times are not actions that tend to inspire me to respect your views.

At least you had the courtesy to disassociate yourself with Christians.

No where in my posts have I ever even mentioned the role Christians have played in the settling and founding of America, so I do wonder where that came from?

If you, perhaps, mean that I am suggesting that Christians should not receive special treatment for the accomplishments of our founders, you are correct.  Neither should we receive punishment for their faults and mis-steps.

I also wonder at your use of the term Christian dominance.  I wonder if the Founding Fathers would be proud that Christians dominate other citizens.

You also seem to imply that non-Christians might not be able to be nice or have the values needed for greatness.  I hope you know this is not true.

My reference to the 10 Commandments was to show that, as Founding Values of America, they were not only Christian.

I would be interested in the values and attributes that made our country great that are uniquely Christian.

I admit that I have little detail knowledge of the race/religious/national make up of American settlers of any time period.

I tend to look at the value of the individual and not associate their positive or negative achievements with any groups in which they may be  included.

[Pathfinder]

Tom,

Calling me a 
If you, perhaps, mean that I am suggesting that Christians should not receive special treatment for the accomplishments of our founders, you are correct.  Neither should we receive punishment for their faults and mis-steps.

I also wonder at your use of the term Christian dominance.  I wonder if the Founding Fathers would be proud that Christians dominate other citizens.

You also seem to imply that non-Christians might not be able to be nice or have the values needed for greatness.  I hope you know this is not true.

My reference to the 10 Commandments was to show that, as Founding Values of America, they were not only Christian.

I would be interested in the values and attributes that made our country great that are uniquely Christian.

I admit that I have little detail knowledge of the race/religious/national make up of American settlers of any time period.

I tend to look at the value of the individual and not associate their positive or negative achievements with any groups in which they may be  included.

Solus, you from California? Or Europe? You took what Tom was saying, made it personal, and as a result totally blew what he was trying to say.

And you got your facts wrong, another California/Europe thing to do. Right now, in this US, Christianity is under relentless assault by one-worlders, atheists, wiccans and other religions. It is hardly a case where "that Christians dominate other citizens." Those who attack the Christian institutions fail to recognize the second part of the 1st Amendment on religion - "or prohibit the free expression thereof". Thus, kids can be taught nature worship in school (wicca) or Kwanzaa (a socialist screed more than a religion) or forced to adopt muslim names, but crosses around one person's neck are forbidden.

Rather than rise to the bait you have thrown out, and since facts can be taken out of context, ignored, or endlessly debated, I personally think it is time to end this "debate". It is clear you have no real interest in understanding what is and has been going on  this country, only to mindlessly pound your point - over and over and over again, adding little or nothing new. Kinda reminds us of Tab, no???

So, solus, enjoy yourself wherever you live, secure in your own warped sense of self-righteousness. Just be decent and leave the rest of us the hell alone to be and do as we believe is right.