The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Pathfinder on May 12, 2008, 07:09:31 PM
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Check here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350248,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350248,00.html)
If it is true, or if this is true:
"Ron Paul has no chance of winning the Republican presidential nomination this year, but he continues to head toward the party’s National Convention with an ardent group of supporters and a second-phase strategy aimed at raising the profile of his libertarian-leaning issues."
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/12/ron-paul-strategy-heads-to-convention-showdown/ (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/12/ron-paul-strategy-heads-to-convention-showdown/)
We have got to use these events and efforts by lame duck candidates and whatever comes up to help Mr. McCain remember the he needs us more than we need him. Hitlery will try anything and everything, but she will so polarize this country as Pres that we can contain her somewhat. It will take years to undo what she can accomplish. B Hussein Obambi (or b-ho as MB calls him) will be far worse and it would take decades to undo the damage - if we even can.
So, MB, and anyone else who can use this, please use these events to remind Mr. McCain that there is a large part of this country's voting public who still value traditional American values, and he should not even think of assuming he has our votes because of the opponents at this time.
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I guess you are saying we should support Congressman Barr (who I admire) in an effort to get McCain's attention? If I'm reading that right....I just don't know if that will do it...the man, McCain, has sons at risk in the military, so I know his heart is in the right place on many issues...but he is just wrongheaded on others (our border, 2nd Ammendment, and election reform) and I'm afraid resistant to logic for failure to self-acknowledge wrong thinking or, worse yet, to accomplish a personal goal. I wonder that the RINO Republicans will ever take us seriously, unless we ditch their candidate and allow the unthinkable. Why are the RINO's in power...from where draws their strengh?
I think both sides, Dem & RINO Rep, are leading down the same path (am I wrong?). It's just one gets us there faster than the other. I think I'd rather clean up this mess on my watch as opposed to leaving if for my children.
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I guess you are saying we should support Congressman Barr (who I admire) in an effort to get McCain's attention? If I'm reading that right....I just don't know if that will do it...the man, McCain, has sons at risk in the military, so I know his heart is in the right place on many issues...but he is just wrongheaded on others (our border, 2nd Ammendment, and election reform) and I'm afraid resistant to logic for failure to self-acknowledge wrong thinking or, worse yet, to accomplish a personal goal. I wonder that the RINO Republicans will ever take us seriously, unless we ditch their candidate and allow the unthinkable. Why are the RINO's in power...from where draws their strengh?
I think both sides, Dem & RINO Rep, are leading down the same path (am I wrong?). It's just one gets us there faster than the other. I think I'd rather clean up this mess on my watch as opposed to leaving if for my children.
Sounds like you are putting ALL your chips on the table Rastus,
A "GOOD guy" or one of the" BAD guys" no "not AS bad guy"
I'm not Really aware of Bob Barr, other than He's pro 2A and a "conservitive"He has to be better than McC.
Best case, He wins big, with Rep, Senate and Congress, We Win
next, He wins Pres but with Hostile Congress and Senate, Draw
Dems win Pres. with Republican Congress and senate, again a draw
Worst case Dems win BIG ???????????????
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I guess you are saying we should support Congressman Barr (who I admire) in an effort to get McCain's attention? If I'm reading that right....
Not quite, Rastus. All you say of McCain is true, although you downplay the damage he has personally done to this country through McCain-Feingold and others actions. His willingness to work with others, especially Dimocrats of the Kennedy and Schumer ilk, his so-called "maverick" streak, creates awful compromises for us.
What I am saying is that 3rd party candidates usually don't stand even a snowball's chance in Hell of winning, and McCain knows this, although a 3rd party candidate like Barr or Paul will hurt him directly, not Hitlery or Obambi, probably enough to cost him the election. This is what we have to use to help McCain understand where there is a large vote-power block that will support him in return for his public, on the record assurances that we will not lose more 2A rights to gummint law or bureaucratic regulations.
Dare we even hope that he would use his leadership to actually advance gun ownership and 2A rights? I for one ain't holding my breath, but it would be nice if he did.
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I think both sides, Dem & RINO Rep, are leading down the same path (am I wrong?). It's just one gets us there faster than the other. I think I'd rather clean up this mess on my watch as opposed to leaving if for my children.
You're right, Rastus and I will NOT vote for McCain.
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I did downplay the harm McCain did to keep some people on board here from leaving this thread before they picked up some education....but I did say it was wrongheaded and he's thick as a brick and probably only interested in himself and that's as nice as I can be to him. Also..b-ho get's on a ticket as prez and I suspect that McCain will be elected even if he loses 5-10% of the vote (and that would be good for the RINO's to see).
All my chips on the table...yeah, I guess so. This is not the country I grew up in to the extent it was when I was a child. It's becoming more European and more socialist in nature and I hate that. I hate that we are becoming a nation of victims by the inexonerable march of politics to describe a situation that creates victim loyalty to derive a vote that becomes power in the hands of a few. When I was a child no one thought a mother would kill their own unborn child just to advance their career...or have thought someone with a Muslim background had a snowball's chance in hell of being elected to dogcatcher, much less the President of the United State of America.
They can say diversity is our strength but I say that is a lie. Stength comes from unity, not diversity. The Dems have played the race card and supported freaks and perverts (queers, feminazi's, Nancy Pelosi's former election staff supporter just convicted of child porn, etc.) to do whatever it takes to get noticed and to get elected and now the RINO's are selling us out in hopes of getting a Hispanic vote they won't be able to hold on to unless they open up the government purses even more. These practices will, undoubtably, lead to the demise of the U.S.A. Selfish greed is our undoing.
In either case, the outlook is grim. The end is the same, it's the timing that's different if any of the three top candidates make it to the top. Maybe McCain will be overthrown at the convention, maybe we will close our borders, maybe we turn back the invading hordes, maybe we will restore the family in this nation......maybe...but not by us by God's hand only. Name a mixed race civiliation that survived without Christianity being it's guiding principle? This great experiment is running out of gas because we've abandoned our Source.....
What's the last thing all great societies have embraced before becoming a footnote in history....homsexuality....a great sin that transcends to an abomination. I wish out VP had the balls to be a man and, though he may love his daughter, break fellowship with her....but no, he's right there in support for her. Even our #2 can't stand up to it.
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What 3rd parties represent is idealism. This election year, the presumptive nominees are both sitting left of center for their respective parties. From this there will be more interest in 3rd parties than ever before.
Unfortunately this is where “idealism” and “realism” have a violent collision.
Third party candidates have never been able to capture the popular votes or more importantly, the electoral votes needed. Best 3rd party effort since Teddy Roosevelt was that of Ross Perot in 1992. He had almost 19% of the popular vote but zero electoral votes. Zero. What this means for this election year is that as good intentioned as a 3rd party vote may be, it will only serve to help get Obama elected as President of the United States.
You may like folks like Ron Paul and Bob Barr and you may not like McCain. But the reality of this is simple enough for me to understand. For this presidential election, voting for any 3rd party candidate boils down to as being “idealistic” and will result in having Obama elected president …and possibly someone like Michael Bloomberg as our vice president. Don’t know about you, but when I say “President Barak Hussein Obama” I get a little throw up in the back of my throat.
This election may be the most dramatic example of electing the worse of two evils. But if you think that McCain represents an “awful compromise” … what will the reality of President Obama be? Please think of what a 3rd party vote really means.
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What 3rd parties represent is idealism. This election year, the presumptive nominees are both sitting left of center for their respective parties. From this there will be more interest in 3rd parties than ever before.
Unfortunately this is where “idealism” and “realism” have a violent collision.
This election may be the most dramatic example of electing the worse of two evils. But if you think that McCain represents an “awful compromise” … what will the reality of President Obama be? Please think of what a 3rd party vote really means.
If McCain is elected I believe it will result in the following:
1) The Republican party will believe that going left works, and that they should do it more and more often
2) a) Based on McCain-Feingold (denial of free speech, particularly for pro-life and pro-2nd amendment), McCain-Kennedy (illegal alien amnesty), and McCain-Lieberman (anti-capitalism government rationing of energy), there is little that a Democrat controlled Congress would pass that McCain would find objectionable enough to veto
b) Anything that a Democrat Congress passed and worked the Democrats would take credit for, anything that failed or was unpopular the Democrats would blame on "the Republicans", e.g. No Child Left Behind (which was also terrible legislation)
4) If you think that McCain would actually nominate a judge that would overturn any of his signature legislation, you need stronger coffee
3) Obama and/or Clinton come back in 2012, and you still get to enjoy the pain, after 4 years of McCain
If Obama is elected president I believe it will result in the following:
1) The most corrupt (who is Tony Rezko?) and incompetent (has anyone seriously looked at his position on any economic or foreign policy) presidency since at least Carter (dust off the misery index).
2) $8 gasoline (which has doubled in the 2 years since the Democrats took over Congress), double digit inflation, interest rates, and unemployment
3) Disasterous foriegn policy with both Muslim nations and China/Korea. Picture the U.S. as Great Britain (at best).
In short, the worst of both the Carter and Clinton administrations, on steroids.
But I will NOT vote for McCain. I will vote Libertarian or whatever, because if the nation is going to have to suffer another Cater to get some semblance of another Ronald Reagan, I say do it NOW. Generation X may not have been taught history in school, but they will learn it the hard way, and it might as well be sooner than later.
And if it is bad enough, and the reaction strong enough, impeachment might actually happen. (Strange to talk about impeaching a candidate before he is even elected to office, but if the Dems can do it, I can dream too).
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If McCain is elected I believe it will result in the following:
1) The Republican party will believe that going left works, and that they should do it more and more often
2) a) Based on McCain-Feingold (denial of free speech, particularly for pro-life and pro-2nd amendment), McCain-Kennedy (illegal alien amnesty), and McCain-Lieberman (anti-capitalism government rationing of energy), there is little that a Democrat controlled Congress would pass that McCain would find objectionable enough to veto
b) Anything that a Democrat Congress passed and worked the Democrats would take credit for, anything that failed or was unpopular the Democrats would blame on "the Republicans", e.g. No Child Left Behind (which was also terrible legislation)
4) If you think that McCain would actually nominate a judge that would overturn any of his signature legislation, you need stronger coffee
3) Obama and/or Clinton come back in 2012, and you still get to enjoy the pain, after 4 years of McCain
If Obama is elected president I believe it will result in the following:
1) The most corrupt (who is Tony Rezko?) and incompetent (has anyone seriously looked at his position on any economic or foreign policy) presidency since at least Carter (dust off the misery index).
2) $8 gasoline (which has doubled in the 2 years since the Democrats took over Congress), double digit inflation, interest rates, and unemployment
3) Disasterous foriegn policy with both Muslim nations and China/Korea. Picture the U.S. as Great Britain (at best).
In short, the worst of both the Carter and Clinton administrations, on steroids.
But I will NOT vote for McCain. I will vote Libertarian or whatever, because if the nation is going to have to suffer another Cater to get some semblance of another Ronald Reagan, I say do it NOW. Generation X may not have been taught history in school, but they will learn it the hard way, and it might as well be sooner than later.
And if it is bad enough, and the reaction strong enough, impeachment might actually happen. (Strange to talk about impeaching a candidate before he is even elected to office, but if the Dems can do it, I can dream too).
Well stated!
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What I am saying is that 3rd party candidates usually don't stand even a snowball's chance in Hell of winning, and McCain knows this,
For what it is worth Abraham Lincoln was a third party candidate in the 1860 election. The party he led was called the Republican Party.
Best regards,
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gemurdock
"But I will NOT vote for McCain. I will vote Libertarian or whatever, because if the nation is going to have to suffer another Cater to get some semblance of another Ronald Reagan, I say do it NOW. Generation X may not have been taught history in school, but they will learn it the hard way, and it might as well be sooner than later."
Actually, I happen to drink really strong coffee ("it's the gourmet expensive...").
And I still miss the logic here. If I understand you right, your rationale sounds like a really bad case of “Catholic guilt” rather then a solid reason as to why we should elect a president. We need to “suffer another Carter”, which could be eight years this time, because we need to teach the Republican party a “lesson”?
How much of a “lesson” are you willing to take if Obama gets elected? Fubar economics? Trash the 2nd Amendment? Forget about national security? You think McCain would appoint liberal judges? Who do you think bro’O would appoint?!? Like you said, the “worst of Carter and Clinton” and this is going to be a good “lesson” for the United States in what way? Because from this we will see the need to what ... clone Reagan by 2012?
I don’t much like McCain either. But he has a better chance to win than anything else we can field against Obama. With all due respect, the idea of teaching conservative values by defaulting in an election is too dangerous. Our primary objective should be to do whatever we can to keep Obama from being the President of the United States. Voting for a 3rd party candidate that has a chance of winning is one thing (and when we clone Reagon we will be sure to bring Abe & Teddy back). But throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate that has NO CHANCE is not the lesson we need or can afford.
All this being said, if you want to roll the bones on teaching a society a lesson via an election that's your right. However, while you are dreaming I am going to try mainlining coffee beans.
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I agree with Rastus and Gemurdock,I will not settle for the lesser of 2 evils . The lesson learned if B - Ho or the hilly beast get elected will be wether or not Americans still have spine enough to throw out an unAmerican Government like we did in 1776.
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And I still miss the logic here. If I understand you right, your rationale sounds like a really bad case of “Catholic guilt” rather then a solid reason as to why we should elect a president. We need to “suffer another Carter”, which could be eight years this time, because we need to teach the Republican party a “lesson”?
How much of a “lesson” are you willing to take if Obama gets elected? Fubar economics? Trash the 2nd Amendment? Forget about national security? You think McCain would appoint liberal judges? Who do you think bro’O would appoint?!? Like you said, the “worst of Carter and Clinton” and this is going to be a good “lesson” for the United States in what way? Because from this we will see the need to what ... clone Reagan by 2012?
I don’t much like McCain either. But he has a better chance to win than anything else we can field against Obama. With all due respect, the idea of teaching conservative values by defaulting in an election is too dangerous. Our primary objective should be to do whatever we can to keep Obama from being the President of the United States. Voting for a 3rd party candidate that has a chance of winning is one thing (and when we clone Reagon we will be sure to bring Abe & Teddy back). But throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate that has NO CHANCE is not the lesson we need or can afford.
All this being said, if you want to roll the bones on teaching a society a lesson via an election that's your right. However, while you are dreaming I am going to try mainlining coffee beans.
I for one do not consider GW Bush a "success". He would have signed a new AWB, and so would McCain. Fubar economics are coming, regardless of who is elected, and "Cap and Trade" will simply throw gasoline on the fire.
Unfortunately, I guess I ultimately expect that, as Jefferson said "the tree off Liberty will need to be watered", and I vote for the new Boston Tea Party. Not a clone of Reagan, or Jefferson, or Washington, but someone who holds the same principles and "ideals". They are time tested truths, and only require an appropriate time and leader to remind the people.
I guess that's what makes America a (almost) free country....for now...
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When Lincoln was elected we didn't have T.V., Radio, The Internet, Mega Billionaire candidate backing and the extent of crooked politics we have now. We didn't even have Superman. And when we finally got a Superman, he got shot. I didn't think you could kill him with a bullet. Damn ???
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Gemurdock, will have to disagree with you to the differences in economic plans of McCain vs. Obama. Fiscally speaking, McCain and Obama are night vs. day. More to what you said in your post comparing it to be something like Carter on ‘roids. You are right about $8 gas. Unless we can increase global supply or substantially reduce our demand it will happen regardless of who the next president is.
As well, you Rastus, Haz and Tom’s stand on principle and not voting for the "lesser of two evils" is admirable and while I disagree, I sincerely respect you for it.
All the same, IF there is NOT a viable 3rd party candidate … and by viable, I mean one that can get elected … voting for your principle and for a non-electable 3rd party candidate is giving the election to Obama. You can vote for a “tea party” but you know that is not going to happen. You can vote for your principle but in the end all you are doing is helping Barak Hussein Obama become the next president of the United States.
The realilty is that it is about the lesser of two evils. Giving it to the one that is the most evil is not a great learning experience.
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We never will have a 'viable' third party candidate if people automatically say 'he can't get elected'.
Do you want to vote for the 'winner' or do you want to vote what is best for the country? We have tried the lesser for way too many years now and all it has accomplished is turning the RNC into "Dem lite". If you wish to tell them that you're fine with that then by alll means vote for McCain. I will vote for a conservative (or be an undercount in the Pres race).
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I agree with RonJ. It is sad to see people vote for a third party when all that will do is give us the worst of the evils. Like it or not the third party in this race is a spoiler only.
I prefer to think that McCain is the best of the viable candidates still in the race. McCain is clearly the better of the choices for the 2A, the economy, defense and taxes. B-ho and Hil have said they will raise our taxes! You want to pay more so the gummint can take away your guns? What are you thinking?
I am sure Barr is a good man. But I hope he decides not to run.
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“We never will have a 'viable' third party candidate if people automatically say 'he can't get elected'.”
Haz, you are absolutely dead right. Center x-ring hit correct!
No one is automatically disqualifying candidates because they are 3rd party. The problem is that the 3rd party candidates have already disqualified themselves! Not one has captured enough interest from the American public to be a viable candidate. This means that not one of the 3rd party candidates will capture enough of the popular or electoral vote to win.
To this, I would LOVE to vote for someone other than McCain! But in doing such in this election with these candidates would mean that my vote is going to in effect help Barak Hussein Obama win. We can’t let this happen. In this election and with the candidates that are available, only one has a chance at beating Obama and that’ McCain.
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RonJ,
Right. I agree.
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Anyone who votes for Barr, will help elect Obama. Obama has been very clear on his 2nd Amendment position. He says nobody should have a gun. Nobody!
You vote on "principle," but in doing so, our nation goes evermore closer to Marxist socialism.
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I personally think McCain takes the republican base for granted, just today on Fox news he said his green agenda will tick off alot of Republicans, talkiing that way isn't going to get that base to the polls for him in November, and Nebraska had it's primary today, I voted for Ron Paul....
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"........You vote on "principle," but in doing so, our nation goes evermore closer to Marxist socialism. "
Exactly my point in voting for McCain...with McCain we just get there a bit later and but we still leave a mess for our children or grandchildren or great-grandchildren to try to clean up.
As we slowly become desensitized to the "outrages" in life, the shock value that cause's one to act or to change is lost. The longer we wait to act the more likely it is that there will be no action at all. The slow death of a nation always results....in the death of a nation.
I guess we differ in that you think we can continue down this path. History teaches otherwise.
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Exactly my point in voting for McCain...with McCain we just get there a bit later and but we still leave a mess for our children or grandchildren or great-grandchildren to try to clean up.
As we slowly become desensitized to the "outrages" in life, the shock value that cause's one to act or to change is lost. The longer we wait to act the more likely it is that there will be no action at all. The slow death of a nation always results....in the death of a nation.I guess we differ in that you think we can continue down this path. History teaches otherwise.
AWWW c'mon Rastus. The water is just nice and warm, nothing to worry about. Just lay back and relax. /s
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Although I doubt it, maybe McCain could convince Barr to vice president, and We could have an under seer to McCains actions. I watched Bob Barr on the floor and He was a devout 2nd A supporter, He went toe to toe with all the bills put out in the clinton administration.
2nd) I believe the 3rd or 4th party system could work, if We did it like run off elections in Texas. If no candidate, regardless of party, gets 50% or more of ( in this case the electoral college ) the vote, the lowest candidate drops out and We vote again, until We have a Winner with more than 50% of the vote. I know that could be a hassle, but hell it's worth it. Don't get a new prez until May or June, OK by me.
How many of you would vote for a 3rd party, if it was done this way, and you knew you were not throwing away your vote? The other party's would then know, that in the 1st election they were not the clear winner and MAYBE the party would take notice. I think take us or leave us politics would end.
Now a rant, I may have brought this question up before but here go's.
In 1994 if I remember right, some new republican congressman thought up a bill called the A to Z bill, very simply, when a bill comes up for a vote, the senate and the congress votes on each section of the bill, 1 item at a time. Attach all the pork you want, but each item stands on it's own merit. No more pork barrel attachments skating along for the ride. Line item veto by our representatives.
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I'm going to vote my BELEIFS and Damn the consequences. Maybe James Earl Ray had some useful ideas.
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I'm going to vote my BELEIFS and Damn the consequences. Maybe James Earl Ray had some useful ideas.
Ah, yes. Forget the 7% solution, let's consider the .308 solution. It is something no one here wants, because it will be terrible in its own way, but how long can it be postponed?
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The "Fourth Box".
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Pathfinder's original post says it best:
We have got to use these events and efforts by lame duck candidates and whatever comes up to help Mr. McCain remember the he needs us more than we need him.
B Hussein Obambi (or b-ho as MB calls him) will be far worse and it would take decades to undo the damage - if we even can.
While McCain has been surrounding himself with conservatives, he still may not be as conservative as I would like. He has “moments” when he understands what side of the aisle he should be standing on and other “moments” that make us wonder if it's aisle or isle. We can only hope that he, like other Presidents have done, will listen to his advisors.
However, this election is not about if you want John McCain for President. This election is not just about you voting for your conscious or beliefs either. While there is due respect for you to stand and vote your mind, this election has a lot more on the table than you voting your mind.
This election is about whether YOU want Barack Hussein Obama as the President of the United States or not. The reality is simple. Do you want Obama President? If you say “YES”, then vote for B-HO or for a 3rd party candidate of your "belief". Very simple. Don’t vote McCain and you will have Barack Hussein Obama as your President. If you say “NO” to having Barack Hussein Muhammed Obama (that I understand is his full legal name) then vote for McCain.
Once again, at this time there is no 3rd party candidate that will capture enough of the popular vote or electoral vote to win. When you vote for the 3rd party candidate you are voting for Barack Hussein Obama because it’s one less vote for McCain.
Sorry. That is the reality of your vote this election year. However, if you think your mind or belief is right and that it means more than the future of this country, I guess it's your right ... for now.
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Sorry Ron,
The reality is we have a choice. Continue down a failed path to bigger gov't and less freedom or send a message that we will NOT support that model no matter who pushes it or how long it takes to completely destroy this country.
Here is some reality;
Free health care - ISN'T
Illegal immigration is just that - ILLEGAL
Rights are not granted by the government.
The government is not the solution - it's the problem.
Not voting for McCain is just that - not voting for McCain. It has NOTHING to do with his opponent.
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Haz,
It’s your right and prerogative to vote as you feel … even if your vote will get Barack Hussein Muhammed Obama elected as our President. You’re right. It’s your choice.
Tell me Haz, when President and Mrs. Obama are dancing at their inaugural in January, will you have any cognitive dissonance with your “choice”?
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Ron, in 1776 our forefathers were faced with a similar choice, bad or worse, and if We the people have Any HONOR and courage left it is our Duty, in recognition of the benifits THEIR sactafice gained for us to continue their Revolution, and guard closely the rights they ENUMERATED for us. To take the "Easy path, because the RIGHT path is dangerous and difficult is lazy, dishonorable and cowardly
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Nope.
BTW my vote will not get him or Hillary elected. The people that vote for them will.
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Tom:
First, please understand that I enjoy your on-line company in this forum and certainly do not want to insult or disparage you. I simply disagree.
But let me see if I understand you. You think we should make the “path” more difficult by choosing someone who will be the most extreme case of the worst of two evils? You think that stopping McCain … who at this time is the only viable candidate that can beat Obama … and thus allowing Obama to win … will help the rights that our founding fathers fought for? I disagree. Obama is so much more a threat to our freedoms and way of life than McCain will ever be. We may not like McCain but we know we can’t have Obama.
Put it another way, do you think that if Madison or Jefferson were here today that they would say, “Hell ya’ Tommy! Let’s make this a lot more difficult than it has to be and elect that Obami chap!”?? I think the path they would take … as we should … is one of common sense and that is grabbing a clothes pin and voting for McCain because it means stopping Obama.
This election is not so much as to whom you want but more to what you can live with or what you don’t want. With no viable 3rd party. No revolution in the forecast. Better chance of lightning or flying monkeys than the Jimmy Ray solution … and then you are stuck with his VP or Lord help us, Ms. Pelosi. It leaves us with two choices. Obama or McCain. For me, I don’t like McCain but I really don’t want to see Obama as President.
Haz,
To say the people that voted for him got him elected is only half of the equation to this process. To that other half, if you would rather have Obama than McCain, it’s your call.
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RonJ,
I'm with you. You have it right.
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This country is strong enough to withstand 4 years of BHO or HRC. The Republic will not crumble.
Yes, there will be consequences that we will have to fight (SCOTUS appointments for one) but we need to make a stand. The powers that be need to get a shock, so like the old saying goes ..."If not now, when?"
And one last time, there is no "other half of the equation". My vote goes to whom a vote FOR, not to whom I do not. "You bought vanilla ice cream? You must want chocolate to be discontinued!" BS, I bought vanilla because that is what I want, chocolate was not part of the decision other than I did not want it.
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Haz,
Can the Republic handle Bro’O? Sure.
But wouldn’t we the people have less stress and decay with McCain than Obama? Why put up with Obama if you don’t have to? We know that McCain is a RINO. But we also know that Obama is a Marxist asshole that will without a single doubt work with a democratic senate and house to bend your 2nd Amendment rights over. What degree of hell do you want?
Haz, letting Obama get elected because we have some perverse idea that this will serve as an “object lesson” to the Republic is like playing “Russian Roulette” to show someone that it is a bad form of gun safety.
Your ice cream analogy is not on the mark either. Products get discontinued when their sales fall under par. Same with candidates and elections. Candidates that don’t make the sell or get the votes get discontinued too.
Back to the question. You want one or two scoops of Obama?
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Ron,
You're right that unsold products get discontinued. We (conservatives) have no voice in the Libs products but we do have a voice in our products. If we continue to buy shoddy goods then don't expect the company to improve them.
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Haz,
For the most part, I agree with you 100%. We do have a voice in the candidates and if we don't like them, we need to speak out.
But I disagree with the premise that if we don’t like McCain 100%, then we vote for some 3rd party candidate that doesn’t have a prayer in winning or check “box four” as Jesse Venture suggested and vote for none of the above. Either of these scenarios, no matter how noble they are intended will get Obama elected. Whether it is four years or eight, it's going to be some rough road for American with Obama as our president.
We have a say in the “product” or candidate from our parties and we don’t have to except a “shoddy product” or candidate. But what happens in four to eight years when the next conservative “savior” that we have been painfully waiting for gets hit by an ice cream truck? What if we (again) have a candidate that we can’t agree 100% with? We need to wait another four to eight years to get the “product” or candidate we can agree 100% with?
In principle, I agree with you. But in practice and for this election, we need to stop Obama and what he represents NOW. We can’t let his Marxist agenda gain any momentum. We have to work with what we have because it is for the greater good that Obama is not our next president.
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Tom:
First, please understand that I enjoy your on-line company in this forum and certainly do not want to insult or disparage you. I simply disagree.
But let me see if I understand you. You think we should make the path more difficult by choosing someone who will be the most extreme case of the worst of two evils? You think that stopping McCain
who at this time is the only viable candidate that can beat Obama
and thus allowing Obama to win
will help the rights that our founding fathers fought for? I disagree. Obama is so much more a threat to our freedoms and way of life than McCain will ever be. We may not like McCain but we know we cant have Obama.
Put it another way, do you think that if Madison or Jefferson were here today that they would say, Hell ya Tommy! Lets make this a lot more difficult than it has to be and elect that Obami chap!?? I think the path they would take
as we should
is one of common sense and that is grabbing a clothes pin and voting for McCain because it means stopping Obama.
This election is not so much as to whom you want but more to what you can live with or what you dont want. With no viable 3rd party. No revolution in the forecast. Better chance of lightning or flying monkeys than the Jimmy Ray solution
and then you are stuck with his VP or Lord help us, Ms. Pelosi. It leaves us with two choices. Obama or McCain. For me, I dont like McCain but I really dont want to see Obama as President.
Haz,
To say the people that voted for him got him elected is only half of the equation to this process. To that other half, if you would rather have Obama than McCain, its your call.
The whole purpose of "the net" and this sight is the free exchange of ideas,so no offense is taken. (If you have some good sarcastic comments I will probably steal them for later use ;D )
My reasoning is that the US is going through an identity crisis, some of us want to remain true to the beleifs of the Founding Fathers, Self relience, minimal Govt interference with the individual, etc. Some think the country should become a socialist dreamland where the Govt. manages every thing you do or think from cradle to grave. Eventualy we will need to draw a line and say "No more". Considering the way the liberal education system perverts history and brainwashes students, and the MSM lies, and twists the truth to advance their socialist agenda, it is my opinion that the sooner we bring the debate to a head the better our chances of restoring things like common sense, and personal responsibility.
I will point out that in the early days of the Heller case BOTH SIDES were advised not to pursue it to the Supreme Court, because there was to much at risk. Well, they DID pursue it and it's looking like we may get a win.
The sooner we settle the question of "is this America, or Europe 2.0" the sooner we can move onto solving BIG real problems like Energy dependence, and decaying infra structure.
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Tom!
I agree with you, Haz and others a 100%. Our country must get back on track. I have had enough of the fiscal and moral decay too.
To this, it is my contention is that we will face far more harm with Barack Hussein Muhammed Obama as president than any possible harm that McCain (or even … Lord help me … Hillary!) could stir up.
In other words, B-Ho is a danger where McCain is really just an annoyance. Everybody has different levels of when they have been “annoyed” enough and then they become righteously pissed off. Despite having lived in AZ for almost six years, I haven't reached it with McCain ... yet. All the same, better to be annoyed with McCain four years than in danger with Obama for four or maybe eight years. As well, we can't negate the possible momentum the left agenda will gain should we allow their foot in the door.
We need to say "NO" to B-HO!
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Ron, I don't know the reasoning used by Haz, or anyone else here, but mine is that I'm SICK TO DEATH of watching the creeping intrusion of Socialism, A little bit here, a little bit there. There has been no SINGLE major political upheavel in my life time, but this is not the same country I was born and raised in. I remember a country where if you wanted something you worked and saved for it, If you were getting assistance, you did not have color TV, or other "luxury" items because you were spending your money to pay bills,and buy food if you did not work you were either a Housewife (if a woman) or a bum and probably a drunk (if a man). Men could do business without lawyers because a mans word had VALUE, Schools taught children HOW to read, write, do math and apply those skills to think criticaly and acheive their own solutions. It was a land that operated on the principle that "You get out of it, what you put into it ". That Country is gone, replaced by a Frankensteininan monster where everyone has to be "Empowered"there are no poor people, or ne'er do wells, they are "Underprivaleged", or "Underacheivers" competion has become a BAD WORD, and schools now teach WHAT to think. Todays new Motto would make JFK puke, Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, instead what your country can do for you. It is time to "fish or cut bait" how do Americans want that quote remembered.
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Ron, I don't know the reasoning used by Haz, or anyone else here, but mine is that I'm SICK TO DEATH of watching the creeping intrusion of Socialism, A little bit here, a little bit there. There has been no SINGLE major political upheaval in my life time, but this is not the same country I was born and raised in.The core principals are still intact. I remember a country where if you wanted something you worked and saved for it, If you were getting assistance, you did not have color TV, or other "luxury" items because you were spending your money to pay bills, and buy food if you did not work you were either a Housewife (if a woman) or a bum and probably a drunk (if a man). Men could do business without lawyers because a mans word had VALUE, Schools taught children HOW to read, write, do math and apply those skills to think critically and achieve their own solutions.Schools and teachers shouldn't replace the parents, it is your duty as a parent to talk to your children. Let them know what is your view of the world is and don't hesitate to treat them as a grownups while arguing your case. Respect of your children have to be earned It was a land that operated on the principle that "You get out of it, what you put into it ". That Country is gone No it is not, and I am the living proof of it, replaced by a Frankensteininan monster where everyone has to be "Empowered” there are no poor people, or ne'er do wells, they are "Underprivileged", or "Underachievers" completion has become a BAD WORD, and schools now teach WHAT to think.Don't believe everything you've being told by MSM or other media. It's very hard to handle ever-increasing information flaw, but this is the current reality Today’s new Motto would make JFK puke, Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, instead what your country can do for you.I don't think it is true for the majority of our fellow citizens It is time to "fish or cut bait" how do Americans want that quote remembered. Time is not just now, always let your voce heard, local elections is always the best opportunity for that.
Tom, see my comments in-line. The last one is for everybody and not addressed to you directly.
Just think how lucky we are to be here, with all the problems and current dificulties this is still the best country on the face of the earth, period.
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I stand shoulder to shoulder with Haz. Hell, I'll stand in front and take the incoming fire. I was directed to this tread after posting on the Olberman thread which I will repeat below:
]Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I know the reality of the gas prices. I just like throwing that out there to twist a knife in a common goosestepping lib. I said it here tongue n cheek. As for the Bob Barr thread I have not yet read it, but if it is what I think it is, that is what I was refering to (if that makes any sense at all). McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite. The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm. I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual). Trust me. If McCain is elected and he steps out on the Global warming plank he and Newt are so fond of, when it turns out bad for the country, where is that blame going to land? A perfect example is the recent dustup about Bush and his remarks before the Knesset. The media was more than happy to be a sounding board for Barry and his minions as they whine about foreign soil and politics without a peep of Nancy P. et. al. as they go abroad to slander the President. This country, as great as it is, has some enormous problems. If they are not solved, we will be the next Britain. A hundred years ago, they had a great empire. Now they are just an island with no guns, afraid to stand up to the extremist Muslims in their own country. IMHO the real political debate in the country was between the Republicans and the Libertarians. The Republicans have remove themselves from the debate leaving only the Libertarians (Bob Barr). I say this knowing full well that Mr. Barr is a recent convert to the path of light which is a whole other discussion.
All this being said, I understand the reality of the situation. A third party vote cound elect a senator with no idea what is going on. You pick the senator. Just remember, Heros bleed. No action taken in defense of ideals whether physical (thank you ladies and gentlemen of the armed forces) or mental is without negative consequences.
I now relenquish my soapbox to the floor. I have to go read a Bob Barr thread.
It doesn't quite fit like a glove, but you probably need a new hand. The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above. I will put this in plain english. McCain is Obama plus some frills. He is stronger on government reigning in spending: a plus. He wants to see how high he can stack terrorist bodies: a plus. Other than these two pluses and his wife, where is the upside? McCain/Feingold, McCain/Kennedy, et. al. Where are the priciples that spawned these legislative abortions? If you ask me, it is the media inspired "bipartisanship". Cross the isle and make friends. What if across that isle is a leftist snakepit? You still gonna cross? McCain did. Some one earlier in this thread mentioned (paraphrased) a slow death is still a death. Ten ring! When the handgrenade w/ a bad haircut (Perot) ran I was firmly in Ron J's camp, but then I looked back. Bush Sr. was slightly left of Regan (check his judges). Teddy is light years left of his brother (check the taxes). Nice slow death. Above I wrote then later emphasised here that the true American political philosophic debate is between the Republicans and the Libertarians: The role of the federal government. The Republicans have quit this debate. The majority now act as the Federal government is there to solve peoples' problems. This is the party of Regan! After the hurricanes that crossed here in Florida in 2004 (pre Katrina for those not into dates in history) people were upset that ice and food weren't readily supplied by government. (I haven't read the Consititution in a while, but I don't think that is in there.) Then we had Katrina and the media went nuts. President Bush instead of taking a stand and saying it is not the role of the Federal government went about to "fix" it. This is just a microcosim. The country is dying slowly. How close does death have to be before you take a stand? Is McCain to the right or wrong, I mean, left of Bush? Is a win with a little bit lesser of two evils really a win in the long view? What would it take for you to stand Ron J?
The American Revolution was spawned by less that a third of the populace in the colonies. I think we all are glad that they stood to be counted.
With that, my fingers are tired and its Saturday. I think I will go work out another finger a little bit.
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OK, so like when I started this thread, I was hoping that MB or others of his ilk could use this potential of competition to the Manchurian Candidate to leverage something - anything - from him in the way of public assurances for 2A support. You know, the trigger issue, the topic that matters above all else? Yeah, I know politician's assurances are worth every penny you pay for them, but at least it is something.
I have watched with quite some amazement the direction of the thread - it was unintended but telling. Lots more discussion tan I originally would have guessed, and in very interesting and wonderful directions. Here's my take, literally just after watching "toons" with my girlfriend's 2-year old granddaughter.
The war is damn near over - the soft war, that is, for the great American experiment. And this just in - we - you and I - have lost. After watching blatant politically slanted cartoons aimed at pre-schoolers, like Dora the Explorer or Handy Manny, I am convinced that the jury is back, the verdict just ain't been read yet. You and I and everyone on this site does not control this country. The government does, and we will do what it says. We have been sold out - with our eyes wide open - to the a-rabs with oil, big businesses that need cheap (read Mexican) labor, and the commie Chinese, all with the willing connivance of the educational system (that is an ugly word for the people we hand our kids over to) and most of the media. Period. There is no more room for discussion, there will be no more substantive discussion because quite bluntly no one in power gives a flying rip what you or I think or even what we do. Pay no attention the man behind the curtain, because he doesn't count anymore either.
What I have become convinced of over the past couple years is that the time to act was years ago, and here we are in 2008 arguing about having to act someday in the future and arguing about who will get us there faster. There is no impetus for anyone to act now, sheeple are too comfy, too fat dumb and/or happy (or like Animal House, fat, drunk and stupid) to care or get behind anyone who would mount a credible defense of the American Way.
Besides, it really does not matter what you do or who we vote for. The MC will sell us out as fast as Obambi or Hitlery - the fix is in, Kennedy's assassination proved that. If you doubt this, you might ask yourself why else all American presidents since Kennedy have allowed egregiously anti-American and unconstitutional laws to be passed with their signatures and blessings. McCain Feingold comes to mind, as does the Gun Control Act of 68, et al.
You might also want to take a hard look at The MC's so-called "green" agenda he announced the other day - makes Kyoto look like it was in our favor. Screw the American economy while the Chinese get free rein to pollute their little hearts out.
So, for me, vote for whomever you wish, it will not matter a tinker's damn. It is now the beginning of the hard times, so I would suggest hunkering down, stockpile necessities, follow Dave Ramsey's advice to live like no one else so you can live like no one else, and keep your powder dry.
And pray.
>:(
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Brosometal! Good read and while I agree on much of what you said, I must disagree on a couple of points.
“McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite. “
Not even close. Sure, McCain who has done and will likely continue to do some things we don’t like but he is NO WHERE near what Obama is OR what Obama represents. Here are my top three issues (not in any order) when I compare B-HO to McCain.
1) Fiscal Policy – Obama is a Marxist and is going to raise taxes and redistribute income. Think Jimmy Carter. McCain is going to support tax cuts and limit spending. Hopefully, he will continue to take advice from his new conservative council that is advising him.
2) Domestic Policy – Obama is pro-choice. McCain is pro-life. As to the 2nd Amendment, Obama’s record is very clear. He will with the help of a Democratic controlled House and Senate trash … no matter what the outcome of Heller is … your RKBA. McCain will not.
3) Foreign Policy – Obama has no clue (so we think) on how to deal with the Islamic threat. Radical Islam has been building a body count for centuries. Barack Hussein Obama wants to pull our troops back and talk with terrorists. McCain wants to kill them. This may be the one issue that is the deal breaker for McCain.
Sit down and pull your research on Obama and everything he as said, done or associated with over his short political career. He is completely night and day to McCain … and down right scary.
“The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm. I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual). "
Why would you want to deal with the immediate threat that Obama brings? Why not work to elect more conservatives? Why give the ultra left any momentum? There is too much at stake to assume there is an object lesson needed! Four to eight years of someone WORSE than Carter is going to teach conservative values how? All it is going to do is make us dig deeper … spend more money and cost more lives to dig out of the hole we put ourselves in by letting Obama get elected. This, as I said earlier is like trying to show someone proper gun safety by playing Russian Roulette. Another way to look at it is that I really don’t need to get spanked by someone with a leather corset and wearing a dog collar to feel like I got screwed.
“The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above.”
Any vote that does not go to McCain is not going to help McCain defeat Barack Hussein Obama. Reality is that at this time, there are no other candidates that are viable … meaning that they do not have the traction to win the popular AND electoral vote. By voting for one of these other candidates who don’t have a chance in hell of winning, your vote is not going to McCain and thus is not going to help McCain win. In what amounts as a two-horse race, if you are not helping McCain win, who are you helping to win?
“What would it take for you to stand Ron J?”
A few less beers than I have had today! :P
My stand is ANYONE BUT B-HO! If we can find a candidate that can get the traction, has conservative values and can beat Obama that is NOT John McCain, I am there. But in this election … this is not going to happen. We may not like everything that McCain has said or done BUT we don’t want to bend over for Bro’O either.
Anyone but Obama is critical in this election. Not being overly dramatic here but Barack Hussein Obama presents a clear danger to the United States of America. He will put this country in an economic tailspin like no other we have ever seen. He will trash our rights. He will make us less safe in the war on terror. And I think his wife is a complete bitch.
Maybe the stand I will take in 2012 is to run for president!?! My platform …
Fiscal policy … We run the government like a for profit business and we will make a profit. Countries that don’t play fair with us will not benefit from us either. I want to be the first president to tell another country to f..k off on national television.
Immigration … Employers hiring illegal aliens (BTW, calling them undocumented workers pisses me off and if I could make it a crime to use that phrase I would) will result in a substantial “holy shit” penalty. Our borders will be closed. Like any container, our country’s infrastructure can only support so many people. We will get back to you when we can accept applications. Would also caution Canada and Mexico about our liberal use of land mines.
Domestic Policy…. English is our language. Speak it or leave. Women have a right to choose. With this right comes responsibilities such as if you choose to kill your baby, you will serve time in prison for manslaughter. Your shit for brains boyfriend, husband or one-night-stand will be castrated. I would repeal any and all restrictions to firearms. With this, you commit a crime with a weapon you will be deep fried. Would also make parents responsible so that if the shit for brains fruit of their loins does some bonehead crime, they will be punished as well. Need better parents and it’s time they man or woman-up and take responsibility for the gig they enjoyed making.
International Policy … I will put an end to this Islamo bullshit. You want to buy some bikes and send folks down the street in black pants and white shirts to share your beliefs, that’s just fine. But you step out of your sandbox to force your belief on the United States of America and we will incinerate you. To this, IF any country tries to or succeeds in killing an American citizen, you will face the full wrath and force of my vengeance … and I will not be denied justice. I will not take a single lick of shit from any country when it comes to our safety or interests. Iran, Syria and Venezuela you will play nice in the world and with your neighbors or I will destroy you.
OK, what was that about too much beer? :P
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Brosometal! Good read and while I agree on much of what you said, I must disagree on a couple of points.
“McCain has one or two things that make him palatable, other than that he is Obama/Hillary lite. “
Not even close. Sure, McCain who has done and will likely continue to do some things we don’t like but he is NO WHERE near what Obama is OR what Obama represents. Here are my top three issues (not in any order) when I compare B-HO to McCain.
1) Fiscal Policy – Obama is a Marxist and is going to raise taxes and redistribute income. Think Jimmy Carter. McCain is going to support tax cuts and limit spending. Hopefully, he will continue to take advice from his new conservative council that is advising him.
2) Domestic Policy – Obama is pro-choice. McCain is pro-life. As to the 2nd Amendment, Obama’s record is very clear. He will with the help of a Democratic controlled House and Senate trash … no matter what the outcome of Heller is … your RKBA. McCain will not.
3) Foreign Policy – Obama has no clue (so we think) on how to deal with the Islamic threat. Radical Islam has been building a body count for centuries. Barack Hussein Obama wants to pull our troops back and talk with terrorists. McCain wants to kill them. This may be the one issue that is the deal breaker for McCain.
Sit down and pull your research on Obama and everything he as said, done or associated with over his short political career. He is completely night and day to McCain … and down right scary.
“The next four to eight years I am expecting a S@#% Storm. I would much rather have the Leftists be left to blame, not a person that could be labeled a conservative (notice labeled not actual). "
Why would you want to deal with the immediate threat that Obama brings? Why not work to elect more conservatives? Why give the ultra left any momentum? There is too much at stake to assume there is an object lesson needed! Four to eight years of someone WORSE than Carter is going to teach conservative values how? All it is going to do is make us dig deeper … spend more money and cost more lives to dig out of the hole we put ourselves in by letting Obama get elected. This, as I said earlier is like trying to show someone proper gun safety by playing Russian Roulette. Another way to look at it is that I really don’t need to get spanked by someone with a leather corset and wearing a dog collar to feel like I got screwed.
“The idea of A or B if not A you helped B is silly and my words would mirror Haz's above.”
Any vote that does not go to McCain is not going to help McCain defeat Barack Hussein Obama. Reality is that at this time, there are no other candidates that are viable … meaning that they do not have the traction to win the popular AND electoral vote. By voting for one of these other candidates who don’t have a chance in hell of winning, your vote is not going to McCain and thus is not going to help McCain win. In what amounts as a two-horse race, if you are not helping McCain win, who are you helping to win?
“What would it take for you to stand Ron J?”
A few less beers than I have had today! :P
My stand is ANYONE BUT B-HO! If we can find a candidate that can get the traction, has conservative values and can beat Obama that is NOT John McCain, I am there. But in this election … this is not going to happen. We may not like everything that McCain has said or done BUT we don’t want to bend over for Bro’O either.
Anyone but Obama is critical in this election. Not being overly dramatic here but Barack Hussein Obama presents a clear danger to the United States of America. He will put this country in an economic tailspin like no other we have ever seen. He will trash our rights. He will make us less safe in the war on terror. And I think his wife is a complete bitch.
Maybe the stand I will take in 2012 is to run for president!?! My platform …
Fiscal policy … We run the government like a for profit business and we will make a profit. Countries that don’t play fair with us will not benefit from us either. I want to be the first president to tell another country to f..k off on national television.
Immigration … Employers hiring illegal aliens (BTW, calling them undocumented workers pisses me off and if I could make it a crime to use that phrase I would) will result in a substantial “holy shit” penalty. Our borders will be closed. Like any container, our country’s infrastructure can only support so many people. We will get back to you when we can accept applications. Would also caution Canada and Mexico about our liberal use of land mines.
Domestic Policy…. English is our language. Speak it or leave. Women have a right to choose. With this right comes responsibilities such as if you choose to kill your baby, you will serve time in prison for manslaughter. Your shit for brains boyfriend, husband or one-night-stand will be castrated. I would repeal any and all restrictions to firearms. With this, you commit a crime with a weapon you will be deep fried. Would also make parents responsible so that if the shit for brains fruit of their loins does some bonehead crime, they will be punished as well. Need better parents and it’s time they man or woman-up and take responsibility for the gig they enjoyed making.
International Policy … I will put an end to this Islamo bullshit. You want to buy some bikes and send folks down the street in black pants and white shirts to share your beliefs, that’s just fine. But you step out of your sandbox to force your belief on the United States of America and we will incinerate you. To this, IF any country tries to or succeeds in killing an American citizen, you will face the full wrath and force of my vengeance … and I will not be denied justice. I will not take a single lick of shit from any country when it comes to our safety or interests. Iran, Syria and Venezuela you will play nice in the world and with your neighbors or I will destroy you.
OK, what was that about too much beer? :P
Whoa! If you run, you have my vote. If you are ever in Gainesville, FL, email me and I will buy you a beer (possibly two).
First, As screwed up as the US is right now, when you get down to brass tacks, Mr. Obama is unelectable. He cannot pull the troops out like he thinks he can. He was rebuffed in the liberal media when asked about the capital gains tax and government income. He is unable to think on the fly without making grevious errors. He is an elitist that cannot handle critisism. He is unable to garner more that 50% of the democratic vote. As is evident in the recent West Virginia vote even some democrats are unwilling to vote for him. On the outside chance that he is elected, IMHO it would be J Carter part 2: 4 and out. The country is an aircraft carrier. It will take miles to turn. Obama won't swing it 180, he'll just swing it further to the left than its current drift.
Second, J McCain IMHO will be elected along with an all democrat house and senate whether or not I or others on this form vote for him. I believe actions speak louder than words (sometimes louder than bombs). J McCain, while OK on fiscal issues, voted against Bush's tax cuts (twice, I believe) and is willing to cross the isle to "get something done" (see the above all dem congress), however he promises to make permanent what he is on the record for being against. Say I am a doubting Thomas, but I will believe it when I see it.
Third, After McCain's assumed (hold the assume jokes please) Mr. Obama can still run for Pres. and will have more political clout than a two-year-into-the-first-term senator. He will have been sesoned for another run at the Pres. and you will still have the Republican party thinking they don't really need a conservative base coilition. Then what will you have? I shudder to think.
It took a Carter to get a Reagan. Ron J, we are on the same side we are just at odds as to what we should paint the wall.
Pathfinder, man what a downer on a Saturday. I tend to agree but choose to see it as half full. Don't let the cartoons get you down. A child raised in a conservative family will see them for what they are: silly entertainment drawings that move. Society in general is Leftist-feel-good bovine excriment. Why? Because it is easier and takes no real thought. Katrina's detritus brought Louisiana Bobby Gendal. People in that state will soon see a different road and the contrast will be stark. With the talk of "watering the tree of Liberty" a part of me believes this may be the case, but I take it to a personal level. No, I am not out whackin' leftist (although the idea has promise) when I hear someone in my peer group lean left I engage them in friendly conversation, usually with leading questions. The left is hard to defend logically and a few well placed questions (recently about the FAIR TAX) will either get them thinking or make them out to be the jack-donkey their ideas hint they are. Some will listen silently. A few will be vocal. Most all will have a seed planted. Brother, fight the good fight. If you are knocked down 10 times get up 11 (thanks Cool Hand Luke) and remember to stock up on essientals for when the poop hits the fan.
Back to Ron J, I saved the explitives in my post to make up for anyone who was upset with the beer fueled wirdy dords in yours. The offer stands (or sits as the case may be), beers on me.
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Back to Ron J, I saved the explitives in my post to make up for anyone who was upset with the beer fueled wirdy dords in yours. The offer stands (or sits as the case may be), beers on me.
My friend, it would be my honor to buy you a beer ... or twelve!!
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On a differant thread some one posted a quote, " If there must be trouble let it be now so that my children may have peace."
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I have always believed you stand up for what you believe in. This is what this country was founded on, this is what our men and women in the armed forces are doing every day, and this is what I am going to do come November.
If Obama gets elected because I voted for someone else that I believed in, then so be it. I do believe that if he does get elected because some of us voted for someone beside he or McCain, it might be a good thing. The reason I say this, IMHO, that if MC gets elected, as many of you have said, he will go along with many of the liberal ideas from the left side. If Obama gets elected, I beleve that everybody on the right side, and many on the left side of the isle, will fight him tooth and nail.
Let's not forget, the house and senate are the ones who make the rules. The president can suggest something, but it's the congress who will ultimately decide. I would be willing to bet, that if either of the democratic canidates get elected, that in two years they will be in the same boat as Bush is today. That is he can't get anythng done.
I still believe in this country and the people in it, and believe that if we don't let up pushing our conservative values, we will again have a government that serves the people and not one that has its own agenda.
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Even if McCain's elected, if Congress gets a larger Democratic Majority, The magic number of 60 in the Senate, The Congress, who as jerry posted, will override every veto, and whatever socialistic, Euro, Un-American, laws San Fran Nan Pelosi or Harry Reid, and Hillary and Barack (who go back to their Senate seats anyway), those laws will pass! :o
Than in 2012, it all happens again.
To quote Charlie Brown; " Good Grief"...
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I have always believed you stand up for what you believe in. This is what this country was founded on, this is what our men and women in the armed forces are doing every day, and this is what I am going to do come November.
Amen, brother, amen!
Let's not forget, the house and senate are the ones who make the rules. The president can suggest something, but it's the congress who will ultimately decide. I would be willing to bet, that if either of the democratic canidates get elected, that in two years they will be in the same boat as Bush is today. That is he can't get anythng done.
Unfortunately, the Pres has been able to get away with all manner of illegal actions in the form of:
- Executive Actions - remember FDR's EO "interning" the Japanese at the start of WWII? Yes, it was eventually overturned in the courts but years later and look at the damage that was done. What would have happened if FDR had friendly courts on his side?. Japanese Americans were lucky in that the courts were on edge already with FDR after shooting down the National Recovery Act, among others.
- Stacking the courts with revisionist judges (Ginsburg on the SCOTUS who likes to quote foreign law in deciding American cases), made easier with democratic majorities in Congress; and
- stuffing the bureaucracy with like-minded people who will continue to wreak havoc on the American people long after the Pres is gone. Consider the greenies and gun-grabbers in the Interior Dept. that MB has run into, the State Dept. people who have undermined Bush's initiatives, and can you even begin to imagine the what the BATFE will do with rules changes when the gloves come off under gun-grabber Obambi?
Freshman democratic Congressmen, like the 3 elected recently in so-called "safe" republican districts, will not be allowed to interfere with Pelosi and her minions, nor will they have the political base to do much. Especially as they are conservative democrats - until they want something done in their district. Then watch the values drop as they maneuver for Federal pork.
What scares me most, and is part of what has made me so "downer" this weekend, is that Obambi is so vicious and hateful of this country that he will use all of the above methods - and more like FEMA's "empowerment" to suspend the Constitution - to ensure that we are never allowed to go back - without another revolution. And I just don't see that happening.
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The other day in the grocery store (buying more beer), I saw a little girl and a little boy ... obviously big brother and little sister ... having a dispute. Little sister was getting worked up a bit. Her slightly older big brother seemed to be enjoying it.
Then little sister took a quick glance to her right which resulted in her big bro' following with a look to see what was going on. Little girl wound up and kicked this kid so hard in the shins he doubled over and hit the deck. Really thought this girl was going to go in and finish him off but instead she went running to her mommy at the end of the aisle.
My first thought, glad it was a shoe to the shin and not a 200gr. HP to the head.
Same with McCain and Obama. Like the shoe to shin is going to be less painful than a shot to the noggin with a 45, McCain is going to be a lot less painful than Obama. As well, it looked like the little girl got off with a clean assault with no harm … no foul. However, unlike McCain and Obama, there will be a definitive harm that it will last a lot longer than the sting from a kick in the shins.
By all means, take a stand for what you believe in. But like other clichés see where that gets you when your taxes go up, our country is less safe and your RKBA has been seriously damaged. What you are likely to do when you stand your ground this November is continue to fragment the conservative efforts and give an ultra left movement some serious momentum.
My point is that I would rather have John McCain kick the living hell out of my shins than take a head shot from Barack Hussein Muhammad Obama. Whether it is short term or long term, McCain is a better option for America than Obama. Isn't that something to take a stand for?
All the same, careful for what you wish for.
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The other day in the grocery store (buying more beer), I saw a little girl and a little boy ... obviously big brother and little sister ... having a dispute. Little sister was getting worked up a bit. Her slightly older big brother seemed to be enjoying it.
Then little sister took a quick glance to her right which resulted in her big bro' following with a look to see what was going on. Little girl wound up and kicked this kid so hard in the shins he doubled over and hit the deck. Really thought this girl was going to go in and finish him off but instead she went running to her mommy at the end of the aisle.
My first thought, glad it was a shoe to the shin and not a 200gr. HP to the head.
Same with McCain and Obama. Like the shoe to shin is going to be less painful than a shot to the noggin with a 45, McCain is going to be a lot less painful than Obama. As well, it looked like the little girl got off with a clean assault with no harm
no foul. However, unlike McCain and Obama, there will be a definitive harm that it will last a lot longer than the sting from a kick in the shins.
By all means, take a stand for what you believe in. But like other clichés see where that gets you when your taxes go up, our country is less safe and your RKBA has been seriously damaged. What you are likely to do when you stand your ground this November is continue to fragment the conservative efforts and give an ultra left movement some serious momentum.
My point is that I would rather have John McCain kick the living hell out of my shins than take a head shot from Barack Hussein Muhammad Obama. Whether it is short term or long term, McCain is a better option for America than Obama. Isn't that something to take a stand for?
All the same, careful for what you wish for.
Thats all nice and sensible but you miss one important question. How long can the system continue before it breaks ? What then ?
At what point do; Illegal immigration, rising fuel costs, entitlment programs, etc. simply overwhelm "The System" ?
Remember New Orleans after Katrina, like that with out the water.
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Thats all nice and sensible but you miss one important question. How long can the system continue before it breaks ? What then ?
At what point do; Illegal immigration, rising fuel costs, entitlment programs, etc. simply overwhelm "The System" ?
Remember New Orleans after Katrina, like that with out the water.
Tom, you're right! What you said is what we will get with Obama x 2.
Following the logic of letting Obama win by not voting for McCain, let's sadly skip ahead to 2016 where we find that we don't have a conservative “savior” in the running that's any better than McCain is today.
What then? Wait another four to eight years for the system to really break? The question isn’t so much of how long before our system breaks as to why provide an accelerant (like Obama) for it to break?
This object lesson to “take another Carter to get another Reagan” is more than a useless cliché, it’s insane. As previously mentioned, you have NO IDEA that we will get that next conservative savior. Secondly, we don’t need someone like Obama that is going to be worse than Carter in office for four much less eight years. Doesn’t it make more sense to work with conservatives to bring about more conservative policy than HOPE that having a Marxist asshole with a bitch for a wife as President will spark interest in conservative values?!?! Insanity to let the extreme left gain momentum and to get their foot in the door and that’s what will happen if we allow Obama to get in office.
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My point is that if we don't get it with McCain, will it be the next one, or the one after that. We CANNOT continue the way we are going. The society we have built is a house of cards based on the shaky foundation of oil dependence, and spending next years money.
It does not matter if we have Hillybama socialism now or continued creeping socialism under McCain, it's still socialism, and I say NO.
If we accept even the gradual socializing of America then what was the "Cold War" all about ?
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Ron J.... we disagree. I do not want to leave this messy festering boil building for my children to lance in the future. Any of the big 3 candidates will lead to the same point, eventually. I'd rather it be here, now, for it to be dealt with. It is just wrong to think things will get better by doing the same thing over and over again expecting a change and then repeat the behaviour with the same failed expectations (insanity--doing the same thing over and over expecting different results).
It seems you think someone conservative is going to pull this out in the future...Bush led to Dole which led to Bush-Bush which is leading to McCain....why do you think a conservative is next? Let me rephrase that, if the RINO's can make their agenda, which is not our agenda, go forward benefiting themselves and if in the meantime we are sold out and end up liking it because we are "afraid" of another candidate, what is the difference...so we do it over and over again and again...where is the logic that says a conservative will evolve from a RINO controlled camp?
Historical precedent is that unless someone stands during a fall, no one is eleft standing after the fall.
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We disagree ... but we are only 180º off! ;)
Actually, we do agree that we don’t like the way things are going and don't like what has happened to the party of Reagan. The crux of our disagreement is in me not seeing how Obama being elected is going help foster conservative values in the short to long term. I can' see how it will lead to anything or fix anything that we think is wrong with conservative values.
Obama will bring higher taxes. Bigger government. Income redistribution. Our RKBA is going to be tested in ways far beyond what Heller will come down to. Most important, we have no reason to feel safe with Obama. We are in a definable war where some islamo-nut will get some nukes. Lights one off on US soil and the loss of life will be horrendous … but the loss of commerce will be catastrophic. From this view, the decision is not too tough ... anybody but B-HO. The danger of letting Obama get elected is not worth betting on.
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The White supremicists will have a CANIPTION, and attempt to assasinate him/her ???
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The White supremicists will have a CANIPTION, and attempt to assasinate him/her ???
Sad, but probably true. I wonder what the odds in Las Vegas are on this? I could see "office pools" with a grid of dates and people betting on dates. Hit the date or come closest and you get the pot.
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Sad, but probably true. I wonder what the odds in Las Vegas are on this? I could see "office pools" with a grid of dates and people betting on dates. Hit the date or come closest and you get the pot.
I might start one where I work ;D
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Well, now, understand that I am not trying to rekindle this discussion. However, in today's news:
Barr picked as Libertarian presidential candidate
By Jose Luis Magana, AP
DENVER (AP) — The Libertarian Party has picked former Republican Rep. Bob Barr to be its presidential candidate after six rounds of balloting.
The party is meeting in Denver.
Barr beat research scientist Mary Ruwart, who was the party's presidential nominee in 1983 and vice presidential candidate in 1992. Barr left the Republican Party in 2006 over what he called bloated spending and civil liberties intrusions by the Bush administration.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-25-barr_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-25-barr_N.htm)
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I was flipping through channels and saw their convention was covered on CSPAN. I can see the interest in Barr swelling. :-X
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The Three Stooges. They all eventually mean the same things...their differences are in quantity and temporal execution.
The lesser of three evils is evil, none-the-less.
For all the damage done with the borders, the dollar, government spending, the DC vs. Heller sellout, etc...I think we would have gotten the same thing or worse with Gore, had our noses rubbed in it, been outraged, would have been done with it 3 years ago and be merrily rebuilding stronger than we are now. If in that scenario with Gore as president all had been lost and we were not able to crawl out of a bad position it says something about where we are now as a nation and this current "voting thing" is just an academic exercise.
Our base is weaker now than it would have been with a Gore because going in to this election we now have a less friendly government (more bad guys in Congress), seen our Administration stack more of the bad guys in offices of influence, saw spending go through the roof, we're hearing green nonsense (not the real stuff, OK.), the dollar will soon be reChristened the Peso (for 2 reasons), and our courageous military needs critical funding, what gives do you ask? Seven years of the lesser evil may not right now be as bad as 4 years may have been with Gore....but I suspect 10-12 years of lesser evil (Bush-Bush+McCain) will be equivalent to 4 years of Gore but with with the insidious twist of being desensitized to change, having more young people programmed to the left, and we as a nation will not be able to express outrage when outrage is due (like now with the borders and don't say we successfully expressed outrage and accomplished something when we really did not because nothing has really been fixed or changed so....so much with the effectiveness our insufficient outrage and indignant expression but hey, if it makes you feel better then we are bad, we did tell them off "they know I won't put up with that, by golly".... a great hollow victory with more to come via the voting the lesser of evils).
At 10-12 years into the "lesser of evils" we'll be more desensitized and far more vulnerable to loss. We'll have a greatly diminished ability to turn things around. Our enemies abroad will be stronger, much stronger, both in military prowess and economic strength. The U.S. moral foundation will be further eroded (this is the great tragedy). Our advantage of having the U.S. dollar as the standard of currency for the world is being lost and that directly translates into a poor economy and standard of living in the future as our dollar begins to look and feel more like the peso. The dollar's pre-emminence in the world economy has not been figured into our ability to be a strong economic engine and it is flawed to perceive that any economic recovery in the future will be so swift, strong and long-lasting as we have seen in the past 50 years as our dollar, yours and mine, is pushed aside for yuans, dinars, euros, marks and such.
Every day of my life has been under threat of nuclear annihlation...just over 1/2 century. Since the end of Reagan's terms the threat has been diminished greatly...I like it that way. Anyone coming of age before 1985 it can be much worse than it is now.
We will likely end up with the "lesser of three evils" in November. After the joy and elation of "winning" again try to remember to reread this thread in 2012 and re-evaluate your basis for reason in 2008.
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper
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Rastus! Great read for this beautiful Memorial Day!
In “theory”, I agree (Tom has his defibrillator charging) that a shock is needed to get America back on track. I was not happy with George H.W. Bush; I was miserable with William Jefferson Clinton and have not been all that pleased with much of George W. Bush either. As Haz would likely say, this country needs to wake up and smell the cat food. It does appear that we are sliding slowly down into a hole that is getting “progressively” (pun intended) larger in every passing day.
However, the crux of my disagreement is that I am not willing to bet that a “theory” can serve as an object lesson in conservative values. These lessons need to be worked and groomed by all of us. Clichés like “need another Carter to get another Reagan”, “gotta hit the bottom before you can move up” or “sometimes you have to burn down your house to build a new one” are just sayings that border on insanity given the dangers Obama brings in this election. When someone says to me “in theory” something can work I will reply “in theory” communism and time-travel seem to work pretty well too. In reality, not so much. Too much at stake for betting on theories.
Instead of shock treatment, I would hope that people get involved and actively teach and practice conservative values. This will be easier (and a lot safer) to do with John Sidney McCain as President than Barack Hussein Mohammad Obama. Phone calls, letter writing, blogging, writing newspapers, TV and radio programs, attending political events … making your voice and values heard is what is needed. My 82+ year old mother handwrites and mails letters all the time. When Clinton was president, at least once per month and often once per week she would crank out a letter telling him what a morally bankrupt person he was and that he is a complete disgrace to the country. In every letter, she would urge him to resign and to “take that asshole Al Gore with you”. No different with George W. Bush. She writes him once a month begging him to fix the borders. Will say that if Obama gets elected, my mom will have a whole lot of new writing material.
We simply don’t know if we could have shocked the country into returning to its original conservative roots and values by electing either Gore or Kerry yesterday anymore than we think that we can shock the country’s values today if B-HO gets elected tomorrow. As to leadership and whom we are electing, IF you think that had we elected Gore or Kerry that we would have seen a change and now would have a “true conservative” as our political leader or “savior” … to whom would that person be today? I don’t believe any new conservative figure would have morphed into the political arena that we haven’t seen already. We would be on the same stage with the same “stooges”.
As well, I think it is critically important that we do not give the left any momentum. “Merrily rebuilding” will be much more difficult to do under liberal leadership or following liberal leadership. We will find that hole is getting deeper and overcoming such momentum more of a challenge. In short, we don’t need another Carter to realize how he weakened our country and how much time and money it cost Reagan to restore and rebuild America.
I sincerely don’t want to bet that we will get the “lesser of three evils” in November given that Barack Hussein Muhammad Obama has a real chance of being elected as President. Too much at stake for our country to lose with Obama as president. Voting for Barr or any other 3rd party candidate that has no chance in winning is one less vote that McCain needs to beat the “greater of three evils”, Obama.
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Third Party candidates, only have no chance of winning if they don't get voted for. Conceiding defeat before the contest, ensures eventuial defeat.
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CJ, you are absolutely right! 3rd party candidates will never get elected if the people here in America don’t vote for them.
And that’s the point.
We may like the platforms of 3rd party candidates but these candidates do not have the traction and support of the American people to win both the popular and the Electoral College vote. Now if they did, this is a whole different argument. But as we stand today, unless there is a miracle between now and November, no 3rd party candidate is going to win the Presidential election. All they will do is draw needed votes away from some other candidate that is on the ballet.
Our next president will be either Barack Hussein Muhammad Obama or John Sidney McCain.
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I appreciate your thoughtful and polite remarks; civility allows for productive social discourse despite being at odds. I sincerely hope you are right and that I am absolutely and completely wrong. I feel strongly, because of evidence, there is no substantial down-the-road difference in the top three candidates and that in the long run the result of choosing "the lesser of evils" is that we have only postponed the inevitable suffering my children will endure.
It is, I think, appropriate to repeat without citation that, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." That is to say, if locked into supporting only those who are electable our battle has been decided and we have only to ponder what has led us to defeat.
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We will likely end up with the "lesser of three evils" in November. After the joy and elation of "winning" again try to remember to reread this thread in 2012 and re-evaluate your basis for reason in 2008.
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" Rebuilding merrily " will not involve liberals (Socialists) as they will be deported to Cuba, China or some other "Workers Paradise" Nanny state. The loss of conservitive values is directly atributable to the influx of liberals into the educational system in this country and the 50 years of indoctrination of students by teachers and an education association that are blatently socialist, pushing the agenda of foriegn organizations like the UN.
First they removed prayer from school, this has led to a loss of morality. Then they removed "corporal punishment from school, this led to a loss of discipline among students and teachers lost control of their class rooms. They removed the Pledge of Alleigence, from schools and we have seen a steady decline in Patriotism. They removed competitive testing from school and we have seen a decrease in actual learning, it is being replaced with social indoctrination, that is why American schools turn out so many "Activists" and protesters and so few engineers.
This is what you get with "the lesser evil". It took the Jews 2000 years to regain THEIR nation, the Irish had to fight for 600 years, do you wish to leave THAT legacy to your children ?
PS I burned the crap out of myself when the difibrilator arced out on my .45 ;D
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PS I burned the crap out of myself when the difibrilator arced out on my .45 ;D
Tom, sometimes you need to leave the 1911's at home and go with polymer frames just to be safe. ;)
I knew there was another reason other than needing two in 45 and "I wanna" to get that M&P 45......
Always learning something new from other's experiences on this board! :o
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Tom! My wife wanted to know what I was laughing at and I said that you burned yourself with a difibrillator and she called me a "sick puppy" for laughing.
I have a beer in my hand and am toasting you guys! Have a great Memorial Day!
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The mistake is that we have allowed two parties to dictate election choice. I don't trust McCain on any of his promises. He seems to forget the promises when he gets in the same room with death-o-crats. Maybe Barr will put Alan Keyes on the ticket with him. I would like to see that.
Going to the booth and holding our nose why we pull for the least smelliest is not choice and we should be holding the two parties which are not very different accountable by voting "none of the above." :P
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Tom! My wife wanted to know what I was laughing at and I said that you burned yourself with a difibrillator and she called me a "sick puppy" for laughing.
I have a beer in my hand and am toasting you guys! Have a great Memorial Day!
Just so your wife will relax, I assure her I haven't Really had any heart trouble since I quit living on Eggs over easy for breakfast and McD's for supper ;D
A great Memorial day to you as well.
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I'm not sure if any of you have seen this or not. I haven't had time to read all the post lately. It's kind of long, but makes some good points. I don't agree with him on bringing the troops home, I would rather fight on their turf than ours.
Three Peas In A Pod
By Chuck Baldwin May 16, 2008
This column is archived at http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20080516.html
I realize that is extremely difficult for some people to think outside the box. The vast majority of people are prone to be followers, to "go with the flow," to follow the path of least resistance. This appears to be the nature of human nature.
Therefore, I think I understand the reasoning of many who are so reluctant to step outside the two major parties and vote for a third party candidate. I seem to recall that I, too, was just as hesitant
(though not for nearly as long as some people) as they are.
We have all heard it before: He doesn't stand a chance; it's a wasted vote; we must work within the party to make it better, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
Now, I will be the first to admit that the deck is stacked against an independent candidate succeeding at any political level. The two dominant parties do not like competition. And they have made it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for third parties to have a fighting chance to prevail. My brief experience in third parties convinces me that the old state parties of Eastern Europe had nothing on America's two major parties, when it comes to dominating and controlling elections.
The media, too, is a co-opted and controlled environment. They refuse to cover minor parties and then attempt to justify their manipulation by saying something along the lines of, "We won't let you participate until you reach 'X' percentage points." But, of course, their refusal to give an independent candidate any time to present his or her views directly contributes to the lack of percentage points.
I believe that any candidate who has obtained ballot access in enough states to theoretically obtain sufficient electoral votes to win the election (an arduous and expensive process all by itself) should automatically be included in any and all debates and should be given an equal opportunity to present his or her views to the public. Anything less than this is deliberate manipulation of the election. And that is exactly what the two major parties and their collaborators in the mainstream media are doing.
That aside, one would think that sooner or later the American people would wake up to what is happening right in front of their eyes. One would think that they would realize that no matter which party wins the White House or wins control of Congress, most things stay pretty much the same.
All this talk of "conservatism" or "liberalism" is--for the most part--nothing more than campaign rhetoric. It means absolutely nothing. No matter which party wins, the federal government continues to get bigger and more intrusive. American manufacturing jobs and industries continue to be outsourced overseas. Our military personnel continue to be used as the personal militia for the United Nations. Our borders remain open to illegal immigration. The creation of a North American Union marches forward. Construction for the NAFTA superhighway continues unabated. The tactics of the IRS get more and more egregious. Americans continue to work harder and longer for less return, while politicians and CEOs of multinational corporations get richer and more powerful.
It just does not matter one whit which major party "wins." The American people, freedom, limited government, and the U.S. Constitution lose! One would think that at some point the American people would say "That's enough" and stop drinking the Kool-Aid from these two major parties. And if there was ever a year when the time appears right for such a revolution, one would think this would be the year.
Look at the three leading candidates: they are three peas in a pod. There is no substantive difference between them. Neither Obama, Clinton, nor McCain have any desire to stop illegal immigration. On this issue, there is no difference between McCain and the Democrats. None. John McCain even voted to grant Social Security benefits to illegal aliens. He joined with Senator Ted Kennedy to provide amnesty to illegal aliens.
Take the war in Iraq. The only candidate among the top three who even hints at bringing our troops home is Obama. And if anyone believes that he is serious about it, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. Neither of the two major parties has any interest in bringing our troops home. No matter which party wins the White House, our troops will continue to be used for U.N. missions all over the world. We will continue to stick our nose wherever it does not belong. We will continue our utopian plans of nation-building, empire-building and international meddling.
No matter which of the two major parties captures the White House, the C.F.R. will dominate the President's cabinet appointees. Good grief! John McCain, himself, is a member of the C.F.R. Even in the area of federal judges, John McCain was one of the original "Gang of 14" Republicans who joined liberal Democrats in opposing the selection of strict constructionist judges to the federal bench. Anyone who believes that McCain will appoint someone such as Clarence Thomas or Antonin Scalia is living in a fantasy world.
Regarding the Second Amendment, Gun Owners of America rates John McCain with an F-. It doesn't get any worse than that, folks. On gun issues, John McCain is not the "lesser of two evils." Not in any manner, shape, or form.
Just recently, McCain committed himself to supporting the U.N.-sponsored global warming treaty. As with so many of McCain's policies, this one is right out of the Democratic playbook.
Regarding the loss of America's sovereignty and the merger of the U.S. into a regional or hemispheric government entity, noted columnist Cliff Kincaid writes, "McCain's strange rhetoric about 'North, Central, and South American life' reflects a view that nation-states are disappearing and being replaced by regional alliances and institutions. He referred to 'the powerful collective voice of the European Union,' as if the U.S. response would have to be submersion of our voice in a larger hemispheric entity. But McCain seems to be calling for something beyond even a North American Union (NAU) of the U.S., Mexico, and Canada. He talked about 'creating the new international institutions necessary to advance the peace and freedoms we cherish,' as if they would be built on top of the EU and the NAU.
"Earlier, McCain had declared, 'With globalization, our hemisphere has grown closer, more integrated, and more interdependent. Latin America today is increasingly vital to the fortunes of the United States. Americans north and south share a common geography and a common destiny.' But why should trade with America's neighbors necessarily lead to a 'common destiny?' This implies a political merger of the U.S. with other countries."
Does that sound like John McCain is the "lesser of two evils" to you? Have you heard Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama talk like this? Again, in regard to the loss of America's sovereignty and independence, there is no "lesser of two evils" between the major parties.
Can conservatives, Christians, and constitutionalists really go to the polls this November and vote for someone such as John McCain? Do they really not see what John McCain would do to this country? Do they really believe that Clinton or Obama would be any worse? If they do, they are living in a fantasy world.
Take the issue of abortion. John McCain has made a career out of opposing pro-life candidates and causes. Just recently, Jill Stanek wrote a revealing column regarding the duplicity of John McCain's position on the life issue.
See Stanek's column at http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64177
McCain has steadfastly opposed the Republican Party's pro-life plank. He has even stated his opposition to overturning Roe v. Wade. He said, "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support the repeal of Roe v. Wade . . . ."
How long will conservatives, Christians, and lovers of liberty continue to blindly follow these two parties? Can they not see that our constitutional republic and our liberty is hanging by a thread? Do they not realize that Democrats and Republicans alike are willful participants in the destruction of our way of life?
Ladies and gentlemen, please wake up! Get your heads out of the sand! Our country is imploding and we keep electing and re-electing the same scoundrels who are culpable. The media provides them cover. Many of our pastors and Christian leaders provide them cover as well. But it is the people of this country--you and me--who have the power to actually do something about it.
How about this year--just this once--let's think for ourselves? Let's vote our principles. Let's forget what the pundits and experts say. Let's quit allowing the radio and TV talking heads to tell us who to vote for. And let's not be afraid to vote outside the two major parties. No, check that. Let's make a commitment to vote outside the two major parties.
The two major parties have had 150 years to improve our country, to make our country a better place in which to live. What have they done with all this power and opportunity? They have brought us to the edge of destruction.
I believe it was Albert Einstein who said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Americans have been electing Republicans and Democrats over and over again, and we have been getting the same result. Let's try something different this year. What do you say?
*If you enjoyed this column and want to help me distribute these editorial opinions to an ever-growing audience, donations may now be made by credit card, check, or Money Order. Use this link:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/donate.php
(c) Chuck Baldwin
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I'm not sure if any of you have seen this or not. I haven't had time to read all the post lately. It's kind of long, but makes some good points. I don't agree with him on bringing the troops home, I would rather fight on their turf than ours.
Three Peas In A Pod
> By Chuck Baldwin
> May 16, 2008
> ......
> Regarding the Second Amendment, Gun Owners of America rates John
McCain with an F-. It doesn't get any worse than that, folks. On gun
issues, John McCain is not the "lesser of two evils." Not in any
manner, shape, or form.
I'm not questioning our esteemed member Jerry, just a prudent source check of Baldwin...has anybody gotten confirmation on this?
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Here is a link to Gunowners of America on McCain:
http://gunowners.org/pres08/mccain.htm (http://gunowners.org/pres08/mccain.htm)
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Here are his ratings from GOA.
2000 = C--
2002 = C--
2004 = F--
2006 = F--
Hyperlink to confirm, other articles: http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm (http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm)
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Nice pro-Libertarian rant. For a Baptist preacher, Dr. Baldwin makes excellent use of some half-truths to attempt credibility too.
Examples …McCain’s stance on abortion. His record has been very clear on this even with one of the sources that Baldwin quoted in his rant. Another example is Baldwin’s comments to our RKBA. The GOA rates McCain an F-. So?!? If we were to follow the 2nd Amendment (as we should!) we would rate every candidate and every president an F- since Teddy Roosevelt. The quote that McCain is “not in any manner, shape or form” the lesser of two evils when compared to Barack Hussein Obama on gun control is patently untrue. Baldwin omitted Obama’s record on this and has distorted McCain’s. We all agree that McCain is not as strong as we would like; but to say he is on par with Obama is completely false and derails Baldwin’s journalistic credibility.
My 2¢ and primary objection with Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party is on their platform against the war on terror. Parallel to what Rastus said … Barr is a “surrender monkey”. Sure he was once for our war in Iraq but is now against it. He was once for the Patriot Act and is now against that too. In this sense, Barr sounds too much like Hillary! Given their stance that the United States of America should not be “the world’s policeman”, the Libertarians are weak on national defense.
I am a bit twisted but the way I see the three candidates and their view on the war against terror is like this … Barr wants to ignore the Islamo-nuts, Obama wants to give them a hand-job, and McCain wants to kill them. To me, this is the critical success driver to who will get my vote this November.
Lastly, the LP and their laissez-faire platform do not jive with Americans. If it did, their convention in Denver would have had more than one CSPAN camera working it. Because of this, Barr has no chance of capturing more than 3% of the popular vote and even less of a chance getting ONE Electoral College vote. Bob Barr will not be the next President.
Might agree that this is the lesser of two evils ... between McCain and Barr. I don’t want to vote for McCain BUT I want Barr even less.
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I can't say any more than what has already been said.. but I have my guns ready and I've got Ron J's. back.
I'm with him all the way.
No way in hells creation do we want Obama in office under any circumstances.
You can vote for any 4th, 5th or 6th party if you want to.... and you can cast your vote until you don't have any nose left to spite your face with... and call it anything you want to call it ...
But lets call a pigs ass pork.. It just means that Obama votes are counted on the plus side..
I prefer to stack my vote for McCain , so it will cross out one for Obama.
Not throw my vote to the wind and make one of his good.
Simple as that.
And as for letting BHO have it ...hoping the "US will be strong enough to withstand his destruction"...and "getting the bad out of the way" so our kids won't have to worry??!!??
WHAT?? Is everyone on crack?
The damage that this man and a house full of Demos backing him can do in 4 years will be irreversible. No guns.. no protection.. illegals and welfare rats running and sucking the country dry.. I could go on and on.. but I believe I'll just stop before I totally have to actually believe that anyone wouldn't do EVERYTHING in their power to STOP Obama and his Marxist ideas from getting into the White House..and when I say do anything.. I mean anything.
If that means voting for the only man who has a viable chance of keeping him out.. then do it..
But then again.............................it's a free country( for now at least) and you can vote in anyone you want to..
But when all your guns are outlawed and it is a do or die to keep them.. and you have a President in office who stands for everything that this country was NOT founded on.... don't say we didn't tell you so.
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Marshal'ette, I seldom disagree with you , BUT (Ron j always expects THAT ;D ) It's do or die to keep them NOW.The ONLY benifit of McC is we get a little more time to buy ammo before we have to head for Lexington Common again anyway. I'm sick of having smoke blown up my a$$, I'm saying vote your beleifs and get your ammo free off a dead socialist supporter.
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Marshal'ette ... you said it best!
You can vote for any 4th, 5th or 6th party if you want to.... and you can cast your vote until you don't have any nose left to spite your face with... and call it anything you want to call it ...
But lets call a pigs ass pork.. It just means that Obama votes are counted on the plus side..
And as for letting BHO have it ...hoping the "US will be strong enough to withstand his destruction"...and "getting the bad out of the way" so our kids won't have to worry??!!??
WHAT?? Is everyone on crack?
I am on my way out of town for a few days for a job interview and I needed to read this! Best lines of this thread! Ron
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Nice pro-Libertarian rant. For a Baptist preacher, Dr. Baldwin makes excellent use of some half-truths to attempt credibility too.
I hear the reasons why we should vote for McCain, the Supreme court, the war. But with the prediction of a veto proof congress ahead maybe it is time to give the Grand Old Party the message to get back to its roots of God, family and country; NOW.
Remember the Gang of Fourteen? That was over conservative federal judge appointments. Do you really think McCain will show the fortitude necessary to fight for a conservative appointment? I am not putting my money on that bet. In fact I won't even wager your money on it Ron.
Look it, Washington is broken and broken real bad. I just wrote my Congressman and Senators (Connecticut) about the their plans for providing increased supplies of present fuel sources, incentives for developing alternative fuel sources. I have not heard a reply from any of them. And this has been the practice of these professional politicians from the fight for marriage to the war in Iraq.
They are not representing us, they are only worried about keeping their jobs and if that means spending my grandchildren's money now to do that for the sheep of this society, they will do it.
It is time for term limits and a broader base of candidates.
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party generally. . . . A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume." George Washington's Farewell Address - 1796
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What I am saying is that 3rd party candidates usually don't stand even a snowball's chance in Hell of winning, and McCain knows this, although a 3rd party candidate like Barr or Paul will hurt him directly,...
A 3rd party candidate will hurt US directly! Vote for Barr and you will assure the election of Barak Hussein Obama.
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A 3rd party candidate will hurt US directly! Vote for Barr and you will assure the election of Barak Hussein Obama.
Bullseye!
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Sorry guys, I can not vote for those who do not hold my values. I looked at the Libertarian ticket and their values. They do not protect the innocent unborn and have no position on the destruction of family through homosexual marriage. Take a look at the Constitution Party. :o
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Sorry guys, I can not vote for those who do not hold my values. I looked at the Libertarian ticket and their values. They do not protect the innocent unborn and have no position on the destruction of family through homosexual marriage. Take a look at the Constitution Party. :o
No offense, but you are still wasting your vote as much as if you were to do a write in vote for Jesus Christ. If you vote for a third party candidate and not for one with a viable chance of winning, then the bottom line is that you are casting a vote for Obama. Look, I want Reagan to be able to have another term as president as much as anyone else on this forum, but I don't think he is going to be able to serve.
The reality of the situation is that no politician out there is worth a damn, and every election is a choice between the lesser of two evils. The only realistic thing you can do is to try to elect the most conservative person to office, and then try as best as you can to hold his feet to the fire once elected.
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But when all your guns are outlawed and it is a do or die to keep them.. and you have a President in office who stands for everything that this country was NOT founded on.... don't say we didn't tell you so.
They wont be able to find all of my guns. 8) There will be a few buried in pelican cases out in the woods with a large supply of ammo just in case we have a dooms day scenario.
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They wont be able to find all of my guns. 8) There will be a few buried in pelican cases out in the woods with a large supply of ammo just in case we have a dooms day scenario.
When they knock on my door for the ones they know about it IS the "doomsday scenario". Good planning though.
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Here's a thought ... Why don't we make sure that this knucklehead B-HO doesn't get elected?
Cast your vote as you would fire for effect. Don't shoot or vote just because you like the way it sounds. Vote for someone that will defeat Obama ... not for someone that will lose to Obama.
To quote what Marshal’ette recently said, let’s call a pig’s ass pork people. Right now, there is only one person that can defeat Obama in November and that is John McCain.
Don’t let you vote count for Obama.
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With friends like McCain........
Enlighten what I have missed from the NRA convention (or elsewhere during the campaign) that McCain has promised and that 2nd Ammendment supporters can believe in? Can we be reasonably certain he will not once again speak to the right and act to the left? McCain has, coupled with Feingold, been one of the most damaging persons in history to muffle gun rights.
It is your right to vote for McCain and to believe your way. Provide relevant links that can cause me to vote in 2nd Ammendment belief of a candidate, not to vote out of fear of another candidate.
Let's call a horse's ass an ass. McCain is a horse's ass who has a history of selling out the 2nd Ammendment.
The Republican party has made no meaningful overtures towards gun owners...using empty promises to, as it appears, once again take us for granted. For that matter, outside the 2nd Ammendment the Republican leadership "looks and feels" like a dem-lite. Unfortunately (?), social democrats are kicking republican ass in congressional races right now.....are the Republican's listening? Are they changing their behaviour yet....have they gotten the message....do they care?
Fear of B-HO will not drive me to vote for McCain. Pundits will not drive me to vote for McCain. The current politics have pushed me to this position....I understand why fear drives my 80 year old mother to vote for McCain, but I am not yet so frail and fearful.
McCain must convince me to vote for McCain.
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With friends like McCain........
If you vote for a third party candidate, then you might as well just stay home.
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If you vote for a third party candidate, then you might as well just stay home.
Once again, desire to be a lemming or the joy of being led by the nose to vote against a "scary candidate" no longer motivates me.
Per my previous post:
"Fear of B-HO will not drive me to vote for McCain. Pundits will not drive me to vote for McCain. The current politics have pushed me to this position....I understand why fear drives my 80 year old mother to vote for McCain, but I am not yet so frail and fearful.
McCain must convince me to vote for McCain."
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Per my previous post:
No offense, but you are still wasting your vote as much as if you were to do a write in vote for Jesus Christ. If you vote for a third party candidate and not for one with a viable chance of winning, then the bottom line is that you are casting a vote for Obama. Look, I want Reagan to be able to have another term as president as much as anyone else on this forum, but I don't think he is going to be able to serve.
The reality of the situation is that no politician out there is worth a damn, and every election is a choice between the lesser of two evils. The only realistic thing you can do is to try to elect the most conservative person to office, and then try as best as you can to hold his feet to the fire once elected.
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Nice defeatist attitude. Why don't you just turn in your guns now?
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Nice defeatist attitude. Why don't you just turn in your guns now?
I love ya to death honey.. but I have to go nose to nose with you on this one.
It is NOT a defeatist attitude.
It is an attitude of "playing the game smart" and trying to defeat the ones who have promised if they get in office, that they are for sure going to plant our asses 8 foot under.
I'm all for standing on the front lines to fight..but by god I want a little bit of the elected President to be a conservative gun person..who will at least maybe let me have my gun to fight with.
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I love ya to death honey.. but I have to go nose to nose with you on this one.
It is NOT a defeatist attitude.
It is an attitude of "playing the game smart" and trying to defeat the ones who have promised if they get in office, that they are for sure going to plant our asses 8 foot under.
I'm all for standing on the front lines to fight..but by god I want a little bit of the elected President to be a conservative gun person..who will at least maybe let me have my gun to fight with.
I'm with Haz and Rastus. The only ones who LET me have ANYTHING were the guys who signed the Declarition of Independance and the Constitution of The United States, Everything else I have (Except the cool Ruger shirt) I have had to work my ass off to get. I don't care who gets elected, they can pass all the laws they want, If you hear that MY guns have been confiscated send flowers as I'm dead.
I enjoy indoor plumbing, sleeping indoors in winter and the other amenities of civilization, but I will not trade my pride, self respect, and principles for mere comfort. There are worse things than death.
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All of this discussion is exactly why I posted in the first place. As Rastus noted, McCain has yet to even try to make us comfortable. Granted, he was the only candidate to speak at the NRA Show, but he made no commitments as I understand.
I had originally asked MB if, from his role with the Huckabee campaign he had any clout with the RNC, could we get some reassurances from McCain. His proven track record is scary, and the silence from the man and the RNC is deafening - they want exactly what is happening - the dumbocrats are tearing themselves apart, and McCain needs to say very little controversial to benefit.
I will muddy the water a tad here, or will muddy it more. Remember, the 'rats are masters of the vote fraud. Kerry scored the highest popular vote turnout in US history with one exception, the man who beat him. Diluting the republican vote will cause b-ho to be elected. It stinks, it is not right, but that is the way it is.
Which makes it all the more important that we look to Congress and voting our consciences there too.
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I love ya to death honey.......
....who will at least maybe let me have my gun to fight with.
Marshal'ette, this is the greatest website and I appreciate the work you and your husband put into keeping this thing going as I also appreciate the sponsorship of Mr. Bane. I know, without a doubt, we all want the same thing and that we all, each and everyone of us, feel deeply and passionately about the 2nd Ammenment. But, unless you mispoke in the heat of the moment, your quote may sum up our trek down the "rabbit hole" that I am so concerned with.
Power is always given by the people in any government, even Marxists governments. Leaders are able to misuse power because their are not enough people willing to exercise their power. It is the populace's recognition they have the power that used to set U.S. apart from Europe....not the paper on which the ideals are enumerated on, the Constitution. The Constitution is our "reference" by which we agree to be governed.
What does it say for us to feel the need to require some agreement or permission to exercise freedom?
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Kudos to Tom and Rastus.
I will not give my approval to 'the lesser'. My convictions, my bond, my word, my character and my 'line in the sand' dictate that I cannnot.
M'ette, I love you too babe but politics is not a game. It affects or tries to, way to much of my life to call it a game. It is a contest or a war if they push, on how much freedom I am willing to give up for the'greater good'.
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And yes, it really says a lot for ya'll that I haven't gotten kicked off the board. Other boards would have treated me like MB get's treated! Thank you for letting me speak out! :)
Not to change the subject....but the boys and I did get to shoot MG's at USSA yesterday. $6 for 20 rounds in an AK, $10 for 50 rounds of 9MM in an Uzi or Sten gun...$12 for 20 rounds of .223 in and HK or M-16...CHEAP! ! ! ! I ended up spending over $150 yesterday...but I do have 3 boys and how can you put a price on a huge grin? ;D
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And yes, it really says a lot for ya'll that I haven't gotten kicked off the board. Other boards would have treated me like MB get's treated! Thank you for letting me speak out! :)
Not to change the subject....but the boys and I did get to shoot MG's at USSA yesterday. $6 for 20 rounds in an AK, $10 for 50 rounds of 9MM in an Uzi or Sten gun...$12 for 20 rounds of .223 in and HK or M-16...CHEAP! ! ! ! I ended up spending over $150 yesterday...but I do have 3 boys and how can you put a price on a huge grin? ;D
UUUU RAHHH !
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The discussion of ideas is such a wonderful thing.
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Dammit- Dammit-Dammit! (http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/angry.gif)
"LET" was a BAD word ..and I didn't realize I said it actually. >:(
Mistake on words on my part. :P
If any one of you knew me on a personal level..you would know that "let" just isn't in my frame of vocabulary.
(Just ask Marshal :-X )
(I agree with you all on that part) I will allow no one to let me have anything. But.......................
Politics is a game. A SERIOUS game.
The outcome of this sometimes can have a life or death ending. So you better be in it to play hard.
My simple point is:
I kinda like living right now. You know... all those silly little things that make your short stay on this earth nice. I'm not talking about a roof over my head or food or water or any type of material factors...although those are nice.
I'm talking about seeing my kids everyday and getting hugs and kisses from my grandkids and helping them and being here for them as long as I can... hoping like hell that they won't have to fight people like the Obamas ands the Clintons just to hang on to their American rights.
Bottom line once again is:
We keep "them" out of office any way we can! This mama bear will do anything I have to do to try to protect my family. To fight what we have coming at us in the coming years is bad enough .. but to have a Muslim fascist dictator setting in the White House with a house full of like minded Democrats nodding their bobble heads to everything he throws at them is something I don't want
to have add to that list of fights.
Vote for McCain? Hell yes. He might be far from the perfect best.(understatement)... but to me, he is the only chance we have right now in keeping us out of the boiling pot..
Sending a message by voting off the ballet is fine..IF you can afford the consequences.. and my dear friends..
There WILL BE HUGE consequences.
And I ask you all this.. (and REALLY REALLY THINK about it before you answer.) Not a hell yes I would die answer.. but really think about it for real.
If ...in the middle of the night, you and your wife, children are all sleeping sounding .. or you are all together watching TV....
Just having family time..everyone calm and together. Mind is in relax mode. And search and seizure not being the most prevailant thing on your mind.
Someone knocks on the door. Or just comes in forcibly.( depends on many things)
There standing before you shoving their way into your home is about 6-8 fully armed , fully geared military type men...pointing loaded BIG guns at not only you.. but your children and wife.
They say that they are there to confiscate your firearms.
You of course tell them "no you are not taking my guns" and in so many words, order them to leave.
They don't leave.. and if you were alone, you might fight them.. or try .. but I'm sure that they usually make sure that they outnumber you.
** Realistically.... do you put your daughters, sons and wife in harms way at that time by fighting to the "death" and having the rest of your family possibly get hurt, or worse?.........Plus they now no longer have you..as a dad..in their life anymore.......
and when the gestapo is done with their destruction.. they take the guns ..so ...................... :-\
Or do you fight like hell ...NOW.... to keep the bastards that want to try to enforce this law out of office anyway you can?
The Rabbit Hole is there I know..and we're slipping ..I realize that too.
But I'll be damned if I will go ahead and vote 3rd party so all of Obama's votes will stand as good and just give up and turn loose of everything that is keeping me out of the hole, making the slide in faster than shit coming out of a hot horn!
I'm a woman ( not physically as strong as a man)...and I'm smart enough to know that without my pack with me..
( being my husband, ex-husband,& sons ) I don't stand a china mans chance in hell of holding off or being able to fight against 6 fully armed men.
I think about this scenario quite a lot.
What would I do? I can tell you I wouldn't just hand them over.. but am I willing to try to draw/shoot on them ..knowing that they will shoot me point blank...leaving my family motherless and grandmotherless?
but I do have 3 boys and how can you put a price on a huge grin? ;D
My point Rastus.
I have 2 sons ... who say that they will fight to the death if that happens ...but if it happens (without "our pack" all together) ..........will they really ?? When those babies are standing there in the same room...watching with terrified eyes...will they really?? Those are young children who desperately need their daddy as they grow up. And I don't know many dads in this forum that will willingly leave their youngins to fight for themselves.
I honestly can say that I do not know what I will do! It's sadness I know..
What comes to mind....
Survival? ....Definitely.
Cowerdlyness? Maybe......................................... :-\
But I hope I never have to find out.. Cause I just flat don't know what I would do!
Food for thought....
Rastus.... if you got to shoot MG's at USSA yesterday..and want to continue to have things of this nature available to you... Ya better make sure that the Demos don't get to dance at the Inauguration Ball.
Make your vote count for the conservative who is electable on the ballot.. After he is in office... THEN we (along with the NRA) will put the pressure down and continue fighting to make sure we keep our rights as they are now. ..We'll at least, then, have a prayer of winning "the game"... or "contest"..or "war". (whatever you want to call it)
One more thing........
I don't know why any of you would think you would be kicked off this forum.
In my opinion, we have the best wide array (sometimes disarray ::) ;D ) of viewpoints and ideas and discussions that I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter.
In a sense, we have become "family". And family ..no matter what.. always respects each other.
We may not agree on the path that needs to be taken.. but we all have the same destination in mind.
:)
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Marshal'ette, I got flamed and eventualy thrown off "The highroad" for a post that many here agreed with ;D
As to the main portion of your post, I'm alone in the world, if "they" come crashing through the door and windows I will go for my .45 (If I'm awake, I sleep like a log so if I'm asleep I'm sunk ;D )
Others, like you, and Rastus have other situations and others to consider, I don't, so it makes my choice easier
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Marshal'ette ...
What the hell???? "... kisses from you grandkids..." You have grandkids? Grandkids?!? They must allow you all to start really young in Kansas. Grandkids?!?
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Damned proud to have such well written and committed brothers and sisters.
You outside people best leave us alone!
Mac & Mr. Daniels.
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For those to say that you can’t vote for McCain because you “need to send a message”, your “moral integrity” is at risk, that you “have to take a stand”, don’t want to be a “lemming” or that “we need another Carter to get another Reagan”; this is for you.
You really think your vote for anyone but McCain is going to send a message? Only message you will send is that the VERY WORST of not just two evils, but the VERY WORST OF ALL EVILS in Barack Hussein Obama will be elected as your President. THINK ABOUT THAT. You really want to do this to your country? If you do, keep on reading.
You really think that Obama getting elected will serve as a “lesson” for “moral integrity” and for future conservative values? That some grand messiah for conservative values will magically appear if Obama is elected? Guess what? No new leader will appear that hasn’t already. What makes this “object lesson” clinically insane is, why in the hell would you want another Carter to get another Reagan anyway? This is like shooting yourself in the family jewels to demonstrate poor gun safety. (Fill in the blank) stupid.
Think that voting for a 3rd or whatever party is that you’re “taking a stand”? Think again. NO ONE WILL GIVE A DAMN HOW YOU VOTE IF OBAMA WINS. Get it? NO ONE. Your “stand” means nothing other than Obama winning. Oh … but it’s your “pride”. How’s your pride going to make you feel when Obama is elected? You think ANYONE will pat you on the back for taking a stand on your vote? No. Likely be pissed off you threw a vote away. One more time. How will your pride feel when Obama wins? I will tell you. IT WILL HURT TO SIT DOWN. What we know is that Obama promises to be FAR worse than Clinton or Carter could have ever been in their wildest wet dreams. Again, one simple mathematical question here people …. Not voting for McCain will allow Obama to win. You still want this?
If you do because you think Obama will start a “revolution” among the conservatives, guess again. Not going to happen. We may get really PISSED OFF when he pushes micro-stamping, banning concealed carry and taxing the living crap out of ammunition sales BUT THERE WILL BE NO REVOLUTION. Sorry that you can’t justify the 10,000 rounds you bought at Midway to your wife but there will be no revolution BECAUSE NO ONE HAS THE CAPABILITY OR THE STONES TO START ONE. Hell, most people won’t even write a letter or attend a political event much less start a fight. All we will get is pure ass misery for four to eight years with Barack Hussein Obama as President. Period.
So voting for McCain and defeating the worst of all evils is a “defeatist attitude”? Being a “lemming”? I don’t get it. A “defeatist” would be one that throws his vote for someone like Barr or Baldwin or says “none of the above” and stays home. Vote for a candidate that you know in your heart of hearts is going to lose AND the guy who wins is the WORST OF ALL EVILS. Now that’s being a defeatist. As to be a “lemming”, guess what? When you take a path towards the destruction that Obama has planned you fit the definition to perfection.
Still not convinced? OK. Then look at the other party’s candidates.
Bob Barr is a “surrender monkey” that has recently joined a party that stands for less conservative values than McCain’s GOP. On national defense, The Libertarian Party is too weak even compared to Clinton standards. Chuck Baldwin and the Constitution Party? Please. While their platform reads like a wet dream to ultra right Christian conservatives, they are too far right to have ANY chance. To this, Mike Huckabee has a better chance of winning in November than Chuck Baldwin.
The worst of all evils is Barack Hussein Obama. Take your stand. Still want to draw your line in the sand? If so, be sure to stick your head in it. Or look at the other option. Defeat Barack Obama by voting for John McCain. Then, get off your ass and make your voice heard for conservative values.
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Ron J-
Right on target!
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I have still not been scared into voting for McCain.
Concerning stones...I understand not everyone has been put in the position on Railroad Avenue in Hammond, LA, in 1978 to tell some guy with a gun that, "If you are man enough to pull the trigger then I'm man enough to die." Knowing ones self is a good thing.
I tend to agree there will be no revolution...didn't happen in the UK or Austrailia why would it happen in what is becoming Europe 2.0? Using stones to help people who arent' willing to help themselves....is not going to happen. They will be used to support my own family. Being stupid enough to to paint an 'X' on myself by being beligerent at when it's over....not going to happen either. I did not get a Masters in Engineering by being stupid. It's the sheep people with "rights" who will mouth off at the wrong time and get the gun butt in the teeth and jack boot on the throat...history to be repeated.
McCain still has to convince me to vote for McCain.
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Rastus:
McCain still has to convince me to vote for McCain.
But hasn't Obama convinced you that we can't under any circumstance let him be president?
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Now we're "moving on". Demographics, despite his wins in the primaries, shows that less than 50% of dems will vote for B-HO in an open primary. We had the same kind of a thing in Louisiana back in the '80's or '90's when Cleo Fields ran....before I moved to Oklahoma. Only a specific group turned out to vote for him and in the general election Cleo lost miserably.
My opinion, B-HO can't win the presidential election against a decent hair-lipped dog catcher. My focus, since I don't believe B-HO can win is what can we do to steer the Republican party back towards the center and I don't think that happens by accepting what we are given. My fear is that Hillary will pull out the nomination and that the RINO's will not move to center....a lose-lose situation. And lose is what the RINO's are doing now...in my old U.S. Congressional District outside Baton Rouge, LA a complete idiot took the race over the Repub....why...not oil price...Trent Lott, Lindsay Graham, George Bush and all the other RINO's that have sold us out. Open borders, fiscal irresponsibilty, less-than-truthfulness on the RINO's part has caused a shift in U.S. politics...except in Democratic strongholds...pretty much only in Repub areas.
The Clinton's are not quite finished yet...they crossed a lot of Dems back when and the left wing media tilts even further left to B-HO, but short of Hillary not showing up to the convention "it ain't over". For instance, Bill Richardson wanted a promise to be Secretary of the State Department...did not get it with Hillary so where did he go...my point...lots of posturing to go and between now and then many Dems may jump ship back to Hillary if the hopelessness of a B-HO victory in the general election begins to dawn on them and they begin to see their only hopes for big time power are from Hildabeast.
Thus far, there have been no concessions to conservatives in general the 2nd Ammendment in particular, that I have seen.
Let's see McCain give us some kind of real assurances or concessions...something beyond read my lips...something pro-gun without the subterfuge.
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Still a lot that can happen between now and November. We can only hope that B-HO will do his very best to step on his own _____ a few more times.
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Still a lot that can happen between now and November. We can only hope that B-HO will do his very best to step on his own _____ a few more times.
In midevil times a "Petard" was a type of mine used to blow up castle walls, they tended to go off kind of randomly, So "Hoisted by his own Petard" refers to blowing yourself up, not being hung by your ... ;D
Yes, much can happen, "Especialy in June, thats when RFK got assasinated" ;D B Ho might get "Fostered" ;D
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In midevil times a "Petard" was a type of mine used to blow up castle walls, they tended to go off kind of randomly, So "Hoisted by his own Petard" refers to blowing yourself up, not being hung by your ... ;D
Yes, much can happen, "Especialy in June, thats when RFK got assasinated" ;D B Ho might get "Fostered" ;D
St. Peter is at the Pearly Gates checking up on the people waiting to enter Heaven.
He asks the next one in line, 'So, who are you, and what did you do on Earth?'
The fellow says, 'I'm Barak Obama, and I was the first black to be elected President of the United States '
St. Peter says, 'The U.S.? A black President? You gotta be kidding me! When did this happen?'
And Obama says, 'Oh, about twenty minutes ago.'
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What shocks me more than someone really thinking that Barr can change anything much less have a chance at winning?!?
That you and Marshall have grandkids.
:o
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Well, they are my grandkids actually.
My youngest is 28 with a 15 month old and my oldest is 34 with a 6 year old.
Marshal and I have only been married for 4 years.
(but he spoils them to death ;) )
and thanks for the compliment.. :)
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Great jeans, err...genes. :-[ Scuse me,M'ette.
Mac.
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Great jeans, err...genes. :-[ Scuse me,M'ette.
Mac.
I think he was looking at your ass.
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I think he was looking at your ass. Attributes ;D
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Exactly! Youthful attributes. Jean-eticly speaking. Thanks for clearing that up Haz. ;D
Has there been an election where so much anxiety has been expended on who the Vice Presidential candidate may be? For either Reps or Dems? If the "RIGHT" guy emerges, would some of you reconsider McCain? Who would it have to be for you to back Mc, then wait for secession? Fred still listening for a call?
Mac.
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One last shot. This from today's news reports, specifically from the American Spectator:
http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13354 (http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13354)
FTA: In condemning the Bush administration's bellicose stance toward Tehran, the Libertarian presidential candidate was joined at a Capitol Hill press conference by a liberal roster that included Democratic Reps. Lynn Woolsey and Barbara Lee of California, Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas and Marcy Kaptur of Ohio. There was even an appearance by a contingent of activists from Code Pink, the distaff demonstrators infamous for their disruptive tactics.
One needs to be careful who your friends and associates are. Barr is toast as far as I am concerned, more over than Hitlery even.
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One last shot. This from today's news reports, specifically from the American Spectator:
http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13354 (http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13354)
FTA: In condemning the Bush administration's bellicose stance toward Tehran, the Libertarian presidential candidate was joined at a Capitol Hill press conference by a liberal roster that included Democratic Reps. Lynn Woolsey and Barbara Lee of California, Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas and Marcy Kaptur of Ohio. There was even an appearance by a contingent of activists from Code Pink, the distaff demonstrators infamous for their disruptive tactics.
One needs to be careful who your friends and associates are. Barr is toast as far as I am concerned, more over than Hitlery even.
Bummer, but anyway it is more important for us to tell the dems we don't want any of their socialism in a BIG way, THEN work on keeping McCain on track.
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The combined IQ at that conference must have been in the negative range. If I recall, I don't think that the "Lee Girls" can even feed themselves.
Barr may have strong 2nd Amendment values ... but as a wise man once said (?!?), he is a "surrender monkey". Having someone weak on national defense is a major derailer to the 2008 Presidential election. Libertarians and their laissez-faire stance do not allow for a safe America.
This is because radical Islam, who has been in the business of killing for Allah and Uncle Mo for CENTURIES is getting stronger. Sure, it’s only 10 million+ or so of total Islam that follows the nut jobs with the AK’s … but that’s a boat load of whack jobs that want to Sharia law to your zip code … or kill you trying.
I will not be subjugated to Islam under ANY circumstance. I will not vote for anyone that is weak on taking the fight to Islam like Barr or Paul.
We need to put McCain in the White House and then hold him accountable for the conservative values that he preaches.
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I had to play a little catch up here to see where this thread has meandered to, and I have deduced some conclusions from what people have said. Then I wrote a song about it. Wanna hear it? Here it goes.
1. Almost to a person, everyone here believes that McCain is a poor candidate at best
2. Some would like to send a message to the RNC: dance with what brung ya!
3. Some are deathly afraid of a possible Obama Presidency
4. That Presidency would instantly turn to the Jack-booted thugs department to confiscate the guns of law abiding citizens.
5. Boy are there some passionate, pissed off people!
6. Votes for one person can count for another person
7. Fear and loathing in the USA.
8. Typing can change peoples minds.
9. Bob Barr is a surrender monkey that almost wore pink to his last press conference.
10. Obama has big ears, smokes, hangs out with Leftist terrorist, Marxist, gives a great speech if he can see the teleprompter, might be a closet Muslim, and looks funny riding a bike with a helmet and low air in the back tire. (I just threw the last one in there to make it an even ten, but you should really look for the bike picture. It's a hoot)
Now that is a nice buffet. Pick and choose to fill up your plate. Here is how I see it:
1. McCain is McCain. He is not a conservative. He is an opportunist. He is looking for the people that don't identify with a party. Not being beholden to any party will, in his mind, put him above the fray (despite what it will do to the country). That being said, his policies will put us in the same boat as Obama. Just a bit higher on the boat (the sinking boat).
2. The RNC has and will move further to left if they continue winning. Your vote is assured 'cause they are running against a scarier guy. The RNC has no reason to respond to conservatives. They just need to be less scary than the Democrat running.
3. Obama is an empty suit. Said it before. Will continue to reiterate ad nausea. The man is Jimmy Carter with a messiah complex.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI5Eo9OMSgU (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI5Eo9OMSgU) Just a microcosm of his inability.
4. There are several people here in law enforcement. How many here would abide if such orders are given. A possible but highly unlikely scenario. Does the evil government know about all your guns? "No officer Jackboot. I was robbed last week"
5. I believe this goes with out comment needed
6. I still am working out the math. There is a large flow chart and a couple of dead folks showed me their voters registration cards. but I still don't get the vote switcheroo deal. "McCain still has to convince me to vote for McCain." Simple math there. It is McCain's to win or lose not the voters who do or do not vote for him.
7. Kind of another space filler but not really. America is great because of Americans, not the people they elect. We are the best nation on earth, bar none. We need not fear. We can defeat what ever comes our way (please refer to Communism, Nazism et. al.) Both parties and the President were all set for amnesty. What happened there? the defense rests.
8. Here on this forum we are bouncing ideas off each other much like our founding fathers. News Flash, I could take a leave of absence from work and type non stop with my side of the argument here and never change Ron J's mind. The inverse is also true (but I may be swayed with bribes of ammo or beer. Hint Hint.) We are better for our discussion, and what is going to happen is going to happen despite it.
9. This is the 4 ton elephant in the room that keeps my voter registration marked with an R. As dilapidated as the RNC is they, for the most part, still understand a national defense. As I have stated before the true argument in America should be between the Libertarians and the Republicans about the role of government. Pandering to Leftist to get publicity shows the futility of the Libertarians present foreign policy.
10. Laugh dammit! While this election has a lot at stake, we can still have a good time. With that here is the Obama bicycle pic
(http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/10/bicycle_2.jpg)
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The Obama bike pic didn't show. Just google Obama, Bicycle, picture and then laugh.
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My friend, that was one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Let me get up and running with my new job and I will see about the ammo and beer (and I'll throw in some cigars too)!
I think we have to make the Republican party listen. The alternative is not pretty.
Lastly, I think Mr. Bane said it best when he quoted someone that said .... "I love my country more than I hate John McCain".
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Vote McCain, Better an A hole than B - Ho
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Vote McCain, Better an A hole than B - Ho
Clothespins for everyone!
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Brosometal, regarding #4, I have seen law enforcement do some very un-American things in the name of emergency powers. Best example would be gun confiscations during Hurricane Katrina. Nope, I was not there for that one, but some here were. There are incremental takings. Taxes, microstamping mandates, ballistic databases, import bans, re-classifications to NFA, how about the lifelong ban on possession if your youthful argument with your wife of 30 years resulted in a misdemeanor domestic violence guilty plea? Then there are the Biggies that make front page news. Bloomberg, Daley, and damn near everybody in California plot every morning how they can finesse away your ability to resist their will. Did you know that Obama staffers have officially visited the Chicago ATF Division Office, met with those in charge of enforcement policy, and identified key advisory employees? You must know there are droves of management bureaucrats who would do whatever was asked to curry favor with the White House. Moving up from ATF to Main Justice require such connections.
The concern is very real, and cops do follow orders, just like soldiers. Independent thinking is neither required, desired or permitted. Just that simple.
Mac.
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DD Mack,
I understand that #4 is a real possibility. I also understand that soldiers/police follow orders. There are many factors that control the modern arena of ideas. In the early '90's there was Ruby Ridge then Waco. Ruby Ridge put many on notice without a lot of attention, then there was Waco. Several alarms went off then. Now the leftist mainstream media does not have a strangle hold on information. With the decentralization of information sharing via the internet, evil hate radio, and blogs back door channels are harder to use. I once again refer to the shamnesty deal. Another example would be some of the faked photos when Israel and Hammas had their donnybrook. Michelle Malkin and the Pajama Media blew most of those pics wide open as fakes. We the People are harder to throw one by, especially if we are looking for it. Last presidential election Kerry avoided the 2nd Amendment minefield because it was just that. Time is early. Obama was easing through the primary until the Godfather (Rush Limbaugh) began Operation Chaos. He as only won a couple of primaries the last couple of months. McCain, if he is smart, (jury's still out) could hammer him on the 2nd amendment alone and win in a landslide despite protest votes like mine. Keep the faith brother.
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Concerning #4 above, the participants have mortgages, credit card debt and all the other trappings of modern life to control them. If some choose not to participate, other than the immediate few, it will be after 2-3 mos. and if gross enforcement abuses occur which will cause some (small, moderate, large?) amount of public scrutiny.
England's guns fell. Austrailia's guns fell. Canada's guns have fallen too. Was a shot fired in anger to maintain those rights? If there was....it was too few to matter. There may be a hard choice guys...and fighting a prepared foe at the door on their terms at their time with one's family inside is a highly inadviseable time to exhibit righteous indignation.
As I wrote in another thread on this board, it is ironic that a group that greatly respects and supports law enforcement will be a target of a disarmament enforced by those who are like minded, sent by the people who have no respect for law enforcement, the military or the citizenry. Said in another way, liberal leaders who have contempt for both law enforcement and gun owners, will be the ones who use law enforcement to remove guns from law-abiding law enforcement supporters....the irony is that kindred spirits are set at odds by one who disdains the both.
I'm somewhat certain I'll get a response that if it's law, then it's law and must be followed. Towit, I would say that is the line of thinking that convicted many Nazi's after WWII. If it was wrong then, why will it be right in the future? Especially when we so passionately know that our government has been usurped by dishonest people who have promoted themselves upon an ignorant populace with lies, deceit and empty promises?
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Rastus,
Hopefully the Heller decision will help insulate us from the grabbers.
MB has a link on his blog to a well thought out 'what to look for' in the decision (which is predicted to be next Monday).
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Concerning #4 above, the participants have mortgages, credit card debt and all the other trappings of modern life to control them. If some choose not to participate, other than the immediate few, it will be after 2-3 mos. and if gross enforcement abuses occur which will cause some (small, moderate, large?) amount of public scrutiny.
England's guns fell. Austrailia's guns fell. Canada's guns have fallen too. Was a shot fired in anger to maintain those rights? If there was....it was too few to matter. There may be a hard choice guys...and fighting a prepared foe at the door on their terms at their time with one's family inside is a highly inadviseable time to exhibit righteous indignation.
As I wrote in another thread on this board, it is ironic that a group that greatly respects and supports law enforcement will be a target of a disarmament enforced by those who are like minded, sent by the people who have no respect for law enforcement, the military or the citizenry. Said in another way, liberal leaders who have contempt for both law enforcement and gun owners, will be the ones who use law enforcement to remove guns from law-abiding law enforcement supporters....the irony is that kindred spirits are set at odds by one who disdains the both.
I'm somewhat certain I'll get a response that if it's law, then it's law and must be followed. Towit, I would say that is the line of thinking that convicted many Nazi's after WWII. If it was wrong then, why will it be right in the future? Especially when we so passionately know that our government has been usurped by dishonest people who have promoted themselves upon an ignorant populace with lies, deceit and empty promises?
Divide and conquer worked for Rome. The only way to avoid it is to band together in advance and don't be at you "Home" when they show up.
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Rastus,
Hopefully the Heller decision will help insulate us from the grabbers.
MB has a link on his blog to a well thought out 'what to look for' in the decision (which is predicted to be next Monday).
z
If B. Hossein (Hussein?) OBuma makes it in office do you think they will care what the court says...I'm thinking they will pass laws like crazy, plug up the courts and drag it out for years.
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z
If B. Hossein (Hussein?) OBuma makes it in office do you think they will care what the court says...I'm thinking they will pass laws like crazy, plug up the courts and drag it out for years.
Right to keep and bear arms and ability to keep and shoot what you want will become two separate issues.
If Heller comes back as we suspect, the anti-gun folk will continue their work to manadate various bans/restrictions/taxes on ammo, inact smart gun laws, micro-stamping, and the like. They will agree that you have the right to keep and bear arms ... but they will make it more difficult and more expensive to do so.
This is why we need to make our voices heard at the ballot box AND to those currently in office. We need to educate all gun owners ... shooters and hunters ... to what could happen to our abilities (not our just rights) to responsible gun ownership.
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UPDATE: Bob Barr blasts McCain
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/18/AR2008061802117.html
"With regard to domestic policy, Sen. McCain really has put forward nothing that would indicate he believes in dramatically shrinking the size and cost of the government," Barr said during an interview on washingtonpost.com's "PostTalk" program. "He does talk a great game about doing away with earmarks, but that really does not get near to the heart of the matter of the massive federal spending, the massive federal debt and the deficits we're running."
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UPDATE: Bob Barr blasts McCain
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/18/AR2008061802117.html
After Barr spoke he went outside to rally his four supporters.
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I don't have as much of a problem with people like Barr and Paul, who want to leave Iraq because of things like Washingtons "Farewell address" Where he talked about "Avoiding entangling foreign alliances" they have some bases in the thinking of the founding fathers and I respect that reasoning. However I disagree with it, as did Thomas Jefferson after repeated attempts to negotiate with the Barbary Pirates (Muslims from North Africa, What is now Tunisia and Lybia) When repeated negotiations led only to further demands for tribute and bribes to the muslim negotiators, Jefferson became fed up and instead built 6 Frigates which instituted Americas first "Regime change" and was the birth of our Navy. We kicked their butts and they did not trouble us again until Khaddafi came along 150 years later.
I save my scorn for those "liberals" (Socialists and idiots) who either support Americas enemies or think fighting, even in self defense is bad.
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.......................
I save my scorn for those "liberals" (Socialists and idiots) who either support Americas enemies or think fighting, even in self defense is bad.
And as such, to paraphrase a post I made somewhere on some thread on this board, if McCain picks Bloomberg as VP McCain will prove himself totally unfit for the presidency. Bloomberg would be one heartbeat from the presidency.
That was a great analogy and history lesson Tom; the foreign entanglements comparison with avoidance contrasted to the true, liberal, scum-sipping America haters. There's been an implicit equation of equality between those two groups on this board, specifically in this thread and that's just not right. I wish I had picked up on that...hat's off to you Tom.
Bloomberg>BHO on gun control. But McCain has proven he lacks sanity in the past by his actions in actual tangible creation and support of McCain-Feingold, open borders, etc.
Time will tell. McCain must convince me to vote for McCain. McCain is doing a terrible job of convincing me. Time will tell.
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I agree to some extent with the Libertarian "theory" that we shouldn't be the "world's police agency". With that, we shouldn't be entangled with any country's internal affairs. But in our world today that can also lead us head first into a big ass bucket of sand.
Over the last two hundred years ago it had been easier to accept that point of view. America had the resources and the physical distance from any threat. Back then, war was a cannon ball away. Today it’s 18 minutes from a ballistic missile.
Today, we have some twisted Islamo-nuts that want to subjugate us and we can’t afford the view from that sand bucket. The way I see it, McCain wants to kill the bad guys. Obama and Barr do not. For this reason I am voting McCain. Add in a couple of other issues such as their stance on abortion, gun control, fiscal competency and that's just icing on the cake for McCain.
As to Bloomberg, he is not going to be on the McCain ticket. McCain needs to land someone that has conservative values and Bloomberg is not it. Where Bloomberg has a better chance of landing is with B-HO but he won't accept that if offered. He wants to run for President in 2012.
My hope is that McCain would pick Fred Thompson or Duncan Hunter. REGARDLESS of who he picks, it is a better option for our country than Obama/Edwards (Biden, Webb, etc.).
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...... REGARDLESS of who he picks, it is a better option for our country than Obama/Edwards (Biden, Webb, etc.).
Sorry, Bloomberg bumps me off the boat. I've heard B-HO speak and he sounds good with simple words and simple concepts in relation to a teleprompter. Answering anything complex or off-the-cuff and he is a complete idiot---which tells me he has handlers who will direct him in a presidency. This means there is some type of concensus behind him and the implications that go along with a concensus.
Bloomberg, on the other hand, is a dangerous, talented man (though insanely misguided towards socialism and personal disarmament) all by himself and is dedicated to our disarmament. Bloomberg being a heartbeat away from the presidency is too close for me.
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I don't have as much of a problem with people like Barr and Paul, who want to leave Iraq because of things like Washingtons "Farewell address" Where he talked about "Avoiding entangling foreign alliances" they have some bases in the thinking of the founding fathers and I respect that reasoning. However I disagree with it, as did Thomas Jefferson after repeated attempts to negotiate with the Barbary Pirates (Muslims from North Africa, What is now Tunisia and Lybia) When repeated negotiations led only to further demands for tribute and bribes to the muslim negotiators, Jefferson became fed up and instead built 6 Frigates which instituted Americas first "Regime change" and was the birth of our Navy. We kicked their butts and they did not trouble us again until Khaddafi came along 150 years later.
I save my scorn for those "liberals" (Socialists and idiots) who either support Americas enemies or think fighting, even in self defense is bad.
This too, is where I have a problem with the Libertarian Party. They are out to lunch on foreign policy. I often wonder if it is just a way of "branding" to distinguish them from the Rep. Party. (They don't need it. They stick out enough.) It usually boils down pretty simply: walk softly and carry a big stick/gun etc. You end terrorism by stacking bodies like cord wood, that simple.
On a side note, it is funny you mentioned Khaddafi. His historical foot note will be how he proved that the F-14 was a MIG killer.
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This too, is where I have a problem with the Libertarian Party. They are out to lunch on foreign policy. I often wonder if it is just a way of "branding" to distinguish them from the Rep. Party. (They don't need it. They stick out enough.) It usually boils down pretty simply: walk softly and carry a big stick/gun etc. You end terrorism by stacking bodies like cord wood, that simple.
On a side note, it is funny you mentioned Khaddafi. His historical foot note will be how he proved that the F-14 was a MIG killer.
Amen.
The incident with the F-14's and the MiGs was interesting. The pilots that took the Libyan MiGs down had just graduated 1 and 2 at Top Gun. Nice way to rejoin the fleet.
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This too, is where I have a problem with the Libertarian Party. They are out to lunch on foreign policy. I often wonder if it is just a way of "branding" to distinguish them from the Rep. Party. (They don't need it. They stick out enough.) It usually boils down pretty simply: walk softly and carry a big stick/gun etc. You end terrorism by stacking bodies like cord wood, that simple.
On a side note, it is funny you mentioned Khaddafi. His historical foot note will be how he proved that the F-14 was a MIG killer.
He has lasted longer than the F 14, He's still there (considerably more pro west, in fact he is assisting us in the war on terror) and the last F 14'swere retired last summer.
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He has lasted longer than the F 14, He's still there (considerably more pro west, in fact he is assisting us in the war on terror) and the last F 14'swere retired last summer.
He received an attitude adjustment, and the F-14s helped achieve that, along with the F-111s. They were able to retire because they had done their duty and done it well.
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Amazing how negotiating works better after you blow up someones house ;D
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Amazing how negotiating works better after you blow up someones house ;D
Sorry in advance for the Star Wars reference, but Princess Amidala referred to "aggressive negotiations" while firing at the bad guys. Too bad the lefties (Natalie Portman unfortunately included) cannot understand this in real life.
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Amazing how negotiating works better after you blow up someones house ;D
If I understand the story ... Khadfi's location was not public. He was with his family at a house that did not have indoor plumbing and while outisde taking a crap, a F-111 threw a bomb through his front room window.
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If I understand the story ... Khadfi's location was not public. He was with his family at a house that did not have indoor plumbing and while outisde taking a crap, a F-111 threw a bomb through his front room window.
This reminded me of a good book. While this was not mentioned, Killer Elite covers the covert intel gathering and all the muck ups there in from mishap in the desert in an attempt to rescue the Iranian Hostages to present day. A good overview. My dad is reading my copy.
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This reminded me of a good book. While this was not mentioned, Killer Elite covers the covert intel gathering and all the muck ups there in from mishap in the desert in an attempt to rescue the Iranian Hostages to present day. A good overview. My dad is reading my copy.
YES!
Smith did a great job with that book. Lt. Col. Bill Cowan is one of my heroes!
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This reminded me of a good book. While this was not mentioned, Killer Elite covers the covert intel gathering and all the muck ups there in from mishap in the desert in an attempt to rescue the Iranian Hostages to present day. A good overview. My dad is reading my copy.
Good book, I read it a couple monthes ago.
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My concern about Barr's candidacy is that he will become the Ross Perot of this election cycle, and split off enough otherwise-republican voters to hand B-HO the Presidency on a silver platter. And I don't know about anybody else, but B-HO personally scares the SHIT out of me!!!
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Yep. That is the biggest fear. Each vote that goes to Barr does not go to McCain and McCain needs all the votes he can muster to bit Obama.
A LOT of folks don't like McCain. Michael Bane said it best when he gave us a quote from someone that said, "I love my country more than I hate John McCain."
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I posted it elswhere, maybe in this thread, i didn't check, Better an A hole than a B Ho. :(
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I posted it elswhere, maybe in this thread, i didn't check, Better an A hole than a B Ho. :(
I can be a bit dense sometimes. I just got it. To help others in a similar situation an alternate spelling may help: Better an A HO than a B HO
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I can be a bit dense sometimes. I just got it. To help others in a similar situation an alternate spelling may help: Better an A HO than a B HO
Thanks for the help Bros, but most of us are not as 'challenged' as you! (http://www.mazeguy.net/silly/razz.gif) (http://www.mazeguy.net/silly/upsidedown.gif)
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...............Michael Bane said it best when he gave us a quote from someone that said, "I love my country more than I hate John McCain."
Did you hear what MB said if Bloomberg is McCain's running mate?
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Did you hear what MB said if Bloomberg is McCain's running mate?
No ... please share!
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Since it's been a bit and my internet connection has slowed to a crawl....I can't relay just based on my memory. If you've the time to look it was either on his blog or on the 18th or 11th Downrange Radio progs. Sorry...put it out there then had to back off...but it's there.
Gotta look into the DirecTV satellite...this Wildblue fair use thing is anything but fair.
Ken
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A vote for Barr is a vote for B-Ho.
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A vote for Barr is a vote for B-Ho.
Yes.
Consider this: Bloomberg is VP for McCain. McCain passes on and Bloomberg becomes president.
OK...which would you rather have? Gun-hating Democrat with Republican's pushing back or gun-hating Republican with Democrat's joining in. In which scenario do you lose the most?
Democrat's have written off our votes or...have submitted socially conservative reps. Republicans have taken us for granted and sold out our borders. If we have the Bloomberg scenario as VP...and we once again fall on our swords and support them...then will they take us for granted if Bloomberg becomes prez and goes after us (and losening the borders..if that's possible)? Can you be certain?
This is as bad a suite of choices as has ever been. Never thought I would say that I'd support a JFK or LBJ...but it's so bad the answer in today's election is yes (now I gotta spit).
Separate rant on: Either side will raise our taxes because neither side will cut spending. The U.S. Peso Dollar is in such bad shape that further collapse will result in tremendous personal economic damage with accompanying social upheaval. Rant off.
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Yes.
Consider this: Bloomberg is VP for McCain. McCain passes on and Bloomberg becomes president.
OK...which would you rather have? Gun-hating Democrat with Republican's pushing back or gun-hating Republican with Democrat's joining in. In which scenario do you lose the most?
Democrat's have written off our votes or...have submitted socially conservative reps. Republicans have taken us for granted and sold out our borders. If we have the Bloomberg scenario as VP...and we once again fall on our swords and support them...then will they take us for granted if Bloomberg becomes prez and goes after us (and losening the borders..if that's possible)? Can you be certain?
This is as bad a suite of choices as has ever been. Never thought I would say that I'd support a JFK or LBJ...but it's so bad the answer in today's election is yes (now I gotta spit).
Separate rant on: Either side will raise our taxes because neither side will cut spending. The U.S. Peso Dollar is in such bad shape that further collapse will result in tremendous personal economic damage with accompanying social upheaval. Rant off.
McCain will not pick Bloomberg. I would almost be willing to bet you that HazCat gets the nod before I do or Bloomberg.
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HAZCAT??!??!??!!
(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/thud.gif)
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HAZCAT??!??!??!!
(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/thud.gif)
I think she wants you to quit clawing the posts ;D
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I would take fur balls to Bloomberg anyday. ;)
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I would take fur balls to Bloomberg anyday. ;)
We'de have to take the fur balls but also take someone who licks his balls too remember.. :P
Did I actually say that on national internet? ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's okay Hazzy~~ (http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/comfort.gif) you can cough up and lick anything you want to on yourself..as long as we don't have to put up with Bloomberg. ;D ;D
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Interesting comments from everyone. I will vote for McCain. Don't particularly like him but believe Obama is a great threat to this country. I would hate for Obama to be in a position to put more left-wing judges in the federal courts and the Supreme Court. Imagine what they would do if the Supreme Court had a left-wing liberal majority.
The situation on our southern border could be fixed or controlled pretty easy but politically will probably never be. I am sure there will be a lot of disagreements with my comments, but. Why do we have an illegal immigration problem? Why do we have a drug smuggling problem? Simple, people in Mexico and Central America mainly come here to better their ecomonic situation or simply to keep them and their families from starving. Drugs keep coming in because we in the United States want them and are willing to do anything, pay anything to get them. Too many people are making a lot of money of illegal drugs and illegal immigrants which makes it impossible to control. Building fences, lining the border with military and Border Patrol will not take care of the problem.
Too many businesses, farms, ranches, packing plants and other businesses are making a lot of money off illegal immigrants. Our process for granting requests for legal immigration is broken. It is taking approximately 3 to 5 years for someone to get a visa to come work and live here. How do we fix it? What about if we would allow our embassies and consulates to issue permits to people that want to come in legally, enter them into databases and allow them entrance. We would know who is coming in, tax them and be able to track them. What if we made it illegal for businesses to hire illegal immigrants and punish businesses who do hire them. Dry up the work market for illegals. This illegal problem has been developing for the last half century and we have allowed it because it suited our needs/wants. Now we are all upset and want to throw/kick people out that have been here for ten/twenty/thirty and forty years, whose descendents are born American citizens and have served and died for this country.
I guess by now most have gathered that I am of Mexican descent. I have seen the immigration situation all my life and what these people do and their contributions have been. Of course, there are bad ones, just like we have bad ones. I have heard comments of the corruption in Mexico and it is true. But, what about this country, how bad is corruption here. Probably as bad but not out in the open as over there or other places. That in and of it's self holds us back quite a bit.
Back to the election, for us that treasure our 2nd Amendment, we are now at another crucial crossroad in regards as to who leads and controls this country. The Clintons, Obamas, Kennedys, Schumers, Bloombergs, Dalys and the UN are working and will keep working on destroying the 2nd Amendment, we cannot let them. Need to support the candidates that believe in the our cause. As others have mentioned on this and other forums, they are working on how to cirumvent the ruling by the Supreme Court and take our guns away, assualt-weapons ban is just one.
With all our warts and bumps, we still have the best country in the world.
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I'm glad you said you are of Mexican descent. I lived in Ca. for a couple years, working in a Sheet metal shop with people mostly of Mexican descent, many were Illegal, (The Company did not have to pay them as much as they did me, nor pay benifits) All were VERY nice people and hard workers. But they were not supposed to be here.
Do you have any suggestions beyond streamlining the application process (Which is a very good idea ).
My own is to make Mexico accept 2 liberals and a welfare case in exchange for every Mexican worker.
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Desert Marine is right on the x-ring. Complicated issue where both sides are right and wrong.
"We'de have to take the fur balls but also take someone who licks his balls too remember.. "
On the INTERNATIONAL Internet nonetheless! All the same, I think that quote has a lot more information than I need to know. :o
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Desert Marine is right on the x-ring. Complicated issue where both sides are right and wrong.
"We'de have to take the fur balls but also take someone who licks his balls too remember.. "
On the INTERNATIONAL Internet nonetheless! All the same, I think that quote has a lot more information than I need to know. :o
I don't think we are wrong to try to maintain our border security, nor do I think people of ANY nationality are wrong to try to improve their lot in life. I think it is wrong for people who legally have no right to be here to be allowed to stay, let alone receive ANY benifits. However, as Desert Marine points out this would not be happening if business owners and democratic politicians did not benifit from it, that is not right either.
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A few years ago, I checked the INS website for regulations for obtaining work permits and residency in the US. Quite a few ways to do it but at each page INS had a note stating that they were backlogged and waiting periods were over two years. Imagine what the waiting period is now, that waiting periods between 3 and five years. If a person has a degree, doctor, lawyer and such it is easier to get residency or if your occupation is needed here. For the ordinary person, no such luck. INS needs to be fixed, the backlog brought to manageable level and that takes money which politicians are unwilling to spend, since that probably does not get them votes. For me, the correct answer is that politicians need to work for the good of the country and not who pays them more and what gets them votes and come up with sensible and workable solutions. That will never happen.
If a small fence like the Berlin Wall could not keep people looking for freedom in East Berlin, don't think a 1000+ mile fence is going to keep people who are hungry from coming in.
No it is not right for people without legal right to come in to come in. Yes, we do need border security to protect us from the criminal and the terrorist. Do we become a walled-in country on both the north and south borders? The successful attacks against us were carried out thru Canada. I haven't heard of a movement or plan to close that border.
Another part is that we need to bolster our intelligence gathering capabilites that Carter and Slick Willy dismantled. We need to know what is going on north and south of our borders inorder to respond.
I know a lot of illegals and they are hard working people. They keep quiet, mind their business and work two to three jobs. The jobs they do are the ones that we the citizens, do not want. I don't know how many are receiving benefits without working. I know they pax taxes, federal, state and local. They overpay on income, they can't file for excess payments and cannot collect Social Security. In the 1950's, the US had a worker program with Mexico where they could come work for two years and go home. Part of the program was that the worker would pay Social Security and receive benefits when they became of age. The people who participated have reached age requirements and the US reneged on the deal. That is a sample of the attitude that the US has had towards Mexico and Central America. That attitude has influenced our policies towards immigration.
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This is a hard problem to deal with. As DesertMarine stated, most of the jobs these people do, are ones that none of us want. I think alot of the illegals work in agricultural. As far as punishing the employer, if they knowingly employee illegals, yes. More often than not, they are provided false papers.
If the government would streamline the H2-A program, I feel most companies would use it. There has been a lot of discussion on this, but with the election coming up, no members of congress want to do or say anything that might cost them a vote. It's this lack of backbone that has gotten us where we are today. It's to bad that most of our elected officials only want to get re-elected. I say most, because there are some who want to do what's right, that is, do what I think is right.
Just my two cen...er 1.5...er...better stop before it's all gone.
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Desert Marine, I agree with your analysis of how we got to this point with immigration. However not all illegals are quiet, hard working people who do jobs nobody wants. Our jails are disproportionately packed with exceptions to your claim. It is not because they are Hispanic. It is because they are anonymous. Imagine how drivers would change their behavior if there was no longer a requirement to register and license plate your vehicle? Asphalt chaos.
Somebody legally here did those manual labor jobs before the cheap labor tide came in. Right? Wonder what those citizens are doing for a living now? Not working? On welfare? We need MORE government programs!!! We need more taxpayer funded initiatives!! It is all around us. We pay for this coming and going.
Government loves to grow. Current lax immigration policy allows government to gorge itself, while sincerely pretending to lament the loss of control over who comes in and who does not.
Here is the thing. It is not a matter of speeding up paperwork. The immigration system was established with a goal of permitting in the number of people, with selected talents and skills, to find a welcome greeting among citizens who would assimilate them into society. Calculations based on economic and social factors to set the admission standards worked well for most of the life span of this country. We are now having to deal with a Land Run environment where the niceties of civilized society are a routine casualty. There will be tragedies and Justice will suffer in our attempt to separate compassion from outright greed.
What I do not understand, and don't know where to learn, is why Mexico is the way it is? Simple question with a complex answer I'm sure, but I'd still like to know. Why are the hard working people poor? Why is there no work? The simple answer of "corruption" is all I have heard and does nothing to actually convey understanding. Perhaps the US citizen would be more inclined to get involved in a solution, both here and there, if we understood. The administration has done a crappy job educating the public on this issue in my opinion, which has resulted in lack of support for changes in the system.
Anyway, I'm for Romney for VP.
Mac.
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Good points DDMack. I don't know about the disproportionately numbers of illegals in our jails. Reports that I have heard about point to very low percentages of illegals in jail. What I have seen is that illegals committing are getting a lot more reporting with emphasis on how bad illegals are. I mainly watch Fox News and CNN and both are doing it. They have both tapered off but last year and earlier this year that was their main topic. I guess it is old news now so they have moved on to other topics.
After the Guest Worker Program (Bracero Program) of the 1950s expired, people started coming over illegally to work. The Mexican-American people were doing most of the agricultural work in the Southwest and West I don't know about the South or Florida. That was my parents generation. My generation started to get educated and moving out of those jobs. Now very few if any Mexican-Americans of the current generation do that type of work unless they own the farms or ranches. Big void in work force. Mexico had a stable and growing economy in the 1940's and 1950's. For some reason, they went down, probably a lot of factors with corruption being a big factor along with others. People got hungry and started looking and moving to where jobs were available.
Illegal immigaration is a problem that took 50 to 60 years to get us to where we are. It is only after 9/11 that illegal immigration started getting attention. What is the best answer? To me that would be for Mexico's economy to start growing and taking care of their own citizens but highly unlikely. With the crime situation over there, don't see much possibility of anything good happening. Again, I'll point to us being part of the problem. If the US did not have the drug problem that we have people around the world would not be fighting to provide us with the drugs that we want. No market, no problem. Seems like the new Mexican President is trying to do something about it.
Illegal immigration and drugs are huge problems and maybe the best solutions might come up with the US, Mexico and other suppling countries getting together and attempt to solve them.
Well, Romney might not be a bad choice. I really haven't thought much of who for VP. My main fear is that Obama will win and we'll have to oil up our toys for when we start getting hit again.
Like good discussions. Lots to learn.
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Thanks for the insight. I wish we could resolve all these issues for the rest of Humanity, but, one day at a time. I visited Carlbad one time with my first wife...saw lots of bats!! Wish she had flown off with the rest of them. Anyway, keep shootin'
Mac.
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I understand the flying thought. Wish mine would have done the same thing. I finally flew away. Went shooting today, I put a new upper with 16" barrel on my Olympic AR. Put together break-in ammo with 50 & 52 grain bullets and different powders. No attempt at accurate load. Got a 9 round 2" group & 100 meters with six of them just over 1". Anxious to see what it will do when I find the load it likes.
Thanks.
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I would be REAL happy with that group.
Mac.
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I am hoping for 1" consistent groups and would love 3/4" groups. I love small groups with a good balance between power and accuracy. With the 24" barrel, could hit 1 1/2" gong at 200 meters consistently. Using 6/5 X 20 Leupold scope. But rifle too heavy and could only shoot from bench. This will be a fun gun. I can always switch uppers.
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AR's, 1911's and 10/22's are like "Leggo's" ;D
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AR's, 1911's and 10/22's are like "Leggo's" ;D
And a lot more fun.
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And a lot more fun.
Useful as well ;D
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FREEDOM FOR ALL or freedom for none.
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UPDATE: Rasmussen: Libertarians favor Obama over McCain, 53/38
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/libertarians_favor_obama_and_other_looks_at_election_2008
Talk amongst yourselves....
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They just polled the Libertarians that answered the phone. The rest were at work.
Mac.
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Mornin', Mac.
Gonna be a hot sweaty one here today. It's already 79 degrees and 79% humidity!
As to the polls. I find that most people decline to take them so the results are skewed at best. Look at most of the recent elections v the polls - not even close.
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Afternoon Haz. Sorry I missed this earlier. Been out poisoning Kudzu. Since you brought up the alleged privacy/secrecy of the ballot box, (Well, it was on my mind) when I went to the polls last time, I had to give my name. The lady tore out my pre-printed name tag, placed it on a permission to vote form, which I took to the next lady, who wrote down a sequence number from form 1 onto my ballot.
After voting, my bar coded ballot was eaten by the voting machine. I hope the machine voted for my choices. Anyway, it sure seems that I could determine who voted for whome if I had access to their records.
Mac.
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Hazcat, how hot did it get over there? It was around 94 with 36% humidity here in the desert. No fun. Typical is 100 to 105 with about 10% humidity.
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UPDATE: Rasmussen: Libertarians favor Obama over McCain, 53/38
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/libertarians_favor_obama_and_other_looks_at_election_2008
Talk amongst yourselves....
From the story:
In June, Rasmussen Reports asked 15,000 Likely Voters if they were fiscally conservative, moderate, or liberal and if they were socially conservative, moderate, or liberal. This created a total of 16 possible combinations (not sure was a fourth option for both questions). However, 87% of voters fit into one of seven combinations. Libertarians, defined as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, are the smallest of these seven combinations.
The Liberatarians were a manufactured quantity along with others. The labels were placed by the reporter in search of a story (polls are snapshots taken to create news). Just for a point of reference, a friend, a lefty/liberal friend would describe himself as "fiscally conservative and socially liberal", but the funny thing is he always thinks there should be a law, or government should solve that problem etc. Grains of salt my friends. Most news must be taken with them, but I digress.....KNIBB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!